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Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you in particular were running a half-prepped car.  It was a more generalized, plural "you".  (English really needs a plural of second person.)

What affects the success of a newcomer is innate ability and seat time.  Essentially, how much are they willing to put into autocross?  Until you get into the higher levels of the sport, driving ability has a lot more to do with your success than the car does.  I was running my Evo in AS last year, and Tony Savini used to regularly raw time me at local events in his GS MINI.

We should class cars based on national competition because that's the only place the car actually matters.  Most local stuff, especially with beginners, the winners are determined by the driver, not by the car.  And the best drivers gravitate to the cars that are competitive in class.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

autoxr2:

So what you are saying is if you don't have a fully prepped car I should shut up. Typical SCCA arrogance that drives newbies away. Also, I never run a half-ass prepped car and I did run at last years St. Louis divisional beating half the G stock Mini's. But again you are missing my point. It would be like classing all BMW's in one class regardless of engine size. What affects a newcomer to the sport success then ? SCCA annual dues?Sports Car magazine? Arrogant professional autocrossers?

No, you shouldn't shut up, but your argument for classing a particular car shouldn't be that Joe Newbie driving it with little to no prep can't be competitive. 

I think what generally affects newcomer success is their willingness/ability to learn. 

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Bryan
2008 Corvette Z51
SS #TBD

I also think that the top level of the autocross world is one of the most helpful, outgoing groups that you'll find in any sport.  They're always willing to help novices out.  They volunteer their time in local novice schools.  They share setup tips.  Hell, Sam Strano has published everything down to his alignment settings.  They'll jump in someone's car at an event and do what they can to teach them to go faster.  Most of those guys are actually pretty humble about stuff.

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Dave Heinig

07 GXP Z0K (Thanks Rob!)

I agree about the top level guys being helpful and all that, but from what a lot of you are saying we shouldn't care about the newbie or the classing of cars that aren't popular because this sport is for serious nationally competitve drivers.I don't think you should base classing off the newbies, I'm saying there are obvious problems in G stock now without putting a bunch more problems in there. It's not right to look at just some of the cars, whether anybody runs them or not.

autoxr2:

So what you are saying is if you don't have a fully prepped car I should shut up. Typical SCCA arrogance that drives newbies away. Also, I never run a half-ass prepped car and I did run at last years St. Louis divisional beating half the G stock Mini's. But again you are missing my point. It would be like classing all BMW's in one class regardless of engine size. What affects a newcomer to the sport success then ? SCCA annual dues?Sports Car magazine? Arrogant professional autocrossers?

You seem to have this expectation that SCCA people are arrogant.  Since you expect it, that is what you see.  That is the way that you started out this thread and have continued the theme throughout. 

The people who do well at autocrossing are those that have some natural talent and are willing to listen to those around them.  You can't be shy, our sport isn't like that.  You can't be put off because you are 5 seconds behind the leader.  Are old timers and "professional autocrossers" a little standoffish?  sometimes.  But, IMHO, that is mostly because 95% of the people who try autocrossing don't stick around more than 2-3 events.  You don't have enough interaction with the novice before they are gone.  I've become "fast friends" with a lot of novices who didn't stick with the sport.  It's draining. 

autoxr2:

I agree about the top level guys being helpful and all that, but from what a lot of you are saying we shouldn't care about the newbie or the classing of cars that aren't popular because this sport is for serious nationally competitve drivers.I don't think you should base classing off the newbies, I'm saying there are obvious problems in G stock now without putting a bunch more problems in there. It's not right to look at just some of the cars, whether anybody runs them or not.

Car classing at a national level is done for national level competitors based on how those competitors are doing in the cars.  If there is a local need for a different classing structure in a particular region, that region can change the rules.  Many regions do this with additional street tire classes, Pro classes, Novice classes,  etc.  If your region wants to implement a "GS-" class or a "HS+" class to include your obvious problem cars in GS, then they are free to do so.

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

autoxr2:

Also, I never run a half-ass prepped car and I did run at last years St. Louis divisional beating half the G stock Mini's.

What do you consider "half-assed"?  I didn't consider any of my cars prepped half-assed until I prepped my Solstice.  Now I realize how woefully underprepared my previous cars were and even how much my current car can stand to be improved.  It was a matter of not knowing what I didn't know.   

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

autoxr2:

....run a half-ass prepped car

Did someone call me? 

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Scott Hoffman

HS '06 Acura RSX

I'm not sure - someone else used the term, I was just repeating it. But I consider a half-assed car is one without proper autox alignment, stock shocks, and a half-assed driver.

I don't have an expectation that SCCA are arrogant, just read these forums. I was just sticking to the what's best for me theme on classing that seems to be going on. Everyone has a different opinion but mine was quick to be given "who gives a sh*t about your car/opinion". Kinda strange?

Just a thought about HS...seeing that this is the class I participate in...

2007 Nationals, Top 6 competitors....6 different cars....

HS, is the ONLY non-spec stock class and at Topeka this year, one of 9 different cars could win it all.  Plus nationally, the class is FULL of very talented drivers with very nice machines...albeit they get 30+mpg...

So they wanna send a 160hp del Sol to HS, bring em on, because in reality, there probably isn't a stock del Sol Si in the country that isn't rusted out and it would make for one more potential candidate to take the top spot.  I doubt very seriously that it would be an HS overdog. 

As for the other classes, there are some strange proposed moves, but we all knew this was going to come.  We will all have to just take a deep breath and WOOOSAAAAA...WOOOSAAAAA....

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D. Scott Bourne
192HS
DATS Racing LLC
Kumho Motorsports
Ken Towery's Motorsports
Tokico USA

DATS Racing, All DATS, All the time!

ScottH560:

HS, is the ONLY non-spec stock class and at Topeka this year, one of 9 different cars could win it all.  Plus nationally, the class is FULL of very talented drivers with very nice machines...albeit they get 30+mpg...

I disagree, DS had five different cars in the top five spots, I believe. 

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

Off topic a bit but for the sake of accuracy, there was no Divisional in St. Louis last year.  At the 2006 St. Louis Divisional there were 6 Minis in GS and 2 in GSL.  5 of the six GS Minis beat Mr. Smucker.  The Mini Mr. Smucker beat was being driven by a 17 year old novice acting a tire warmer for his girlfriend's father.  The women were also faster.

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2002 Mercedes C230k, retired, 2005 Nationals STU DFL

1969 Beach Solo Vee and 1985 Lynx B Solo Vee

i completely agree with scott. my concern is, if a total restructuring of stock classes occurs and half of the current "uncompetitive" g-stock cars ( neon acr--protege mp3--celica---etc...)  get dropped to h-stock, then could  the current crop of competitive h-stock cars become somewhat 2cnd tier??----it makes it confusing for someone like me who is looking for a new competitive h-stock car and REALLY doesn't want to go through this again in another year  

Here's what I said to a couple of SEB members over the weekend:

Re-orgs always cost people money.  Major re-orgs cost major numbers of people major amounts of money.  With gas prices what they are and the economy where it is, is NOW really the right time to "fix" something that is not exactly broken in any significant way?  Especially if the result is killing off a "cheap" class in favor of another expensive class.

--Andy
 

ScottH560:

2007 Nationals, Top 6 competitors....6 different cars....

HS, is the ONLY non-spec stock class and at Topeka this year, one of 9 different cars could win it all. 

 HUH??

 SS:  Elise, Z06, GT3

AS:  S2000 AP1 or AP2, Solstice GXP, STi, C4 Corvette, Boxster S

CS:  Solstice, 99 Miata, MS-R Miata

DS:  TT, Type-R, WRX, Crossfire, SRT-4, R32, 330...

How is HS the only non-spec class?

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

Lynn:

Off topic a bit but for the sake of accuracy, there was no Divisional in St. Louis last year.  At the 2006 St. Louis Divisional there were 6 Minis in GS and 2 in GSL.  5 of the six GS Minis beat Mr. Smucker.  The Mini Mr. Smucker beat was being driven by a 17 year old novice acting a tire warmer for his girlfriend's father.  The women were also faster.

 

(OK, that's a little arrogant but IMHO a little funny too) 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

John V:

ScottH560:

2007 Nationals, Top 6 competitors....6 different cars....

HS, is the ONLY non-spec stock class and at Topeka this year, one of 9 different cars could win it all. 

 HUH??

 SS:  Elise, Z06, GT3

AS:  S2000 AP1 or AP2, Solstice GXP, STi, C4 Corvette, Boxster S

CS:  Solstice, 99 Miata, MS-R Miata

DS:  TT, Type-R, WRX, Crossfire, SRT-4, R32, 330...

How is HS the only non-spec class?

ES - Miata, MR2

 

The list would be shorter if you just listed the couple of spec classes.  LOL

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Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
1999 Dodge 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (just tired)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

You are right- sorry I did go back and look and I my memory has failed me again! Just goes to prove though a full-assed prepped Cavalier is not a G stock car. Which has been my point and why I prepped one to show that it is not a G stock car. I will tell you that I have trophied in G stock at Nationals(that one you can look up also just to prove to SOME people that I can actually drive and prep a car)  back to my original beef, when they move cars and classes around they need to go car by car in class. Including the cars some perceive as cars no one should autocross because (in their opinion) who gives a sh*t about them(back to the arrogant thing). New can of worms- Since the"women are faster was brought out- lets do away with the ladies class if your serious about showing up the males.

I think autoxr2 has a point and I have thought the same thing for quite some time.  Why not dump all of the obviously bottom tier GS cars to HS?  All of them have 0 chance of beating the top HS cars. 

I put in bold cars I think have little business being in GS.  I think that autoxr2 has a point that if a newbie shows up with these cars and is running against a Cooper S it doesn't take them long to think "this sux"!

G Stock
GS	Acura	CL 6-cyl	Integra ('90+) NOC	Legend
GS		RSX Type S	TL	TL Type S
GS		Vigor
GS	Alfa Romeo	164 non-S (pre '94)	1750, 1750 GTV	GTV V6
GS		Milano
GS	Audi	200 Turbo Quattro	5000 Turbo	A3 ('06+ FWD)
GS		A4, 4 cyl. Turbo	A4, 6 cyl	A6
GS		Quattro Coupe, Turbo	S4 ('92-'94) (100 CS chassis)	V8 Quattro, A8
GS	BMW	2002 (all)	318 ti ('95+)	318is, i (1991)
GS		325E, eta engine
GS	Buick	Reatta
GS	Cadillac	Catera
GS	Chevrolet	Camaro V6	Cobalt SS N/A	Corvair 4 carb
GS		Corvair Turbo
GS	Chrysler	Cirrus, V6	Conquest Turbo	Laser Turbo
GS		Neon, (all)	PT Turbo ('03+)	Sebring V6
GS	Daewoo	4-cyl.	6-cyl. models
GS	Dodge	Avenger V6	Conquest Turbo	Daytona Turbo NOC
GS		Lancer Turbo	Neon, (all)	Shadow Turbo NOC
GS		Shadow V6	Spirit R/T	Spirit V6 & Turbo 4 cyl
GS		Stealth non-turbo	Stratus V6
GS	Ford	Contour SE V6	Contour SVT	Five Hundred go to HS!
GS		Focus SVT	Fusion (6-cyl)	Mustang SVO
GS		Mustang V6 and 4 cyl. turbo	Probe ('89-'92) 4 cyl turbo & V6	Probe ('93+) (all)
GS		Taurus SHO	Tempo V6	Thunderbird Turbo
GS		ZX2/SR
GS	General Motors	All FWD models with V6 (all), Quad 4, Ecotec, or 4 cyl turbo engines, NOC
GS	Honda	Accord V6	CRX Si (all)	Civic Si ('06+)
GS		Civic Si ('86 and '87)	Civic del Sol VTEC	Prelude ('92+) NOC
GS		Prelude VTEC ('93-'96)
GS	Infiniti	M30
GS	Isuzu	Impulse Turbo ALL
GS	Jaguar	X-type ('02+)
GS	Lexus	ES 250	ES 300	GS 300
GS	Lincoln	LS V6 Sedans
GS	Mazda	323 GT Turbo Sedan	323 GTX awd Turbo	6 (6-cyl)
GS		MX-6 V6 and 4 cyl. turbo (all)	MX-6, 4 cyl ('93+)	Millennia S/C
GS		Protégé MP3
GS	Mercedes	190 16v	190, 2.6L	280
GS		C230 (190HP)
GS	Mercury	Capri, US V6 and 4 cyl turbo	Cougar V6	Milan ('06+)
GS		Montego	Mystique V6	Topaz V6
GS	Merkur	XR4Ti
GS	Mini	Cooper S ('02-'04)	Cooper S ('05+)
GS	Mitsubishi/DSM	3000 GT, non-turbo	Eclipse ('00+)	Eclipse/Talon Turbo FWD
GS		Galant V6	Galant VR4	Starion Turbo
GS	Nissan	200 SX SE V6	200 SX Turbo	240 SX (all)
GS		300ZX, non-turbo (pre '90)	Altima ('02+)	Maxima ('92+)
GS		NX 2000	Sentra 2.0L ('00-'01)	Sentra SE-R ('02+)
GS		Sentra SE-R ('91-'94)	Sentra Spec-V ('02+)
GS	Peugeot	405 Mi-16
GS	Plymouth	Acclaim V6 & 4 cyl. turbo	Neon (all)	Sundance V6 & 4 cyl. turbo
GS	Pontiac	Firebird V6
GS<