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MTBGAEL:

You're trying to speed up DS by taking the current championship car OUT and putting it in a FASTER class?  You guys need to figure out what you're actually doing, or let us know.  Because simply saying 'let's put the type-r in BS' sounds absurd without some sort of clarification...oh, and it's absurd anyway.   

Who said they were trying to speed up DS?  I think this makes it pretty clear that they're trying to completely eliminate DS.  They're also trying to not introduce an older, hard-to-find class killer in GS.

DaveH:

Its looking like DS is being disbanded to make room for the new Super-Duper Stock.  The ITR is hard to find and has had a longer than normal run as a top car in stock.  It kind of upsets the applecart in GS.  I guess the SAC decided it's time to bury it.  I could see the 135 following it to BS, with the 128 dropping down to GS.  Not really sure where they would put the WRX, but that may end up being buried in BS too as it has a pretty competitive place to play in STX.  The R32 could go either way as well.  Then CS -> DS, BS -> CS, AS -> BS, SS -> AS, and we get our new SS class.

The whole push for moving the MCS to DS was that it was faster than DS. Now the ITR would "upset the applecart in GS"? Will people just make up their minds?

And sorry, but the competitive WRX in DS isn't STX legal with a 2.5L turbocharged engine.

If I had a clue what the "big picture" was, I might not be so irritated. However, since the July Fastrack is the "cutoff" for 2009 class changes, and we won't see an official inkling of the "big picture" until the August Fastrack at the soonest, it's hard to try not to be put out about the proposals.

BTW, how come no one mentions the abomination that is ES in all this "let's speed up classes and get rid of old, hard-to-find, build-to-spec cars" talk? The newest car winning there is a 1993 MR2 and a 1994 Miata R. If the Camaro deserved to die because it was last made in 2002, then can't we just shunt the MR2 and the "outdated" Miatas back into CS?

I'm sure the ES drivers would love that proposal just as much as what's currently out there on the board.

CamaroFS34:

BTW, how come no one mentions the abomination that is ES in all this "let's speed up classes and get rid of old, hard-to-find, build-to-spec cars" talk? The newest car winning there is a 1993 MR2 and a 1994 Miata R. If the Camaro deserved to die because it was last made in 2002, then can't we just shunt the MR2 and the "outdated" Miatas back into CS?

I'm sure the ES drivers would love that proposal just as much as what's currently out there on the board.

According to an SEB member, and apparently widely known (or maybe not), ES is kept to provide a cheap stock class to play in.  It has been well attended at Nationals, and with the recent success of the Miata attendance will probably go up.  For 5K you can get and set up a competitive ride, and there are a lot of Miatas out there readily available; in addition, MR2s are certainly not impossible to find, I have seen many come up in the last few months for sale and I'm not really looking.  What does it cost to play, competitively, in DS and is it readily available? 

All that being said, Karen, I understand your frustration.  I wonder what they will do with your Subie...?  :(

I actually just went through the Fastrack stuff, and everything left in DS is now RWD/AWD.  I'm wondering now if the plan is a major restructure to shuffle BS/CS/DS/ES into three classes.

Moving the ITR into GS would be kind of like moving the RX7TT into AS.  Would it kill the class?  Probably not.  Would it be competitive?  Probably.  But why take the risk for an older car that isn't very common?

Of course I can see the other side of the argument.  If everything else in the new BS-ES classes is RWD/AWD, what the hell is the ITR doing there?  But if you're going to do that, move the Cooper Works Mini down to GS too.

Robert Puertas:

slowSER:

Where is the precedent that older, obscure cars move to *faster* classes to make them uncompetitive? 

 Let's see, limited production factory "racer", 4 cylinder coupe, late '80's to early '90's production.  Sounds like an e30 M3.  Why is that car in BS? 

I don't recall when/if an E30 M3 was in a competitive stock class.    My '99, '00 and '01 rulebooks show M3 (no separation of E30 or E36) in A Stock, can't find an '02 rulebook, and the '03 rulebook shows them in B Stock separating/clarifying E30 and E36.  So at least for the past 10 years, the E30 M3 has never been in a class where it was really competitive with several different cars and moved up to a faster class to make it obsolete.  It's just been obsolete for the past 10 years. 

Pat

acrace:

Brian:

 

Thanks for all the hard work that the SAC puts in. Difficult job, to say the least. Maybe one of these years I'll submit my name for consideration for the SAC. 

Anyway, can you give us a sense of the timing for these proposals? When does the SAC and SEB expect commentary from the membership? I'm sure that it'll be after the next Fastrack (maybe even after Nationals?), but wanted to be clear on that. Also, when would the SAC/SEB anticipate reviewing the feedback and then putting forward the next round (final round?) of proposals? I foresee the "danger" of immediate emotional responses coming back to tthe SAC/SEB, without benefit, as you mention, of seeing the larger picture.

 Don't wait to put your name in;  We need guys to run blocker right now

 Feedback gets to us in minutes .  Brian Harmer handles this and we've gotten letters about this already.

If you have a "big idea" send it now; If your comments won't be altered by results; send it now.  The SAC wants to base decisions on results which hasn't happened yet.  We have to predict in March April May what might happen in June, July, August, and Sept.  Its all part of the rules process.   Its hard to anticipate what 2010 is going to be like when 2008 just got started.  Whats worse is trying fix things after the fact; The delay is huge.    We try to follow the trends and extrapolate what competitors want base on what they do; not what they say.   The SEB and all the committee members love this sport.  We are only trying to keep it current and relative and we do it in our spare time.  (Well, its supposed to be spare time)  The emotional comments are expected; people generally don't like change.  We'll lay out what we are thinking and the members get to influence the process.
 

bconners:

  We try to follow the trends and extrapolate what competitors want base on what they do; not what they say.   The SEB and all the committee members love this sport.  We are only trying to keep it current and relative and we do it in our spare time.  (Well, its supposed to be spare time)  The emotional comments are expected; people generally don't like change.  We'll lay out what we are thinking and the members get to influence the process.
 

This comment makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER with the proposed move of the ITR and massive restructuring of DS, based on what competitors have done in the class in recent times.

slowSER:

I don't recall when/if an E30 M3 was in a competitive stock class. 

You need to look further back in your rule book. 

It won BS in 1990 and then AS in 1991 before they buried it beneath the RX7 Turbo. 

I guess the point is that in stock form the ITR and e30 M3 are remarkably similar in concept, availability and performance.   What makes one a BS car and one a DS car?

BigB:

bconners:

  We try to follow the trends and extrapolate what competitors want base on what they do; not what they say.   The SEB and all the committee members love this sport.  We are only trying to keep it current and relative and we do it in our spare time.  (Well, its supposed to be spare time)  The emotional comments are expected; people generally don't like change.  We'll lay out what we are thinking and the members get to influence the process.
 

This comment makes absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER with the proposed move of the ITR and massive restructuring of DS, based on what competitors have done in the class in recent times.

What exactly changes?  Nothing in 2008. 

In 2009:  The ITR moves up (and people de-invest in them).  The also-rans in DS join GS where they are beaten by a Mini instead of an ITR.  People who invested in competitive DS cars this year get to run them one last time. GS has a few more entries from the cars moving down from DS but is still a spec Mini class. 

In 2010:  The rest of DS joins GS.  There is a mix of cars that can win: Cobalt, BMW, Mini, etc.  The upper class breakdown from SS to SS and AS, and the rest of the classes move down a letter. 

Look at SS and AS.  People want to drive these cars.  The SEB is looking at what people want to drive and is making room for them.  They are not looking at what people are saying or writing on forums - but where people are actually spending their money.  The two fastest open Stock classes account for 10%+ of the entries at Nationals. 

Robert Puertas:

slowSER:

I don't recall when/if an E30 M3 was in a competitive stock class.

You need to look further back in your rule book.

It won BS in 1990 and then AS in 1991 before they buried it beneath the RX7 Turbo.

 

I guess the point is that in stock form the ITR and e30 M3 are remarkably similar in concept, availability and performance. What makes one a BS car and one a DS car?

And was running pretty dang quick in '91 as driven by Russ Wiles.  I clearly remember Roger Johnson announcing AS.  After a run of Russ's, before he said the time, Roger says "Wow Russ!; welcome to Super Stock!"
 

Robert Puertas:

You need to look further back in your rule book. 

It won BS in 1990 and then AS in 1991 before they buried it beneath the RX7 Turbo. 

In 1990, I was barely legal to drive, and autocrossing was still 7-8 years on the horizon.  

Robert Puertas:

I guess the point is that in stock form the ITR and e30 M3 are remarkably similar in concept, availability and performance.   What makes one a BS car and one a DS car?

<shrug> Beats me.  Sounds like you have solid information to write a letter. 

Pat

SpyderVenom:

Look at SS and AS.  People want to drive these cars.  The SEB is looking at what people want to drive and is making room for them.

You can buy a 1999 911 Carrerra for under $25k.  It's fast, has good aftermarket support, will probably hold decent resale value, and has a back seat (or so I'm trying to convince my wife...)

Can we make that car competetive somewhere please?

 :)
 

Scott, jeez, haven't you ever seen "The Lion King"...you know, the old lion, eventually, is taken down by the younger cat...think "Circle of LIfe" and all that stuff...

JK, being serious, though, it is inevitable that the SC Elise come into the class, just as it was that the Z06 came in on the heels of the C5...how do you think that made C5 owners feel? Oh yeah, you know, firsthand...my bad.

EDIT: I just looked at what I had written and hope that it comes across in the spirit intended...just giving a friend a hard time...

I do think it is inevitable that the SC Loti join in the class and I do think it will put a significant dent in the huge numbers of C5 Z's we see at Nationals...which is a bummer, particularly as the class has looked so interesting, with the GT3, Elise and C5 Z06 all proving competitive. I'm not sure what the answer is, or the timing of implementing that answer, but right now the status quo is solid...too bad the C6 Z06 hasn't proven to be class competitive, that would have made things simpler, but no less painful for the C5 Z contingent.

mwood:

I do think it is inevitable that the SC Loti join in the class and I do think it will put a significant dent in the huge numbers of C5 Z's we see at Nationals...which is a bummer, particularly as the class has looked so interesting, with the GT3, Elise and C5 Z06 all proving competitive. I'm not sure what the answer is, or the timing of implementing that answer, but right now the status quo is solid...too bad the C6 Z06 hasn't proven to be class competitive, that would have made things simpler, but no less painful for the C5 Z contingent.

IMO, the problem is that we are replacing a very popular car with one that will be much less popular, even to the point that we will only see a very small handful of them.  Look at how few of the N/A Elises we have seen, even after Matthew won in one in '06.

Dave G.

talon95:

IMO, the problem is that we are replacing a very popular car with one that will be much less popular, even to the point that we will only see a very small handful of them.  Look at how few of the N/A Elises we have seen, even after Matthew won in one in '06.

Dave G.

Popularity and availability of cars doesn't seem to matter much. How many factory or port built MX5 MS-R packages have you seen?

SpyderVenom:

In 2010:  The rest of DS joins GS.  

But why would they move all the FWD cars in one group and all the RWD/AWD cars in a second group?  I'm betting the cars left in DS will get stuck into BS, CS, or ES.

And everyone is lamenting the introduction of the SC Elise to SS.  You'll have to deal with it for one year and then it'll get split back out into its own class along with all the other ASP cars.  There's no way the SCCA will bury the C5 vette.  It just won't happen.

So anyone know of any companies renting out SC Elises around September of 2009?