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In the new Fasttrack a proposal to send D stock cars to G Stock? Are they moving the present G Stock cars to H? Are  they telling us a stock 140 hp Cavalier is the same as a supercharged Cobalt?  They have the balls to move the  HONDA Del sol with the Vtec to H? What are they smokin' ?  How do they pick and choose ? Save me " write a letter to the SCCA " crap and beating the dead horse pix crap - they are just plain out of their mind!

Apparently people like you and me can't see the "big picture"

 

 

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Brian Cembor
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!
1991 Integra LS... STS?

I don't know about the 'big picture', but am willing to give it a month to see the proposal for 2010 to get an idea of where Stock is heading.

As to 140HP Cavaliers - who cares?

As to the Del Sol - betting that someone wrote a letter.  Yes, it has 160 HP with a 2500lb curb weight, but torque is 111lb/ft, wheels are 5.5, and it has the torsional rigidity of overcooked spaghetti and that gets worse when you take the top off.    As an HS competitor, I have no problem with the move.  I'll even write a letter. 

BTW, I am betting that you are going to see a lot of the really slow GS cars get moved to HS in the 2010 proposal.

 

Typical reply--  who cares?  Typical SCCA response. If they would actually care about their members input there would be less negativity towards them. What you are saying is they should only care about cars you drive? Or you only care about cars you drive. Don't know or care what class you run either but you need to look at all cars in the class when you are moving faster cars in that class. And I've beaten plenty of "faster" cars with my 140hp Cavalier. Have been for many years.

autoxr2:

Typical reply--  who cares?  Typical SCCA response. If they would actually care about their members input there would be less negativity towards them. What you are saying is they should only care about cars you drive? Or you only care about cars you drive. Don't know or care what class you run either but you need to look at all cars in the class when you are moving faster cars in that class. And I've beaten plenty of "faster" cars with my 140hp Cavalier. Have been for many years.

Yep, it's true, nobody cares what class a Cavalier is in, because virtually nobody (except apparently you?) wants to autocross a Cavalier. 

I'd be more worried about the effect on GS cars that people like to autocross, or cars that attract the kind of people who might be interested in autocross, like the SE-R Spec-V.

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

Well the  answer  is  very  simple:    Write  your  opinions  to the SAC and the SEB and let your voice be heard.   It is very evident  that  there are as always agendas at  hand and if the SCCA autoxers do not agree  with what  these people are  doing and  do not like  what  is proposed write it.

The info  on the SAC and SEB  can be  easily found in the SCCA  website and  you can EMAil  your opinions. 

rollingthunder15:

Well the  answer  is  very  simple:    Write  your  opinions  to the SAC and the SEB and let your voice be heard.   It is very evident  that  there are as always agendas at  hand and if the SCCA autoxers do not agree  with what  these people are  doing and  do not like  what  is proposed write it.

The info  on the SAC and SEB  can be  easily found in the SCCA  website and  you can EMAil  your opinions. 

Yeah, I don't understand why everyone complains that they don't let us have a voice in this or that they make decisions without our input. The whole point of putting it in the Fasttrack is to get feedback and opinion. If it ends up being a horrible idea that everyone is against, I am sure they will modify or drop it. I for one don't see the big deal with moving around cars in Stock Classes. Worst case scenario if you own a car that is dominating your class it may get moved to a class where it won't dominate so much. At least you had a chance to dominate. The idea should be to make classes as dominant free as possible and hopefully that is the driving force behind this proposal.

It is unfortunate that the proposal is incomplete though. It is very tough to know what the overall direction of this plan might be and I think this will lead to a lot of early complaints due to getting only part of the picture.

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 LSB SMG E46

Murph, Nobody cares what you think either!  Believe it or not.   Since you don't care , no one else should?  I'm sure all sorts of people are waiting to race Spec-V's. Who said I wanted to run a Cavilier? I said I have run one many years and love beating people just like you!

Looks good on paper, but it would be nice to know if 1) they received the letter 2) if it is discussed or tossed 3)Put changes up for membership vote. I think they should have came out with the whole proposal instead of parts. It might clear some arguments up right away.

autoxr2:

Murph, Nobody cares what you think either!  Believe it or not.   Since you don't care , no one else should?  I'm sure all sorts of people are waiting to race Spec-V's. Who said I wanted to run a Cavilier? I said I have run one many years and love beating people just like you!

So, if you don't want to run a Cavalier, why are you worried if it's competitive? 

My point is that the SEB should worry about the cars people are actually autocrossing, and the cars that bring people to autocross. One person whining about a car that's already not class-competitive isn't going to sway the decision making process much, nor should it.

If there were a herd of Cavalier drivers upset that their car went from 12th best in class to 20th best in class, and they cared enough to write the SEB, I'm sure the SEB would listen. 

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

murph1379:

Yep, it's true, nobody cares what class a Cavalier is in, because virtually nobody (except apparently you?) wants to autocross a Cavalier.

Doug Harvey is pretty fast in a Cavalier over in Detriot, but he runs it in Street Tire H Stock.

I think it makes sense to roll D Stock into G Stock.

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Matthew Huizing
1995 Saturn SC2 - H Stock
1993 Geo Storm GSi - STS

they're no more kidding you than they're dead serious; it's only a proposal asking for your input.

If you have any input to share it will hopefully be better thought out and presented to them in your letter than it is here ... then again, maybe you're only friggin' kidding too

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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you." --Anonymous

I'm curious how some of this Stock class moving will affect the various cars' SP classing...

Example... for whatever reason, the Cobalt SS is in CSP... not DSP with other like-bodied cars. CSP is Miatas, and little 80s civic hatches...

 Not that I want to run in SP trim, but I know some that do.

 

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

Mark, you and I both know that writing letters has and will not change anything! Your and Murph's comments are the same- just because you think one car is " a car no one cares about" means no changes are applicable. I'm sure you and Murphh tones would change if affected your car. I wrote several letters over the years. It does no good, no one ever acknowledges the letter, and the members all have their own agenda. Like you said no one cares  about Cavaliers or any other car they don't own. By the way I don't own a J-body anymore, I was just trying to figure out the logic of moving all the cars to G stock, and leaving cars that should have been in H stock for years and not move them down? Maybe that is in part 2? Why do they put it out for member output if their mind is probably already made up?

 

autoxr2:

I think they should have came out with the whole proposal instead of parts. It might clear some arguments up right away.

 

Agreed, especially when they are asking us to see the "big picture" 

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Brian Cembor
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!
1991 Integra LS... STS?

Darkhelmet:

I'm curious how some of this Stock class moving will affect the various cars' SP classing...

Example... for whatever reason, the Cobalt SS is in CSP... not DSP with other like-bodied cars. CSP is Miatas, and little 80s civic hatches...

 Not that I want to run in SP trim, but I know some that do.

 

Stock classing really doesn't apply to SP classing much at all. Pretend that the SP classes are [UVWXYZ]SP vs [ABCDEF]SP.

-Mike

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Mike Shields
1993 BMW 325is | 92/192 DSP

P-Z:

BTW, I am betting that you are going to see a lot of the really slow GS cars get moved to HS in the 2010 proposal.

 

So that would be....

EVERY CURRENT GS car except the 05+ MCS with LSD

So is it time for a new stock class for the current HS cars? It seems that with the rising costs of towing, that streetable stock and STS classes should be expanded since a lot of the non-streetable prepared and mod cars are disappearing from those classes. If those classes were condensed and more streetable classes were available, it might add to the affordability of autocross and appeal to more new drivers. Mr. Hollis, any thoughts?

SoloRT:

P-Z:

BTW, I am betting that you are going to see a lot of the really slow GS cars get moved to HS in the 2010 proposal.

 

So that would be....

EVERY CURRENT GS car except the 05+ MCS with LSD

So is it time for a new stock class for the current HS cars? It seems that with the rising costs of towing, that streetable stock and STS classes should be expanded since a lot of the non-streetable prepared and mod cars are disappearing from those classes. If those classes were condensed and more streetable classes were available, it might add to the affordability of autocross and appeal to more new drivers. 

It may seem silly, but with the popularity of entry level cars on North American roads (in Canada for sure!), why not have a class for Chevy Aveo's, Hyundai Accent's, Kia Rio's, Toyota Yaris' and the likes ? If owners of these popular cars had a chance of competing on equal level that would bring a whole lot of new drivers to the sport ! Or maybe I'm completely in the woods ?

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Michel Levesque

1985 Porsche 944 - ES

One of the reasons we are picking the new Cobalt SS to run is the cost of fuel/trailering

Doing the local SCCA events, which National benefits from, is becoming expensive. A local event is now way over $100 for me once you figure everything in. I need to reduce that cost. Cost for JUST tire wear and entry fee's and fuel to and from the site for the tow rig and the super unleaded for the car is easily that much money now. I am not even figuring in car set up stuff/wheels/alignments/shock work etc. It is HORRIBLY expensive to run a car that is nationally competitive.

Cobalt: Throw the tires in there and go. No trailering. Maybe STX someday to avoid having to change tires at the site but there is some high costs there too wtih setup stuff and tires.

One of the things that was nice about the Celica GT: Way cheap to run yet still a fun handler. Hopefully we can get the Cobalt set up to be just as fun.

We will likely trailer to Nats though. It is nice having the big trailer there and it takes two car's which spreads the costs.

FM

 

Ok, DS was restructured to give the high HP FWD cars a place to play where they wouldn't have to run against the AWD Diamond Star Trio (Turbo AWD) and RWD GS BMW's / 240SX / etc...  not too many years ago.

 

Has the remainder of GS caught up to DS.  Not according to NT / ProSolo / Nationals results.

 

We (the collective we) need to see a well developed reclassing structure floated for comment instead of a piece meal restructuring plan.  Then we can understand the effect and plan for the future......

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94 Audi S4 (not stock)
85 Bertone x19 (18k orig miles)
85 Bertone x19 (DSP car)