SCCAForums.com

michel944:

It may seem silly, but with the popularity of entry level cars on North American roads (in Canada for sure!), why not have a class for Chevy Aveo's, Hyundai Accent's, Kia Rio's, Toyota Yaris' and the likes ? If owners of these popular cars had a chance of competing on equal level that would bring a whole lot of new drivers to the sport ! Or maybe I'm completely in the woods ?

I think you're completely in the woods.  Those people may show up to a local event or two just out of curiosity, but someone who buys a Chevy Aveo is not the kind of person who will get hooked on autocross.  Look at Nationals last year.  The two biggest classes were SS and AS.  Those are the kind of cars autocrossers like to drive, not dirt cheap subcompacts.

The big picture here is that the SEB is trying to make a new class up top.  Look at the classing proposals.  They're dumping all the straight-to-ASP cars into SS for 2009.  They're moving all the FWD DS cars to GS (aside from intentionally killing off the ITR in BS).  I'm guessing the next proposal will reshuffle BS, CS, the remains of DS, and ES (which are all RWD/AWD cars now) into three classes: CS, DS, and ES.  AS will move as a whole to BS.  Then they'll draw a new performance split in the middle of SS (probably right above the C5 Z06) and put all the cars below that into AS.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

Fastmike:

One of the reasons we are picking the new Cobalt SS to run is the cost of fuel/trailering

Doing the local SCCA events, which National benefits from, is becoming expensive. A local event is now way over $100 for me once you figure everything in. I need to reduce that cost.

Man I wish it were that cheap per event for me! 

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

autoxr2:

Mark, you and I both know that writing letters has and will not change anything! Your and Murph's comments are the same- just because you think one car is " a car no one cares about" means no changes are applicable. I'm sure you and Murphh tones would change if affected your car. I wrote several letters over the years. It does no good, no one ever acknowledges the letter, and the members all have their own agenda

All the letters I've ever written with my member number in them were aknowledged, and locals on the committees tell us they take the letters very seriously. 

so :p

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

I drove the SS last year... 350lbs+ in the car and still got 31MPG on the 1800 mile round trip.

the downside is that you can only fit one set in the car... so.. this year, I'm planning on bringing rains... and a co-driver, so no way I can fit all that and luggage in the SS... this year we're trailering the car... doubles my fuel costs, but now it's split.

I've been debating on what to drive next year... so many options. Want to see what the new SS will do with a good setup and good drivers ( go Mike! ) and maybe will order one in the fall.

 

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Brian Huber
2006 Cobalt SS-Supercharged
#58DS
Official car of One-Wheel Drive Racing's 2008 Solo campaign...
If you aint last, then you aren't driving this car.

DaveH:

The big picture here is that the SEB is trying to make a new class up top.  Look at the classing proposals.  They're dumping all the straight-to-ASP cars into SS for 2009.    AS will move as a whole to BS.  Then they'll draw a new performance split in the middle of SS (probably right above the C5 Z06) and put all the cars below that into AS.

This actually seems like a reasonable approach with one shortcoming.  Creating a new SS class with the Elise SC, Exige S and all the other stock excluded cars is, IMHO, creating the wrong class.  It creates a very expensive, hard to find the "right" car class that will be poorly represented at nationals and hardly any participation at all locally.  Most of the top drivers in SS don't own their cars, they often find someone willing to sink $75k into a car a co-drive it to win them tires.  There'd be a lot more GT3s in SS if the top drivers could find someone to buy one for them to flog at nationals.  That's what's going to happen to an upper class of exotics like the Ferrari.  One of these exotics is going to be "the car" in the class and only 2 of them will autox at the national level.

They'd probably increase participation more by leaving the C5Z, Elise, GT3 and Viper alone in SS (and state publicly that they aren't going to upset the class for 3-5 years) and then create a class between SS and AS with cars everyone not only likes to drive but can afford to buy (Cayman S...drool).  With the speed of the top cars in AS I suspect that even those, the GXP and the STI/evo, would make good competition for the current SS also rans...remember those also rans can't hang with the current SS crowd either. 

SS stays stable, New class for all the hot new sports cars that can't hang with SS and AS becomes the lower cost sports car class with cars everyone loves to drive.

 Just a thought...

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

TedDBere:

DaveH:

The big picture here is that the SEB is trying to make a new class up top.  Look at the classing proposals.  They're dumping all the straight-to-ASP cars into SS for 2009.    AS will move as a whole to BS.  Then they'll draw a new performance split in the middle of SS (probably right above the C5 Z06) and put all the cars below that into AS.

They'd probably increase participation more by leaving the C5Z, Elise, GT3 and Viper alone in SS (and state publicly that they aren't going to upset the class for 3-5 years) and then create a class between SS and AS with cars everyone not only likes to drive but can afford to buy (Cayman S...drool).  With the speed of the top cars in AS I suspect that even those, the GXP and the STI/evo, would make good competition for the current SS also rans...remember those also rans can't hang with the current SS crowd either.

But the SEB is not going to class car beyond differences of 0.5s on course.  That's about the difference between AS and SS right now.  There isn't performance room in between SS and AS to put a class.  So the SEB need to speed up SS to put a class in between. 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

SpyderVenom:

But the SEB is not going to class car beyond differences of 0.5s on course.  That's about the difference between AS and SS right now.  There isn't performance room in between SS and AS to put a class.  So the SEB need to speed up SS to put a class in between. 

Are you sure about that?

0.5s is a pretty big difference actually and amounts to a PAX difference of approximately .008 (assuming 50s course). Currently, HS is the only class significantly beyond a .008 difference from the next closest class. (In fact currently the average difference in PAX between nearest classes is <.006 - excluding the outlier class HS). And, we currently have 6 classes all separated by a total of just .017 PAX (BS, CS, DS, ES, FS, GS) - or twice that of the mentioned 0.5s. Whereas, the difference from BS to SS is .020 PAX.

So, if 6 classes are separated by just 1 second (on a 50s course: BS vs. GS), there is certainly justification to insert a new class with 0.5 second difference given the large number of attendees. In fact it confuses me why so many are upset about the possible merging of classes that are so tight. From an outsider's perspective (I don't run stock), I have to question whether members simply want to hold on to their advantage that they may have due to an imbalanced classing. Hopefully, it is just that people are just worried the new classing will be worse though and suffer greater imbalance. Maybe I am just optimistic...

I wish they could have given more of the full details rather than just part of the plan to be torn apart without the full picture.

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 e46
(STU in 2009 - Thanks SEB! :) )

I think we need to wait and see what the rest of the stock reorg is going to look like before passing judgment on the latest fast track.  Currently the Type R to BS looks insane and maybe it will look a little better when next months fast track comes out.  Or maybe a SAC member got ticked off by a Type R driver. Big

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Phil K.
2002 Camaro SS, #68 ESP

The Nebulizer:

0.5s is a pretty big difference actually

0.5 is not a big difference.  In my experience, that can be accounted for in fresh tires, fresh engine, course dependency, course conditions, outside temperature, rain, car widths, etc. for the best drivers.  Practically anything can cause a half a second difference.  Now imagine trying to class cars to the 0.2s mark...  

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

My point is the committees will likely rule they way that serves them best or classes they run in, because they are not concerned with anyone else and what they run. Most of them are not going to spend time to research every car in every class to make sure it belongs there especially when as someone put it " doesn't attract the type of person we want to run at our evemts".  Unless you run a "chosen" car or SS or AS most people don't consider you a "real" autocrosser. To hell with the newbie at his first event. Maybe that newbie will have a good time and get hooked and buy a Corvette or something, then SCCA will accept him or her? Congrats on your letter confirmation, I'm just stating my experience I've had in the 22 years as an SCCA member. It must have changed in the last year or so.

Wow, things are pretty gray in your world.  So sorry. 

 I personally know some of the SEB members, and they are good people and not in it for self-interest.  I know they spend countless hours on this ***, and they do indeed read the letters.  I've sent in letters and had acknowledgements.  The problem is pretty basic-you can't please everyone.  You leave a class alone, and people who buy new cars want a competitive place to run them.  You add them to classes, and the old guard is up in arms.  There's no way to win, so they do their best.  Hard to find, or grotesquely expensive cars as overdogs kills participation in a class.  Unpopular cars as overdogs kills participation in a class.  And there needs to be a stock class for the newer, faster cars that come out, or else we will become the ASCCA (insert the word Antique in front).  So all this *** needs to be juggled.

 Personally, I hope they leave ES alone for a few years.  If we can keep the numbers up, they probably will.  But if and when they do introduce faster cars, it won't be because of personal vendetta or gain.  sheesh.

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Jer
#196 ES
#187 SS retired

SpyderVenom:

The Nebulizer:

0.5s is a pretty big difference actually

0.5 is not a big difference.  In my experience, that can be accounted for in fresh tires, fresh engine, course dependency, course conditions, outside temperature, rain, car widths, etc. for the best drivers.  Practically anything can cause a half a second difference.  Now imagine trying to class cars to the 0.2s mark...  

But, they already do class to 0.2s (almost everywhere except between BS and SS). Here is a breakdown on a hypothetically balanced by PAX course with SS = 50 seconds:

SS = 50s

AS = 50.59s (.59s from SS)

BS = 51.20s (.61s from AS)

CS = 51.26s (.06s from BS)

FS = 51.89s (.63s from CS)

ES = 52.14s (.25s from FS)

GS = 52.27s (.13s from ES)

DS = 52.46s (.19s from GS)

HS = 53.79s (1.52s from DS)

 

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 e46
(STU in 2009 - Thanks SEB! :) )

The Nebulizer:

But, they already do class to 0.2s (almost everywhere except between BS and SS). Here is a breakdown on a hypothetically balanced by PAX course with SS = 50 seconds:

 But that's not the "bumping" order.  Just because a class is "just faster" than the one before it in PAX doesn't mean that the two classes have similar cars.  ES and FS is a great example of this.  There is about a quarter second difference but one is full of 1.8l small cars making 130hp and the other is big heavy Mustangs making 300hp.  ES should compare it's numbers to CS (but ES is a protected class) and FS to AS or BS. 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

PAX = GIGO

 

You cannot base any reasonable argument on PAX numbers (with apologies to Mr. Ruth). 

edj:

PAX = GIGO

 

You cannot base any reasonable argument on PAX numbers (with apologies to Mr. Ruth). 

So, if we ignore the only source of data we have, what should we use then? Internet speculation from potentially nebulous sources?

I for one hope the SEB considers PAX when making these decisions. It should not be taken as Truth, but it is a great source of data.

 

BTW if you think PAX is a case of GIGO not to be considered, I would recommend you not take any medication ever... nothing is ever exact and no data is ever near perfect.

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 e46
(STU in 2009 - Thanks SEB! :) )

autoxr2:

Most of them are not going to spend time to research every car in every class to make sure it belongs there especially when as someone put it " doesn't attract the type of person we want to run at our evemts".

I think you'd be pretty surprised about how much research they put in.  Plus, the whole point of "member comment" is so they can plug the holes in their research.   As far as dealing with "every car" in "every class" to make sure it "belongs":  There are just plain too many cars to make all of them "competitive" without having so many classes that the sport becomes a farce.

autoxr2:

To hell with the newbie at his first event. Maybe that newbie will have a good time and get hooked and buy a Corvette or something, then SCCA will accept him or her?

The great majority of newbies are not going to do well regardless of classing. 

 

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Bryan
2006 Chrysler Crossfire
DS #187
Yeah, seriously...A Chrysler
2008 C6 Z51 waiting in the wings...

The Nebulizer:

So, if we ignore the only source of data we have, what should we use then? Internet speculation from potentially nebulous sources?

I for one hope the SEB considers PAX when making these decisions. It should not be taken as Truth, but it is a great source of data.

Huh?  PAX is not the only source of information that we have.  In fact Rick gets his information from the same place that SEB gets it from: National, Divisional, and Regional results.  Rick puts his interpretive spin on the the numbers and produces PAX.  The SEB puts its interpretive spin on them and classes cars.  Same numbers but used for different purposes. 

 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

SpyderVenom:

The Nebulizer:

So, if we ignore the only source of data we have, what should we use then? Internet speculation from potentially nebulous sources?

I for one hope the SEB considers PAX when making these decisions. It should not be taken as Truth, but it is a great source of data.

Huh?  PAX is not the only source of information that we have.  In fact Rick gets his information from the same place that SEB gets it from: National, Divisional, and Regional results.  Rick puts his interpretive spin on the the numbers and produces PAX.  The SEB puts its interpretive spin on them and classes cars.  Same numbers but used for different purposes. 

Good point. I overstated a bit...

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 e46
(STU in 2009 - Thanks SEB! :) )

autoxr2:

My point is the committees will likely rule they way that serves them best or classes they run in, because they are not concerned with anyone else and what they run. Most of them are not going to spend time to research every car in every class to make sure it belongs there especially when as someone put it " doesn't attract the type of person we want to run at our evemts".  Unless you run a "chosen" car or SS or AS most people don't consider you a "real" autocrosser. To hell with the newbie at his first event. Maybe that newbie will have a good time and get hooked and buy a Corvette or something, then SCCA will accept him or her? Congrats on your letter confirmation, I'm just stating my experience I've had in the 22 years as an SCCA member. It must have changed in the last year or so.

This dovetails into my comment about Chevy Aveo owners et al.  It doesn't really matter what newbies drive.  Either they get hooked and work their way up into something competitve or they don't and don't come back, or maybe only do an event or two a year.  We don't set up the classing structure for the entry level of the sport, we set it up the for best people out there.  With 22 years of doing this, you should know that the thing that affects a newcomer to the sport's success the least is the car.  I can hop in our 80 hp street-tired Corolla and go outrun the entire Novice class at most of our events.

Unfortunately, this usually means running the "chosen" car.  Or at least a well prepped car.  Someone who argues for a classing change based on the fact that they're losing at local events (or some other guy's winning) when they're driving a half-ass prepped car doesn't carry a whole lot of weight.  Prep it right, show up for some national events, and then maybe you'll have a case.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

So what you are saying is if you don't have a fully prepped car I should shut up. Typical SCCA arrogance that drives newbies away. Also, I never run a half-ass prepped car and I did run at last years St. Louis divisional beating half the G stock Mini's. But again you are missing my point. It would be like classing all BMW's in one class regardless of engine size. What affects a newcomer to the sport success then ? SCCA annual dues?Sports Car magazine? Arrogant professional autocrossers?