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Generally speaking, stock class is about new replacing old, and members of the club tend to show they prefer newer cars via their participation at Nationals and Tours.  Case in point, ES is our old car class, and it has been shrinking since 2004.  Requests to reclass an older car to a place it may become overly competitive will rarely, if ever, be acted on.  Especially if it is an older, hard to find car (e.g. 3rd gen RX-7).  When a class consistently shows healthy attendance at Tours and Nationals, the SEB must tread carefully on issues that could upset that balance.

The SEB's job is to keep classes relevant to what the membership wants to buy and compete in.  There are no hidden agendas, no black helicopters, and no manufacturer payments to board members.  So, if the MCS were moved from DS to GS, what replaces it?  IMHO, the remaining competitive slate is all older cars that will not show up in sufficient quantities.

-Steve 

I guess some people aren't worried about the classing of non-factory cars built at the port (or at home) and classing the car as a stock car. They might as well name the class something other than stock, because it barely resembles it with the non-factory built (street prepared type)cars that are allowed. And as for the GS class, let it be an all MCS class (oh wait- it is).

But wouldn't it be interesting for the SCCA to send a survey/questionaire to all Solo competetors to see their true feelings on some of these issues (or other issues that they might have with other rules/classings). I would bet that the board might be truely enlightened...

SoloRT:

But wouldn't it be interesting for the SCCA to send a survey/questionaire to all Solo competetors to see their true feelings on some of these issues (or other issues that they might have with other rules/classings). I would bet that the board might be truely enlightened...

 

So you're saying that the SEB should base their rules on what the majority wants?   That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. 

And how many of those who reply actually attend national events?  The SEB seems to set the rules based on results from National events (NT's, Pro's, etc...).  I don't think much would be gained by hearing from the locals.  Heck, in my local club we've got a bunch of guys in C-stock running Toyota Spyders.  I'm sure they would say to move the 1999 Miata, Solstice and MS-R up to B-stock. 

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2007 Mazda MX-5 MRS (C-stock)

ron:

     So what your saying then is that the integra type r should get moved up a class since it is obviously a class overdog. Do that and then move the mcs to D stock and everything will be cool. To me that opens up a couple of classes.

I'm a non-ITR driver in DS, and I don't think the Integra is an "obvious class overdog."  Sure, it's plenty fast, and may be the car to have under most conditions.  However, I think with the right course, right setup, and right driver, other cars can compete (like a new WRX, Audi TT, or a SRT-4 ACR).  I won't even start to claim to be a super fast autocross driver (I know I'm not), and I've run fairly close to the top in my SRT-4.  I also know that I have not fully developed the car the way a lot of top ITRs have been fully developed.  My car is quite good, but I'm sure the right person could extract a touch more out of it by tuning it better, and a better driver could probably get it that last little bit to make it competitive with an ITR on some courses. 

I also run ProSolo, and in that format, the ITR is definitely not an overdog in DS. 

I wouldn't support moving the ITR up a class.  DS is a great class as it is now.  I do think blown Mini's belong in DS.  No, they may not always be competitive on every course, but there are lots of events where they are very close if not ahead of DS times. 

First gen Neons would probably be very competitive in HS, maybe too much so.  But how about moving the second gen Neons back to HS?  Those things are a lot taller and a lot heavier than a first gen, and didn't pick up any power. 

That's my $0.02.

Steve Baumbach

mitchman:

SoloRT:

But wouldn't it be interesting for the SCCA to send a survey/questionaire to all Solo competetors to see their true feelings on some of these issues (or other issues that they might have with other rules/classings). I would bet that the board might be truely enlightened...

 

So you're saying that the SEB should base their rules on what the majority wants?   That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. 

And how many of those who reply actually attend national events?  The SEB seems to set the rules based on results from National events (NT's, Pro's, etc...).  I don't think much would be gained by hearing from the locals.  Heck, in my local club we've got a bunch of guys in C-stock running Toyota Spyders.  I'm sure they would say to move the 1999 Miata, Solstice and MS-R up to B-stock. 

 

Um, last I checked SCCA was a club.  Every member should have equal input.  We expect the SEB (and any SCCA board) to act in the best interests of the club as a whole - not just what us national competitors want.  That said, I think the SEB is doing a fine job.  Sure, we all have things we'd like to see changed, but will all of us ever be totally happy?  Nope. 

Steve Baumbach

mitchman:

 

So you're saying that the SEB should base their rules on what the majority wants?   That's the stupidest idea I've ever heard. 

And how many of those who reply actually attend national events?  The SEB seems to set the rules based on results from National events (NT's, Pro's, etc...).  I don't think much would be gained by hearing from the locals.  Heck, in my local club we've got a bunch of guys in C-stock running Toyota Spyders.  I'm sure they would say to move the 1999 Miata, Solstice and MS-R up to B-stock. 

WOW! You are scary! Let's put ALL the power in the hands of the SEB (the"government" of the SCCA) and not listen to the paying club members? Or as you put it "I don't think much would be gained by hearing from the locals." So what are YOUR requirements for input? One National event or more? Should you trophy at a National event to count? Do ladies classes count? What about frictionless bearings (oops, I didn't mean to go there). Should we just use SCCA rules at National events and forget the locals? Aren't the locals the ones who may later go to Nationals? Aren't we ALL locals (that may attend National events or may not)?

And we should just trust the SEB decisions without question (I do agree with them most of the time, and know there job is difficult). Disagreement is futile? How Socialistic can you be. Now that's STUPID! If the club does not want input from their members (not just the ones you pick), then something is wrong with the club! And I don't believe that!

 

SoloRT:

I guess some people aren't worried about the classing of non-factory cars built at the port (or at home) and classing the car as a stock car. They might as well name the class something other than stock, because it barely resembles it with the non-factory built (street prepared type)cars that are allowed. And as for the GS class, let it be an all MCS class (oh wait- it is).

But wouldn't it be interesting for the SCCA to send a survey/questionaire to all Solo competetors to see their true feelings on some of these issues (or other issues that they might have with other rules/classings). I would bet that the board might be truely enlightened...

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Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007-2008 B Stock National Champion

CamaroFS34:

[

Guess someone should read carefully before being snide to someone who didn't say "all WRX port-installed items are illegal" just that some (ie. "there are") are. Heck, "someone" didn't even say "WRX port-installed items," just that there are "Subaru port installed items," which could be 2.5RS or STi. <shrug>

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Jason Isley
2005-2006-2007-2008 B Stock National Champion

RX7 KLR:

 

As far as a survey, you think SCCA should spend money, in both printing, postage and man hours to send out a survey and tally the results.... Great idea, I am sure the staff are all sitting around the office with nothing to do. Better one, when you see something you like/don't like in FasTrack, just write a letter, that is your chance to be heard.

 

How much would a website survey cost?

We just need to get big D out of the MX5 and into something where his weight isn't an advantage. Like a GT3 :) 

Regular Mini to GS

Cooper S to DS  

:) 

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

First off, I wish people would STOP ACCUSING SEB AND STAC OF HAVING A SECRET AGENDA. Really, these people are volunteers and its silly to think that they are in collusion with the manufacturers to class cars unfairly. These people are our friends. Some of the comments in these reclass threads are damned insulting. Would you say that sh*t to these people in person?

OK soap box mode off. I think the SEB/STAC does have an agenda but its no secret and its for the good of the membership at large. 

New cars in the US Cars are getting faster. They have been for many years but lately its become extreme. 10 years ago there were very few 400HP cars. Now its where you start for high performance. Thirty years ago not too many cars could reach 100mph. Now a Hyundai Accent can. The only new car I know that can't reach 100 is the Smart ForTwo! When my Integra Type R was released in the US in 1997, 195HP was considered a big big number. Now, there are a boatload of small cars that make 200+/

Also because of safety and environmental issues cars are heavier and many manufacturers use the same solutions to the same problems. The car market is becoming more homgenous and fewer cars  really differentiate themselves in performance potentail.

Here's what I think is going on. So, given performance creep in the car market, what does the SEB try to do? Make each of the stock classes a moving target performance wise to keep up. Every few years they try to make add faster cars to each class. They admit that DS is "broken" in that they have not been able to find cars that beat the ITR. But they have been able to increase the speed in GS and HS. Because new Minis seem loke they have performance advantages over old ones the performance of GS and HS has moved up over the last 5 years. Its just that the same make/model is still the dominant car.

I personally think that Mini S to DS is not a bad move but isn't the Cooper an SCCA kind of car? Having two spec Cooper classes is not a terrible thing. And if a faster car (Mazda3) comes along to dethrone it that's ok too.

Let's face it. Why each car ends up where it is really is an arbitrary decision. You could argue long and hard for almost any classing so that a particular car ended up top dog. I just don't think that's what SEB/STAC is doing. They are stcking to their agenda - do what's best for the membership and try to move classes up performance wise to reflect the currently available new car pool.

It sure was a lot easier when sports cars were more agile than econoboxes :-)

 

Regards,

Alan

 

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Alan Pozner
Slow and proud

You still don't get it.  I obviously did a poor job making my point.  The point is, it's hard to judge what car should be placed where at the local level.  There is such a wide variance in driving ability that it's possible in some club, somewhere that a Yugo is the hot car for GS and everyone in that club sees it at the class overdog.   That's all I'm saying.    It's the difference between a large but uninformed majority making decisions versus a small but very informed minority making decisions.   In my opinion the small but very informed minority is still the way to go.  They were all picked because they are very dedicated and involved in our sport and as a result have access to more data points than most of us do.   You may be the exception.  Maybe you have enough experience, attend enough national events, etc....to have a good opinion on what cars should be classed where.  Just don't make the assumption that the rest of the members are just as serious/knowledgeable as you are.   I think about all the people in my local club and other local clubs in my area.  There are very few of them that are informed enough to make classing decisions.  You really want a majority vote from all of them?

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2007 Mazda MX-5 MRS (C-stock)

another example...the Honda S2000 CR in A-Stock.  Don't believe me?  Watch what this car does the next few years.

Why throw the balance in A-Stock off with the addition of a limited production car like that?

Honda.

Just an opinion!

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Brad Maxcy
Allen, TX
'94 z07 C4 Corvette

RX7 KLR:

CamaroFS34:

Guess someone should read carefully before being snide to someone who didn't say "all WRX port-installed items are illegal" just that some (ie. "there are") are. Heck, "someone" didn't even say "WRX port-installed items," just that there are "Subaru port installed items," which could be 2.5RS or STi. <shrug>

Right Karen. You made a blanket statement saying "there are port-added options for Subarus that aren't allowed in stock", leaving it very vague, no doubt in an attempt to make it appear as though Subi gets the snuff and Mazda gets the love. You conveniently left out the part where specific items are listed in the rule book and are allowed for the Subi.

Jason, I don't know what your problem with nit-picking my posts is all of a sudden, but if you want to read more into them than I intended, that's fine. Sorry, if I used a Subaru as an example, instead of researching every possible make with port-installed options.

Hijack over.

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Karen Kraus
2005 SCCA SEDiv FS Champion
2007 SCCA DSL National Champion
2008 SCCA ProSolo L1 Champion

SoloRT:

WOW! You are scary! Let's put ALL the power in the hands of the SEB (the"government" of the SCCA) and not listen to the paying club members? Or as you put it "I don't think much would be gained by hearing from the locals." So what are YOUR requirements for input? One National event or more? Should you trophy at a National event to count? Do ladies classes count? What about frictionless bearings (oops, I didn't mean to go there). Should we just use SCCA rules at National events and forget the locals? Aren't the locals the ones who may later go to Nationals? Aren't we ALL locals (that may attend National events or may not)?

And we should just trust the SEB decisions without question (I do agree with them most of the time, and know there job is difficult). Disagreement is futile? How Socialistic can you be. Now that's STUPID! If the club does not want input from their members (not just the ones you pick), then something is wrong with the club! And I don't believe that!

[soapbox] 

What I find scary is your apparent general attitude towards the club and the people who volunteer to do the stuff that needs to be done.  I've heard you on a couple occasions ask why SCCA hasn't knocked on your door asking what you thought about life in general.  Why on earth are you saying "How Socialistic can you be....If the club does not want input from their members....something is wrong with the club".....where the hell does all that come from???  What happened in your past that would cause you to conclude we are a Socialist organization?

How about this:  It's an open door policy, you have been officially invited "in" pretty much every day by many of the decision makers.  Always have been.  Where are your letters to them?  Have you not been encouraged to voice your opinions?  Did you miss all the posts here asking for input?  I'm not sure what exactly you want...you want them to say "Hey, uh....yeah, we messed up a bunch of stuff, made a bunch of mistakes, ....and gosh, we could really use your help in getting this all straightened out...please tell us what to do..."  Hee, hee.  There were a bunch of Advisory Committee openings recently...did you apply?

Want a poll?  Run one!  Send in the results.  I'm not on the SEB, but I for one would be happy to see that info.  Have a factual, complete, well thought out and specific proposal to correct what you perceive are oversights?  Send it in!  Seems to me the only one stopping you from being heard is yourself.

[/soapbox]

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

RX7 KLR:

Better one, when you see something you like/don't like in FasTrack, just write a letter, that is your chance to be heard.

And not get a tracking number or some kind acknowledgment that it's been received?  And resend, and resend and resend until eventually getting another FasTrack saying that the issue has been decided (and then see SEB posts on forums talking about how few letters they got on the issue)?  Been there, done that.  Got tired of banging my head against the wall.

 

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clyde
#198 AS Boxster S - in need of SpinGuard
TeamWTF?!

autoxr2:

SCCA seems to class some cars according to who pays the most contingency. Its all about money, not where the cars should be classed. There always seems to be an overdog in every class. GS was a much better class before the MC ended up there. One of the reasons SCCA is losing members. But as long as there are 25 MC running at national events the SCCA is happy and won't change anything!

Hey my favorite, it's back again!  The old "SCCA taking some kind of kickback from the manufacturer's" scheme.  Well, I just joined the STAC, and I'm still waiting for my kickback check!  :)

Were you around in the Neon DS heyday?  If not, maybe learn some history and get the story on how contingency affects classing and competitiveness.

 

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

clyde:

RX7 KLR:

Better one, when you see something you like/don't like in FasTrack, just write a letter, that is your chance to be heard.

And not get a tracking number or some kind acknowledgment that it's been received?  And resend, and resend and resend until eventually getting another FasTrack saying that the issue has been decided (and then see SEB posts on forums talking about how few letters they got on the issue)?  Been there, done that.  Got tired of banging my head against the wall.

I think you will see some improvements in this very soon, maybe now.  Resources have been added and everyone seems confident that this whole procedure will be significantly improved.  One thing I'm learning in my very brief career as a STAC member is that every letter is carefully handled and distributed to the correct committee, and that every letter is treated with care and respect.  Just an observation from someone who is still somewhat of an outsider.

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

First off, thanks to those that serve on the SEB and advisory committees.  At a different point in life, maybe I will have the time available to do what it takes to serve our community through the rules making process.

 That said, I think there is one recurring issue with the classification discussions.  Maybe the new SEB is different but, in the past, it appeared that the SEB was not interested in considering the impact that competitive development would have on cars that were under consideration. 

In the old GS, you had non-LSD Minis and Celicas that all had a lot of development.  You also had a 2.5RS or two along with some other cars that maybe did not have as much development.  When the LSD Minis came out, there were several other changes to the car that evidently required a different setup.  This is partially based on a discussion I had with Mark Chiles among other competitors.  Once people started figuring out the setup, the cars got faster.

 I don't have a lot of knowledge with what is going on with CS but it sounds like the same basic story.  Darrin's '99 was very well developed and he is an excellent driver.  It is really too early to tell how fast the new Miata will be but if the Dixie NT is any indication, it will be very fast and will continue to get faster with development.  However, I certainly don't think any knee-jerk reactions should be made based on the Dixie NT.

 

 

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Ma