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Dick Rasmussen:

One major question would be whether a STU Pony Car could utilize all that power and torque with 2 wheel drive on ST (i.e. non R) tires compared to the all wheel drive cars. Plus I think the Pony Cars are also heavier, longer, and wider all of which would seem to work against them. Maybe STU should allow R tires for the 2 wheel drive cars . . .

Dick

All true but they are the only cars that can fit the maximum tire size (besides the RX8) and definitely have the most hp/tq by far.  I'm sure an Auburn Pro or equiviant would help put that power to the ground.  WRT the current crop of STU tires, compare their grip to that of a Toyo RA1.  We did some DL-1 testing on a M3 with the RA1 vs Advan and the Advan actually pulled some better numbers.  So do you have any experience on how a FS/ESP car does with Toyos?  If so, that's a pretty good example on how the car would do in STU.

Spent some time at the Ford dealer today. I was drooling over the new $$$F-450$$$.

There was a guy getting VERY close to buying a Shelby GT that was in the showroom.

I wouldn't drive it with the stock hood pins. They don't even lock! It looks like they would open up and bang all over the front of the car while you are driving it. Kind of a joke really.

There was some other workmanship issues with the car too.

If you want one, go get one but look it over VERY well. The price is too high even without the $markup$ for the amount of parts that you are getting imo.

FM 

McCall:

Dick Rasmussen:

Alternately since FS cars don't really have a ST class that works, folks that care enough could propose an FS pony car specific ST class with or without R tires (I'm not sure an FS pony car would be worth the trouble without R tires).

Sounds like a fun class to me but I'm not interested enough to pursue it. I'll let the folks who are (IF there are any) pursue it.

You know a couple of us STUers were talking about this and wondering why know one has tried a pony car in STU yet.  Seems like the rules allow you to fix all the inhert problems with the cars and that should allow one to be competitive.  It would probably be cheaper than building an ESP car as well and it would still be very easy to drive it daily on the street.  In STU you could do all the ESP suspension mods, upgrade the brakes, upgrade the diff, intake & exhaust mods, ECU tuning, real 25lb seats, lighweight hood, and any diameter and width wheel as long as you run a max of 275mm tires.

Let's look at the results of STU vs. ESP this last year at Nationals to see if this idea of a pony car in STU might hold true.  For STU the top 10 spots ranged from total time from 105.7-107.7.  ESP's top 10 ranged from 101.2-104.4.  Basically ESP was 2+ seconds a course faster than STU.  Now take away R compounds and some tire width(275mm max) and I still bet a pony car could compete for one of the top spots.  Heck, the winning FS car would have won placed 2nd in STU this year.

Any thoughts?

 I don't see how a pony car could ever keep up in STU.  What good is 350+/- (LS1 + intake + headers) wheel hp if you only have 275 street tires?  Heavier than the StEvos, with less tire to put the power down, and more power to put to the pavement. 

 What brake upgrades do you speak of?  Since when are stock LS1 brakes not enough for auto-x? 

Pony cars seem to lose way more time going from R's to streets than lighter, less powerful cars.  And I would certainly think AWD really helps when grip gets limited.

Mojave:

 I don't see how a pony car could ever keep up in STU.  What good is 350+/- (LS1 + intake + headers) wheel hp if you only have 275 street tires?  Heavier than the StEvos, with less tire to put the power down, and more power to put to the pavement. 

 What brake upgrades do you speak of?  Since when are stock LS1 brakes not enough for auto-x? 

Pony cars seem to lose way more time going from R's to streets than lighter, less powerful cars.  And I would certainly think AWD really helps when grip gets limited.

You make some really good points.  I just wish someone would actually try it before we dismiss the idea because Ponys car would seem to lose too much time on STU-legal tires (which are not street tires per se).  That seems very arbitrary.  There's another factor to consider; the fun factor.  A pony car with STU legal mods would definitely be a fun car to daily drive(350+ hp and better suspension) and could easliy be driven back and forth from events.  ST classes are the fastest growing because of this and it seems like Pony cars fit the bill to a "t".  If I hadn't been so far gone to SM with my LT1 formula (and it wasn't even competitive),  I would have considered running STU.

As far as LS1 brake upgrades, think two-piece rotors.  The cars that would be helped the most by upgraded calipers are the Mustangs.  I'm not up to date on what comes on the current crop but I know during the '90s they weren't that hot.

McCall:

Mojave:

 I don't see how a pony car could ever keep up in STU.  What good is 350+/- (LS1 + intake + headers) wheel hp if you only have 275 street tires?  Heavier than the StEvos, with less tire to put the power down, and more power to put to the pavement. 

 What brake upgrades do you speak of?  Since when are stock LS1 brakes not enough for auto-x? 

Pony cars seem to lose way more time going from R's to streets than lighter, less powerful cars.  And I would certainly think AWD really helps when grip gets limited.

You make some really good points.  I just wish someone would actually try it before we dismiss the idea because Ponys car would seem to lose too much time on STU-legal tires (which are not street tires per se).  That seems very arbitrary.  There's another factor to consider; the fun factor.  A pony car with STU legal mods would definitely be a fun car to daily drive(350+ hp and better suspension) and could easliy be driven back and forth from events.  ST classes are the fastest growing because of this and it seems like Pony cars fit the bill to a "t".  If I hadn't been so far gone to SM with my LT1 formula (and it wasn't even competitive),  I would have considered running STU.

As far as LS1 brake upgrades, think two-piece rotors.  The cars that would be helped the most by upgraded calipers are the Mustangs.  I'm not up to date on what comes on the current crop but I know during the '90s they weren't that hot.

What about cost?  I like race tires.  How much do the hot ST tires cost in 275 sizes? I'm not up on ST tire trends, but I seem to remember the Yokohama Advan being mentioned.

275/35R18 Advan Sport: $281 each from Tire Rack
315/35R17 V710: $240 each from Tire Rack

Ouch. I for one never liked spending more on tires to go slower.  Sure, the Advans will last longer, but for Nats, everyone will be on brand new shaved ones.   I personally would rather go to ESP, where I know I can win with enough car prep and driving, than spend almost as much money to go slower and quite possibly not be competitive.

I have no way to quantify the amount of time lost, but I certainly believe it is a lot.  The car certainly feels very, very different, and my focus when driving often shifts to managing oversteer.

SoftBatch:

This is what's stated in the FASTRACK

Stock: per the SAC, the following new listings are added, effective immediately upon publication:

Ford Shelby GT350, T82 and 54U factory option package only FS

NOTE: “Shelby” add-ons beyond T82/54U are considered “dealer installed” and are not stock legal.

Is this what you mean by the 54U package:

54U Package- Ford content at Mustang Plant
GT/CS based (Fascias/Side scoops)
18" Wheels- White gets Polished aluminum, Black gets new Black aluminum
Side air bags
Tire Inflator kit (ilo spare)
Bright aluminum pedals

and all of this is the "Shelby Addons":

 Shelby Modifications
FR Power Upgrade package
Cold air intake
Mufflers
Premium fuel calibration
FR Handling Package
Front and rear sway bars
Tuned dampers, springs, bushings
Cross tower brace
FR short throw shifter
Upgraded rear axle (3.55 AT)

Appearance items
Hood pins and hood scoop
Shelby grill insert and pony badge
Shelby racing and body side stripes
Shelby GT Sill palte and floor mats with Shelby logo
Shelby dash plaque, underhood engine plaque
Powered by Ford fender badges.

Or do you mean things not on this list are Shelby addons (3.73 rear ends, superchargers, etc.)?

Back to FS for a second,

It reads to me that only the 54U Package- Ford content at Mustang Plant  parts are FS legal.  So basically, you can run a stock GT, plus the cosmetic Shelby  parts only.  That seems a lot more benign than requiring the full boat with all the Shelby suspension add ons to be the class dominating car. 

So I guess until the new Bullit and Boss 302 arrive for '08, the GT is still the best new mustang platform?

Stan Whitney:

Back to FS for a second,

It reads to me that only the 54U Package- Ford content at Mustang Plant  parts are FS legal.  So basically, you can run a stock GT, plus the cosmetic Shelby  parts only.  That seems a lot more benign than requiring the full boat with all the Shelby suspension add ons to be the class dominating car. 

So I guess until the new Bullit and Boss 302 arrive for '08, the GT is still the best new mustang platform?

 According to the VP at Shelby you cannot order a 54U package unless you send it to Shelby for the extra parts.

Mojave:

What about cost?  I like race tires.  How much do the hot ST tires cost in 275 sizes? I'm not up on ST tire trends, but I seem to remember the Yokohama Advan being mentioned.

275/35R18 Advan Sport: $281 each from Tire Rack
315/35R17 V710: $240 each from Tire Rack

Ouch. I for one never liked spending more on tires to go slower.  Sure, the Advans will last longer, but for Nats, everyone will be on brand new shaved ones.   I personally would rather go to ESP, where I know I can win with enough car prep and driving, than spend almost as much money to go slower and quite possibly not be competitive.

I have no way to quantify the amount of time lost, but I certainly believe it is a lot.  The car certainly feels very, very different, and my focus when driving often shifts to managing oversteer.

18's?  Try the 275/40-17.  You can get Khumo MX's for $135 each and Falken 615's for $153.  Both of those tires were represented at Nationals this year but yea the class favorite Yoks right now (and I stress that) is only available in 18" so I can see how that would be a negative cost wise.

I have a set of used 275/35/18 Falken 615's and I will see if I can rope some ESP guy in to trying them and see how they do.  I just have to think that they will be within 2 seconds of their R compound times.  As far as going slower than ESP, sure you will but when you are running against possibly 55+ drivers this year at Nationals that has to be a competive rush worth exploring.  Of course since I drive an Evo I'm sure I'm getting discounted here and my 10+ years driving f-bodies doesn't count I guess.

Sorry for STU hijack, back to Shelby GT/FS talk (which I saw one today btw, pretty nice)

McCall:

Mojave:

What about cost?  I like race tires.  How much do the hot ST tires cost in 275 sizes? I'm not up on ST tire trends, but I seem to remember the Yokohama Advan being mentioned.

275/35R18 Advan Sport: $281 each from Tire Rack
315/35R17 V710: $240 each from Tire Rack

Ouch. I for one never liked spending more on tires to go slower.  Sure, the Advans will last longer, but for Nats, everyone will be on brand new shaved ones.   I personally would rather go to ESP, where I know I can win with enough car prep and driving, than spend almost as much money to go slower and quite possibly not be competitive.

I have no way to quantify the amount of time lost, but I certainly believe it is a lot.  The car certainly feels very, very different, and my focus when driving often shifts to managing oversteer.

18's?  Try the 275/40-17.  You can get Khumo MX's for $135 each and Falken 615's for $153.  Both of those tires were represented at Nationals this year but yea the class favorite Yoks right now (and I stress that) is only available in 18" so I can see how that would be a negative cost wise.

I have a set of used 275/35/18 Falken 615's and I will see if I can rope some ESP guy in to trying them and see how they do.  I just have to think that they will be within 2 seconds of their R compound times.  As far as going slower than ESP, sure you will but when you are running against possibly 55+ drivers this year at Nationals that has to be a competive rush worth exploring.  Of course since I drive an Evo I'm sure I'm getting discounted here and my 10+ years driving f-bodies doesn't count I guess.

Sorry for STU hijack, back to Shelby GT/FS talk (which I saw one today btw, pretty nice)

I know you have been driving f-bodies a lot longer than I have (longer than I have even been driving, actually) but I will respectfully have to disagree.  But hey, maybe I'm wrong and STU is the ST class f-body guys need to get into.

F Stock for me!

we have a local running an ESP 1LE and he did a couple events with the 275/35R18 615's and they were ok, but burning up alot of tire on acceleration. and was way far down in results compareds to his runs on the 275 V710's he was running.

actually i think one event roger johnson co-drove and they did 2 runs on streets and 2 on R's they both pulled off over 3 seconds (roger more because he was learning the car) going to the V710's. I just don't think that there's a way to put that amount of power thru that sized tire with that grip level. that being said he's going to 315's instead of street tire class...

however he's running canadian rules and that allows a couple more changes in the motor department..so he's putting down 430 at the rear and you won't get that outta an STU camaro..

McCall:

I have a set of used 275/35/18 Falken 615's and I will see if I can rope some ESP guy in to trying them and see how they do.  I just have to think that they will be within 2 seconds of their R compound times.  As far as going slower than ESP, sure you will but when you are running against possibly 55+ drivers this year at Nationals that has to be a competive rush worth exploring.  Of course since I drive an Evo I'm sure I'm getting discounted here and my 10+ years driving f-bodies doesn't count I guess.

I ran my 93 Trans Am in STU last year on 275/40/17 RT615's. It wasn't aweful but I don't think it would've stood any chance against a well preped rally car. Most of the time I felt like I was just controlling wheelspin and trying not to hit stuff vs. actually driving the course. But then again i'm a hack and the car was hardly preped to the limit of the rules so who knows. The same car on race tires was a heck of alot more fun anyways

McCall:

You know a couple of us STUers were talking about this and wondering why know one has tried a pony car in STU yet.  Seems like the rules allow you to fix all the inhert problems with the cars and that should allow one to be competitive.  It would probably be cheaper than building an ESP car as well and it would still be very easy to drive it daily on the street.  In STU you could do all the ESP suspension mods, upgrade the brakes, upgrade the diff, intake & exhaust mods, ECU tuning, real 25lb seats, lighweight hood, and any diameter and width wheel as long as you run a max of 275mm tires.

Any thoughts?

I just don't see the point to build an STU Mustang or Camaro given that they are wider, heavier, live axle, etc compared to an STI.  If the pony cars have these disadvantages then they have to do something better then the STI in order to run similar times.  As far as I know a pony car has one advantage over a rally car and it's power/torque, but street tires take that away because you can't put it down.
 

An STU f-body doesn't strike me as really wise if you are looking to be truly competitive....  Limited to 275's, and most of the mods needed are needed and usefull in ESP where you can not only run bigger tires, but stickier ones as well.  And us lowly 2WD guys need all the help we can get putting down more the 300 ft./lbs at the wheels.  Frankly we don't have enough traction in ESP on 315 or 335 R-comps.  At least I don't.

 Running the heaviest, biggest, worst traction, solid axle car you can in STU just doesn't seem to be the wisest move if competitiveness is the goal., 

SoftBatch:

 According to the VP at Shelby you cannot order a 54U package unless you send it to Shelby for the extra parts.

I could swear Marcus Merideth just bought one exactly that way.

--Donnie 

djb_rh:

SoftBatch:

 According to the VP at Shelby you cannot order a 54U package unless you send it to Shelby for the extra parts.

 

I could swear Marcus Merideth just bought one exactly that way.

 

--Donnie 

I was told the same thing by the general manager of a local Ford dealership.  I explained to him why I was asking and told him that I heard that someone had ordered on that way.  His reply was something along the lines of, "If you walk up off the street, I can't sell one to you like that."

01 FS Z28:

An STU f-body doesn't strike me as really wise if you are looking to be truly competitive....  Limited to 275's, and most of the mods needed are needed and usefull in ESP where you can not only run bigger tires, but stickier ones as well.  And us lowly 2WD guys need all the help we can get putting down more the 300 ft./lbs at the wheels.  Frankly we don't have enough traction in ESP on 315 or 335 R-comps.  At least I don't.

 Running the heaviest, biggest, worst traction, solid axle car you can in STU just doesn't seem to be the wisest move if competitiveness is the goal., 

All I know is that it wasn't very fun* driving a 209 whp, 3300# F-Body on 245's in STX.  Can't imagine an extra 30mm of tire on a 4th gen (slightly heavier car with more HP) would be much easier.

Pat

* OK, sometimes it was fun.

sjrife:

djb_rh:

SoftBatch:

 According to the VP at Shelby you cannot order a 54U package unless you send it to Shelby for the extra parts.

 

I could swear Marcus Merideth just bought one exactly that way.

I was told the same thing by the general manager of a local Ford dealership.  I explained to him why I was asking and told him that I heard that someone had ordered on that way.  His reply was something along the lines of, "If you walk up off the street, I can't sell one to you like that."

It goes to Shelby for the "additional parts" (the stuff designated in 54U), but that has been deemed stock legal.  You can't get anything *else* done to it at Shelby, though, and Shelby will do one that way.  (Well, there are probably legal things you could get Shelby to do that fall under C&C or whatever, but you know what I mean...no blowers ).

--Donnie 

Right.  I was told that one cannot order a 54U car without the Shelby add-ons (intake, handling package crap, etc)....or more accurately, one could order a car that way, but it'd show up with the Shelby crap on the car.

With that said, I'm not sure if the 54U has anything that'd make that big of a difference anyway.