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Bear with me here a minute, I know for some of you this may be a stupid easy question but I get a lot of confusing info so I'm fishing for your thoughts on this.

I've heard and read that the best thing you can do to improve handling after upgrading the struts and springs or getting coilovers is upgrading the swaybars. Lastly would be the strut tower bars, lower tie bars, and underbraces if needed.

Currently my car has a stock front sway and no rear sway. Every now and again the rear steps out and I end up doing a 180.
1)Would a rear swaybar on a FWD Civic help stabilize the rear end during hard cornering or would a larger front swaybar be all thats needed?
Or
2) Should I get a set of matching swaybars that both add a rear bar as well as a upgrading the front bar to a larger diameter?

I was contimplating either getting a stock rear swaybar off another Civic or just getting a Suspension Technique set of both a larger front bar and a rear bar combo.

Any and all info/suggestions are appreciated.

You should get an alignment, or you should replace whatever damaged suspension components it is that are causing the car to behave erratically. It's hard to make a quality recommendation without knowing what your corner rates are, or your current alignment. You have only given us a very small glimpse of what is going on. Since you only have a front bar, I tend to think that the car is already front biased. Because of this, I don't think that adding rear bias (rear sway bar and/or spring) will help with stability in the back. Additionally, with the car already front biased (I think) a looping rear can only be caused by a handful of things: driver error, alignment issues, failed suspension component. So, check your bushings, control arms, and alignment and get back to us. At the next event, have some with more experience drive the car and then you can find out if your driving needs fixing. Good luck.

What class are you planning on running it in?  That either determines what handling mods can even be considered, or is determined by them (typically putting you at a big disadvantage running against far more heavily modified entries).

Have you already replaced the struts?  Tinkered with tire pressures? 

I think that beyond getting the car in good mechanical condition and maybe a little tire pressure and shock tuning (if you either already have adjustables or end up getting them) what's really needed is more seat time. 

Driver experience > tires/wheels > everything else

Norm

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seat time is where you find it (semi-retired) weenie CP '79 Malibu, (no longer ST/SP legal) '95 626

My Civic is the same body style as yours, and I ran into the same problem when I first started, depending on the course/surface.

The number one thing I found was that tire pressures made a huge difference. When I first started, I would put 10+ psi more in the rears than in the fronts, to try to get the car to rotate properly. What this did, though, was make the car 'snappy' loose...grip-more grip-lots of grip-snap!-no grip... Then I got to thinking about how a tire behaves depending on pressure, etc., and decided to start taking air OUT of the rear tires, so they were about 5 or so psi below the fronts. This tended to settle the car down, and I found I could drive it harder, without worrying about when it was going to snap loose... There are differing opinions, I'm sure, but this worked for me; so, if you don't already do it, try it out for a run or two.

It looks like your car is lowered, as well (if that's it in your picture), so make sure that when you're in a turn, the rear shocks don't bottom on the bump stops. While you should run stops to save your shocks, the non-linear rate of the stock Honda stops can have some undesired handling effects. If you're off the stop 90% of the way through a turn, then it hits, the car will snap (assuming you're at the cornering limit).

 Sway bars could help you, but they could hurt you as well...it depends on your spring setup, and the course and surface. A flat, smooth course may require more bar than a rough, hilly course.

 

So, IMO, before you go out and buy anything else that may or may not help, work on your tire pressures and alignment, then if you find you need more, try a stock or ST rear bar, and go from there.

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spd.

Right now I'm running Eibach's ProKit series strut and spring combo which use progressive rate springs. I also have Energy Suspension's Hyper-Flex System Master Set polybushings all around and a puny stock front swaybar. The polybushings and strut/spring combo have stiffened up the ride tremendously over the stock crap, but its not quite there yet.

I've gotten to the point where I can reach the limit of the current set-ups performance with consistant times, but if I want to go faster and try to pick up a couple seconds something gives and I'm looped. So I'm thinking sawybars may help to stabilize the current set-up enough for me to push it more and gain that extra second or two. I'm just unsure of the best way to set up the car with swaybars.

A couple questions:

Do you have the poly rear trailing arm bushings installed? If so, that could be part of the problem. The poly bushing actually doesn't have enough compliance for how the arm is supposed to move.

You say that you are at the limit of the car's handling capabilities as is...which is good information. But now, I think to properly give you a direction (unless something is indeed wrong mechanically), we need to know more information. What is the car doing up to this "snapping point"? Is it spinning under throttle? Under braking? Is it pushing, but then breaks loose when you put more wheel to it? Does it turn in well, but then it's loose at the apex? Also, does this problem happen only in fast corners, or just slow corners, or all corners? Are you trying to turn it with the brake? I'm willing to help you out, but I need more information.

With that, I would say that I like to run at least a rear bar. Sometimes I will hook up the front, sometimes I leave it disconnected...just depends on the track.

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spd.

If this info is provided, I didn't see it...Tires??? What brand/size/air psi/???  My Honda Civic (EM2) running in stock with Tokico HTS/factory springs/28mmEibach Front bar can get real oversteery if I crank the alignment out to -0.25 toe out per corner in the rear and full stiff on the shocks.  If you oversteer as such, playing with air pressure, and softening the shocks front and rear may dial some of the out.

Just my thoughts and ideas... 

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D. Scott Bourne
192HS
DATS Racing LLC
Kumho Motorsports
Ken Towery's Motorsports
Tokico USA

DATS Racing, All DATS, All the time!

It happens in a slolom by the 3rd or 4th cone, if I try to do it a little faster than last time, or most recently in a right to left turn as in the center of a figure 8. I can do it and maintain a pretty good pace and speed for the first few runs but if I try to pick it up a bit for the last runs I end up looping.

Now understand I'm not trying to gun it and plow through like a madman to gain 2-3 seconds on just those parts of the course, but rather a second or two over the entirety of the course. It just seems that when I get to those sections the car gives up and it bites back! I mean we're talking a difference between trying to take the corner at 27mph instead of 25mph or something like that!

 Instead of a polybushing for the rear trailing arm, what else is there?

Use a stock honda trailing arm bushing, or a Mugen one, which is a little stiffer, but still compliant enough. There are also a couple companies that make spherical bearing carriers that replace the stock bushings...I'd have to find them again to give you the name...

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From what you're describing now, it seems like you're getting behind on your steering inputs through the slalom...the faster you go, the sooner (time-wise) you have to start turning in for the next one, which, if you've gone through that section a few times at one pace, it can throw off your rhythm if you try to go faster.

It could also be a matter of having a little bit of understeer at turn-in, so you have to put too much wheel to it, then coupled with the rhythm change and having to get the wheel turned back the other way (even more, now), gets the rear end sliding around too much...

So, my remedy would be this:

Add a rear bar. It will make the car looser overall, but will help. I've used a Suspension Techniques bar, but there are some others with better mounting techniques (subframe braces, etc.) that should be legal in FSP or SM or whatever class you're running in now. There are also a few different diameters you could try out, but manufacturers usually only carry one or two, so it may be difficult, unless you go with a fully custom setup. I would start with an ST or a stock Honda (GSR or the like) rear bar, so it won't be a drastic change right off the bat. Once you go with some race tires (if you don't already, you never said) you could go with a lot larger diameter bar.

 Add a little pressure to the front tires from what you're running (2psi, say), then set the rears to 5-7 less. This will make turn in crisper, and help with the snappiness.

 Also, and most importantly, on your first run, "go for the gusto"...or however that saying goes. It's going to be easier to back down a section that you went too fast through, than to 'build up' your speed for the last run. If you're trying to pick up 2 seconds on your last run of the day, it's not going to happen, but if it somehow, miraculously does, that means you could have found those 2 seconds on your first or second run, and been better off for the rest. If you push harder and can start the day 1-1.5 sec ahead of where you normally would, you can work on picking up the last half second over your next 3 or 4 runs...which is definitely doable, and you'll become more consistent in the process.

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spd.

A C5 Z06 would easily gain you a couple seconds and they sound cool, too! JK... sorry, I'm a little under the weather, so trolling takes my mind of feeling like crap

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James Plotkin
'05 FSP Echo

I have a CRX dx that came without a rear sway bar.  I had a similar problem with too much body roll, and the rear would step out in a snap oversteer. 

I would recommend changing the rear trailing arm bushings and adding a rear sway bar.  When under hard cornering the worn bushings can allow movement in the rear suspension geometry that affects rear toe etc.   I recently replaced the bushings and it helped, but the rear sway bar made a huge difference in how the car handles.  Going from no rear sway to even a factory sway is a great improvement!!! 

hope this helps.

 http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/1456600

 

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91 CRX B16 daily driver 1850lbs.

OverDrive418:

It happens in a slolom by the 3rd or 4th cone, if I try to do it a little faster than last time, or most recently in a right to left turn as in the center of a figure 8. I can do it and maintain a pretty good pace and speed for the first few runs but if I try to pick it up a bit for the last runs I end up looping.

Now understand I'm not trying to gun it and plow through like a madman to gain 2-3 seconds on just those parts of the course, but rather a second or two over the entirety of the course. It just seems that when I get to those sections the car gives up and it bites back! I mean we're talking a difference between trying to take the corner at 27mph instead of 25mph or something like that!

 Instead of a polybushing for the rear trailing arm, what else is there?

 Most people that spin in slaloms abruptly lift off of the throttle.  This is especially true for front wheel drive cars.  Do you ever have an "instructor" drive with you to critique or have you ever let say a top index driver, drive your car?
 

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Ryan K

redwhale240:

OverDrive418:

It happens in a slolom by the 3rd or 4th cone, if I try to do it a little faster than last time, or most recently in a right to left turn as in the center of a figure 8. I can do it and maintain a pretty good pace and speed for the first few runs but if I try to pick it up a bit for the last runs I end up looping.

Now understand I'm not trying to gun it and plow through like a madman to gain 2-3 seconds on just those parts of the course, but rather a second or two over the entirety of the course. It just seems that when I get to those sections the car gives up and it bites back! I mean we're talking a difference between trying to take the corner at 27mph instead of 25mph or something like that!

 Instead of a polybushing for the rear trailing arm, what else is there?

 Most people that spin in slaloms abruptly lift off of the throttle.  This is especially true for front wheel drive cars.  Do you ever have an "instructor" drive with you to critique or have you ever let say a top index driver, drive your car?
 

 

My thoughts as well...I've done it quite a few times myself.

If the car is actually "looping" and just snapping, if you will, then its most likely what you're doing, not the setup of the car. Granted the setup could have an impact on that, but as mentioned...the most common cause is lifting and lifting too heavily or abruptly.

For my civic to feel this way, like it wants to snap, then I usually have the rear too stiff, swaybar and shocks. I dial some out and maybe lower pressures a bit to make it more controllable. Either way, i can still loop it quite easily by not driving correctly. A quick turn and abrupt lift will do it everytime.

 

Scott

 

p.s. Try entering the slalom a little slower and then accelerate thru it. And LOOK AHEAD... :)

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I live my life one cone at a time........