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after nearly two years of trying to set up and competitively race a ford focus in h stock class, it only took one run at the last race in a mazda 3 to realize that i truly have been bringing a knife to a gunfight.{ok, maybe a big sword, but still not a gun}. just jumping in the car for 1 run , i was 2.5 seconds faster than with the focus and both cars were about equally prepaired.also, the owner of the mazda{who is a much better driver than i am} was about 2-3 seconds slower with his run in the focus.   the problem is, a mazda 3 or a mini are not in my available race budget---after selling the focus, i'm probably looking in the 6000. to 7000. dollar range.  it seems like several guys are doing well with civics--4th and 5th generation si models and 7th generation ex models---are there reasons why the 6th gen. ex or si  models aren't as competitive??----also , i drove a 02 civic recently{ just calmly on the street, with  the owner} and it felt kind of bland, with vague steering and not a very quick engine----do these newer civics really "transform" into a much better autocross car with all of the "stock class" mods{ shocks,sway bar, r comp. tires.  etc}. i'd like to hear from some of the "good national level" guys racing the civics---thanks for the input.

I drove a 2004 (not EX though) last year and this year I'm codriving an 89si. Here's my summary:

89si: Plus: low weight, good suspension geometry, competitive power/weight, low cg? Minus: 5.5" wheels, has a rear bar but rear roll stiffness is still low (doesn't pick up rear wheel), very slow manual steering make fast transitions a workout

92si: Slightly more weight than 89, same wheel size, no rear sway bar (it has some long soft bump stops which help but probably not as much as the small rear bar on the 89), low rear roll center, more power than 89. Might work with the right tweaks.

96+: Heavier cars still limited by 5.5" wheels, no rear bar and low rear roll center so rear stiffness is very low. Exception is si version which is heavier but has 6" wheels and a rear bar. Some have tried it but not seen at nats yet.

01EX: Plus: competitive power/weight, some front camber available via legal crash bolts, small rear sway bar but high rear roll center so rear stiffness is good. Minus: vague steering and not much overall stiffness so lots of roll compared to Mini or Mazda. Not much different from 89si in this regard. Custom shocks and aggressive toe can be a big help but will not transform the feel IME.

02si: Similar to 2.0 Mazda 3 as far as specs, early ones had 15x6 wheels, later models had 16x6.5, some folks doing well on west coast but none at nats so far

06+: Slightly more weight than 01 but has 6.5" wheels, crash bolts available, lots of front caster, competitive power/weight. Several being developed by top drivers. A car to watch IMO.

IMO none of these cars will have the accurate feel and responsive steering of a Mini or Mazda 3 (my wife has a 3 hatch) but you can drive around feel

Chris

BTW, which Focus were you driving? I still think a minimum option ZX3 with the 2.3 could be a contender...

Financially, it appears we are probably in similar situations. 

I have driven several '89 Si's and you really have to drive the crap out of them to get what you need to be competitive in stock class.  Very similar to my formerly-stock 85 CRX, IMO. 

I co-drove a '02 Si a couple of years ago and was pleasantly surprised.  Good power, decent torque (strange for a newer Honda) and handled fairly well with the limited preparation this car had. 

Keep in mind, especially with older cars, you are going to spend a minimum of $2000 on prepping the car for national competition, not including wheels and tires.  On older cars, shocks are very important.  The same is true for some of the newer cars also.  That will eat into your car purchase budget. 

 Take a look at the results for national competition and through the HS looks good thread.  There are a lot of cars out there that have potential if you don't mind getting off the beaten path.  We're still trying to beat more out of an 11 year old Subaru.

---

Mark Pilson
owner of STS2 Honduh
co-driver of HS Subaru (race tires rule)

yep, 2 grand was just about what i put into prepping the focus---and i'll probably be lucky to get 700.00 back out of the parts on ebay--tell me more about the suby--i was considering one of those also--i drove one{stock--just around some back roads} and thought it could have great potential---it just seemed to be pretty low on power---1996 and 1997 impreza 2.2 right?---james wilson did extremely well with his---any particularly good or bad aspects about them?--other than obviously being great in the rain.----i think i could find a decent one for the price range i'm in

my focus was a 2.3 hatch zx3----before that, i had a zx3 with the 2.0 ----i sold the 2.0 and got the 2.3---on paper it looks good, but same problems,just more power.   the car is great up to about 90% of it's limit,  then just really doesn't cut it when you try getting 10/10ths out of it

Crash bolts are available for the 02-05 Civic Si's.   A friend of mine just picked up a really nice 03 Si for $6,500.

Yep, the Subaru is a '97 2.2L Impreza.  They seem to be a little harder to find than you might think.  I was looking for one before I bought my CRX.  I just wasn't having much luck finding one with a 5-speed.

Aside from the obvious no wheelspin advantage, it seems to handle pretty well but it has taken a good bit of tweaking to get it where we are fairly happy with it.  I like the feel of the car much more than a Mazda 3 that I have driven locally. 

I believe our car is a little heavier than the Minis but I don't know about the newer Hondas.  Based on our experience in Atlanta, I'm pretty sure we are down on acceleration from many of the other HS cars.  With almost no negative camber, it eats Hoosiers.  Kumhos seem to live a while and James seems to like the Hankooks on the car. 

Challenges with the development have been getting stock-class legal parts.  Lee Grimes at Koni has a good shock package for the car if you can get the inserts.  I think I have heard that they aren't commonly available.  Stock legal wheels are readily available if you don't mind weight similar to having been made out of spent uranium.  We're still trying to find lighter wheels. 

James has had a lot of luck with his.  I think it will be very interesting in Topeka this year.  Maybe the Subarus can make an even better showing than last year. 

---

Mark Pilson
owner of STS2 Honduh
co-driver of HS Subaru (race tires rule)

The Subie is a good choice.  I haven't had a chance to drive the car that Mark is running, but it looks like it handles real well.  One of the disadvantages it seems to have at tours this year is that it has a shorter 2nd gear than other popular H Stockers.  That may really work to its advantage at HPT, though.

 The Saturn SC2 seems like a good choice, though Justin Rest and Pete Johnson have had reliability troubles with their effort this season.  The Civics are good.  The '02 Si that Mark mentioned does very well locally and it is completely stock.

There are lots of "off the beaten path" choices that may work, too.  I'd like to see someone try a 200SX SER.

---

Steve Rife
ETRSCCA

Hey Lauzon, do you ever check out www.focaljet.com. They've got a really good autox forum with tons of good info. I did consider the 2.3 for HS before I got the 89si that I run now (with p40vic). We are slowly but surely getting pretty darn fast in it and all for a fraction of the cost of a mini or mazda3.

Other beater cars that I had thought of before getting the civic (all of which could be found for well under $6000):

89 Mirage Turbo
Geo Storm Gsi
'93 BMW 318is
2.3 Focus
89-90 Corolla GT-S
Saturn SC2
Mercury Capri XR2
Corolla FX16
Escort GT
few others I can't think of
 

I don't know if any of these would be competitive or not but I like old, cheap cars. The '88 Mirage Turbo I had last year could've been a lot faster with more time and patience.

Look for the '89si at Nats!

Van 

---

1986 Trueno GT-S (FSP)
Delivering tofu to an autocross near you.

lauzon:

my focus was a 2.3 hatch zx3----before that, i had a zx3 with the 2.0 ----i sold the 2.0 and got the 2.3---on paper it looks good, but same problems,just more power.   the car is great up to about 90% of it's limit,  then just really doesn't cut it when you try getting 10/10ths out of it

Out of curiosity, what are the weaknesses? Camber and 6" wheels definitely look like limiters. Does it have enough rear stiffness to pick up the inside rear? If not, I can see how it's only paper advantage, power, would go up in smoke...

Vanimaniac:

Geo Storm Gsi

Don't consider for stock class--crappy GM sway bar linkage--heavy front end. If you really want one I have a really nice 1993 GSi that is available. You would have to put a few stock parts back on. I would however consider the 1992 Isuzu Impulse XS and maybe the 4-door Stylus RS. Maybe a 88-89 Isuzu I-Mark Turbo or 1989 Isuzu I-Mark RS (beam rear axles).

Can't say I see anything better than my Saturn though:

1.9L Al 124hp, 122 lb-ft, 2250lbs, 67.5" wide 50.6" high 99.2" wheelbase 15x6 wheels, decent suspension w/ camber

95-97 200SX SE-R and 96-00 Civic EX Coupe don't sound too bad. I wonder what the gearing is like on a 2.4L Nissan Altima or a first generation 2.4L Dodge Stratus? Maybe a later Mitsubishi Mirage Coupe LS?

As far as the 2004 Focus ZX3 PZEV: 1630 lbs on the front 15x6" wheels.

---

Matthew Huizing
1995 Saturn SC2 - H Stock
1993 Geo Storm GSi - STS

as i said, the focus feels like a great car up to about 90% of it's limit,and that's probably why most magazines give it excellent handling reviews----plus, it's a really fun car to drive.  the problems really show during the last bit of pushing the car to the max.---it appears to be linked to the high center of gravity--which is not simply based on roof height, but on % of weight the car is carrying above a certain height---also, it's sprung very soft (110 lb springs) which, with the high c.g., can make things very interesting at times. (several times this season i've been up on two wheels a bit more than i'm comfortable with)--compound all of this with  poor traction--particularly on corner exit, and it's understandable why a focus has not done well nationally in h-stock.  regardless of my ability level, (however poor that may be!), my time was 2.5 seconds faster in the mazda with just one try---i think it would be even more  with a couple of runs to get used to it.   it's too bad, because the focus is a blast to drive!

ttt

I <3 my 7th gen Civic's.  I have spent four years developing them and I personally think they can be competitive with the right driver.  I could go on and on and on about my thoughts and feelings, but bottom line...

 

7g EX Honda Civic=Cheap to own, easy to maintain, great mpg, and somewhat competitive nationally in HS

 

I think my car WILL place top three in Topeka...twice.

---

D. Scott Bourne
192HS
DATS Racing LLC
Kumho Motorsports
Ken Towery's Motorsports
Tokico USA

DATS Racing, All DATS, All the time!

Scott,

 

Why did you choose the 7th gen EX over the Si? 

jw1:

Scott,

 

Why did you choose the 7th gen EX over the Si? 

6thgen Si:
No Low End Torque,  No ABS, somewhat disturbing reliability 

7thgen Si:

Lots more Weight, body style (don't like the hatch and high C.O.G.) gearshifter location is ????, seat position not comfortable (the last two are wierd, but that's me) 

 

After driving all three, my car feels the most natural for my style and frankly, I like the brakes on mine far better than either of them.  I liked my 01' so much that when I bought a new car, I went with an 04'.  Already had most things to make the car fast and I liked the color.

---

D. Scott Bourne
192HS
DATS Racing LLC
Kumho Motorsports
Ken Towery's Motorsports
Tokico USA

DATS Racing, All DATS, All the time!

jmp33:

Yep, the Subaru is a '97 2.2L Impreza.  They seem to be a little harder to find than you might think.  I was looking for one before I bought my CRX.  I just wasn't having much luck finding one with a 5-speed.

Aside from the obvious no wheelspin advantage, it seems to handle pretty well but it has taken a good bit of tweaking to get it where we are fairly happy with it.  I like the feel of the car much more than a Mazda 3 that I have driven locally. 

I believe our car is a little heavier than the Minis but I don't know about the newer Hondas.  Based on our experience in Atlanta, I'm pretty sure we are down on acceleration from many of the other HS cars.  With almost no negative camber, it eats Hoosiers.  Kumhos seem to live a while and James seems to like the Hankooks on the car. 

Challenges with the development have been getting stock-class legal parts.  Lee Grimes at Koni has a good shock package for the car if you can get the inserts.  I think I have heard that they aren't commonly available.  Stock legal wheels are readily available if you don't mind weight similar to having been made out of spent uranium.  We're still trying to find lighter wheels. 

James has had a lot of luck with his.  I think it will be very interesting in Topeka this year.  Maybe the Subarus can make an even better showing than last year. 

 I had a '96 Outback Sport which I thought might make a decent HS car.  It handled really well for an econobox with worn shocks.  Be aware that the 93-96 cars are down 30hp on the 97-01 cars, although they don't suffer the piston slap issues of the later cars.  Also note the 93-96 cars have 14 inch wheels vs 15s for the later cars.  My OBS was 14x6 I believe.  I don't know if there's an advantage to either wheel size.  The 96 OBS had rear disk brakes, but the later cars got drums.  James Wilson has had some issues with the shoes in his drum brakes.

Some resources for you:

Cars 101 Impreza info: http://www.cars101.com/impreza.html

James Wilson's NASIOC thread:  http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1109136

The GT Worx "Grocery Getter" thread  http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=909761

Whiteline from Australia makes sway bars for these cars, but you may have to order one.

Plenty of shock options designed for the world market STi/WRX of the same generation, again you may have to order them. 

I think the Subie is a good option, but then I hate FWD for performance applications :)