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aansorge:

I think autoxr2 has a point and I have thought the same thing for quite some time.  Why not dump all of the obviously bottom tier GS cars to HS?  All of them have 0 chance of beating the top HS cars. 

I put in bold cars I think have little business being in GS.  I think that autoxr2 has a point that if a newbie shows up with these cars and is running against a Cooper S it doesn't take them long to think "this sux"!

 

G Stock
GS	Acura	CL 6-cyl	Integra ('90+) NOC	Legend
GS		RSX Type S	TL	TL Type S
GS		Vigor
GS	Alfa Romeo	164 non-S (pre '94)	1750, 1750 GTV	GTV V6
GS		Milano
GS	Audi	200 Turbo Quattro	5000 Turbo	A3 ('06+ FWD)
GS		A4, 4 cyl. Turbo	A4, 6 cyl	A6
GS		Quattro Coupe, Turbo	S4 ('92-'94) (100 CS chassis)	V8 Quattro, A8
GS	BMW	2002 (all)	318 ti ('95+)	318is, i (1991)
GS		325E, eta engine
GS	Buick	Reatta
GS	Cadillac	Catera
GS	Chevrolet	Camaro V6	Cobalt SS N/A	Corvair 4 carb
GS		Corvair Turbo
GS	Chrysler	Cirrus, V6	Conquest Turbo	Laser Turbo
GS		Neon, (all)	PT Turbo ('03+)	Sebring V6
GS	Daewoo	4-cyl.	6-cyl. models
GS	Dodge	Avenger V6	Conquest Turbo	Daytona Turbo NOC
GS		Lancer Turbo	Neon, (all)	Shadow Turbo NOC
GS		Shadow V6	Spirit R/T	Spirit V6 & Turbo 4 cyl
GS		Stealth non-turbo	Stratus V6
GS	Ford	Contour SE V6	Contour SVT	Five Hundred go to HS!
GS		Focus SVT	Fusion (6-cyl)	Mustang SVO
GS		Mustang V6 and 4 cyl. turbo	Probe ('89-'92) 4 cyl turbo & V6	Probe ('93+) (all)
GS		Taurus SHO	Tempo V6	Thunderbird Turbo
GS		ZX2/SR
GS	General Motors	All FWD models with V6 (all), Quad 4, Ecotec, or 4 cyl turbo engines, NOC
GS	Honda	Accord V6	CRX Si (all)	Civic Si ('06+)
GS		Civic Si ('86 and '87)	Civic del Sol VTEC	Prelude ('92+) NOC
GS		Prelude VTEC ('93-'96)
GS	Infiniti	M30
GS	Isuzu	Impulse Turbo ALL
GS	Jaguar	X-type ('02+)
GS	Lexus	ES 250	ES 300	GS 300
GS	Lincoln	LS V6 Sedans
GS	Mazda	323 GT Turbo Sedan	323 GTX awd Turbo	6 (6-cyl)
GS		MX-6 V6 and 4 cyl. turbo (all)	MX-6, 4 cyl ('93+)	Millennia S/C
GS		Protégé MP3
GS	Mercedes	190 16v	190, 2.6L	280
GS		C230 (190HP)
GS	Mercury	Capri, US V6 and 4 cyl turbo	Cougar V6	Milan ('06+)
GS		Montego	Mystique V6	Topaz V6
GS	Merkur	XR4Ti
GS	Mini	Cooper S ('02-'04)	Cooper S ('05+)
GS	Mitsubishi/DSM	3000 GT, non-turbo	Eclipse ('00+)	Eclipse/Talon Turbo FWD
GS		Galant V6	Galant VR4	Starion Turbo
GS	Nissan	200 SX SE V6	200 SX Turbo	240 SX (all)
GS		300ZX, non-turbo (pre '90)	Altima ('02+)	Maxima ('92+)
GS		NX 2000	Sentra 2.0L ('00-'01)	Sentra SE-R ('02+)
GS		Sentra SE-R ('91-'94)	Sentra Spec-V ('02+)
GS	Peugeot	405 Mi-16
GS	Plymouth	Acclaim V6 & 4 cyl. turbo	Neon (all)	Sundance V6 & 4 cyl. turbo
GS	Pontiac	Firebird V6
GS	Saab	9-2X Linear (2.5L)	900 V6 ('94+)	All Turbos NOC
GS	Saturn	L-series 6-cyl
GS	Subaru	Impreza 2.5 RS	SVX
GS	Toyota	Camry V6 ('92+)	Celica All-Trac Turbo	Celica GT ('94+)
GS		Celica GT-S ('86-'93)	Celica GTS ('00+)	Celica ST ('94+)
GS		Supra ('82-85)	Supra ('86-'92)
GS	Volkswagen	1.8T models NOC ('02+)	Beetle 1.8 Turbo	Corrado G60
GS		Corrado VR6	GTi ('06+)	Golf/GTi/Jetta 1.8 Turbo
GS		Golf/GTi/Jetta 16v	Golf/Jetta/GLI 24V VR6 ('02+)	Jetta 2.0T and GLi 2.0T ('06+)
GS		Passat 1.8 Turbo	Passat 6-cyl, ('02+)	Passat V6 AWD
GS		Scirocco 16v	VR6 FWD (NOC)
GS	Volvo	(NOC)	Turbo models (all)

Why not move the Sentra SE-R/NX2000 91-94? The 95-99 200SX SE-R is already in HS. 

Isn't it obvious what they are doing?

GS and DS were too close. GS has the Cooper S as its top car. Throw the FWD DS cars in GS and open up DS for more powerful iron like the BMW 135i. Its a little sad to see the Type R proposed move to BS. I think it will get killed there.

Overall I see nothing horrible with the proposals. To me the SAC is doing a good job in an ever-changing environment. There are always going to be winners and losers when it comes to classing. The key is to try to class cars so the majority of people don't get screwed. I think that's the best you can hope for.

Regards,

Alan 

aansorge:

I think autoxr2 has a point and I have thought the same thing for quite some time.  Why not dump all of the obviously bottom tier GS cars to HS?  All of them have 0 chance of beating the top HS cars. 

I put in bold cars I think have little business being in GS.  I think that autoxr2 has a point that if a newbie shows up with these cars and is running against a Cooper S it doesn't take them long to think "this sux"!

First you say that none of the bottom GS cars would have a chance even in HS, then you say that a newbie in those cars would be give up after being spanked by a Cooper S.

Won't they be more frustrated when they get spanked by a slower car in HS?

Now that you have picked the cars that you think are slow, follow this up with specs.  Go through each year of each model, list HP, Torque, Curb Weight, Wheelbase, Track, Wheel sizes.

To help, I'll do the first (since I owned one at one point)

BMW 2002 - 130HP, 130lb ft. of Torque in a 2200lb car. (tii version specs).  98" Wheelbase, 54" Track. Wheels are 13" x either 5" or 5.5" (Mine was not a tii and it had 5", I think the tii had 5.5").   BTW, finding a Stock legal one (and the docs to prove it) near impossible.

Also, you bolded the Chrysler Laser Turbo but not its twin the Daytona Turbo (or was Laser one of the DSM cars, which also were not bolded?)

Anyway, good luck, going through the 20 or so years of Cavalier specs should keep you busy for a good amount of time.

What, you don't have time to do all of that?

Well, how much time do you think the SEB and SAC have?

aansorge:

I think autoxr2 has a point

I can't tell if there is a point between all the jaded, negative words. Everyone needs to relax a bit. It is just a proposal and we are talking about stock cars. No one is saying you won't be allowed to race or that you will have to change your prep or buy a new car. Worst case scenario is your car may not be the top car in the class anymore (but if the changes are good, the difference between top and bottom in a group should be reduced). And, even if the changes negatively affect some of the current top cars, that really only greatly affects the few national level competitors where a 0.1s is a huge difference - and if you are that serious, you have to expect to buy new cars periodically to be competitive. Racers can even decide to move their car to a ST class or something else. There are lots of options and this whole mentality that a change would be the end of the world is way overblown. No one is trying to screw anyone and the board does not have some master plan to give themselves a benefit and screw over people that own cars they don't like. That kind of talk is not helpful and detracts from any good arguements that might be being made. 

Racing is a competitive sport by definition, but we don't have to be so competitive in our discussions. Some people act like the race is already on the final stretch and someone has been holding you at the start line when all we are really doing is lining up the cars on the paddock.

I, for one, applaud the board for putting deep thought about ways to restructure the classes. I think it is clear we have a lot of unnecessary classes and probably several missing classes. But, it is one thing to speculate on a website - it takes a lot of courage to actually put something out there knowing it is going to get torn to shreds by the masses afraid of change. Does anyone think the current classing is flawless? Do you think your proposed changes would be met with universal acceptance? No matter what is proposed, many people are going to complain - but that doesn't mean it is a bad idea. It may just mean people fear change - even good change. I just hope people can get past any fear of change and look at the bigger picture. To me, this looks like a good start to the proposal, but I think we need ot wait until next month to really understand the whole concept.  

autoxr2:

Spyder -I deserved that, but still I'll stick to my opinion that SCCA should look at all cars in a re-class just not what the hot cars of the day are  . I would venture to say there are more J-bodies(Cavaliers and Sunfires) sold than Mini's, there is also a national j-body org that supports racing- road and drag, would there be anything wrong with putting them in H-stock with all the other low HP FWD cars? (I'm not talking about the 165hp turbo 1989 Sunbird), I don't think H-stock would be worried about having the Ecotec 4 cyl run if they are not worried about the Del sol. Someone in SCCA must be worried though. But maybe they just don't need anymore income . Yes, I have written letters in the past, with no results/confirmation- maybe Mr. Gill and others don't give a sh*t about Cavaliers either. So the dead horse has been beaten enough, maybe someday the Mini will not be the car in G stock and everyone will have to go out and spend lots of money and time to switch car/classes. That is SCCA's  idea of keeping it fresh and making sure current cars are taken care of.

The problem with that statement is that J-bodies just don't come out to autocross.  They just aren't fun to drive for many people.  Sure they may have sold a lot, but the low cost and very low resale value of those cars might have had a big influence of why they sold more than the Mini.  The Mini, on the other hand, is fun to drive in the NA, super, and turbocharged versions.  It holds it's value well too.  It became an instant favorite among Sportscar Enthusiasts.  This, among other things, led to it being a class winning car.  In GS, the Spec-V may have been just as fast, but it's not an enthusiasts car so many don't autocross.  The same could be said of many cars in HS too, specifically the Honda Civic.  It may do well, but it's not as fun to drive as the Mini so autocrossers aren't flocking to buy them. 

People who run in stock classes understand that they may have to replace their cars every 3-5 years.  It's expected as new cars are placed into their class.  So older cars get put even further back...  The SEB could look at the entire list of cars every year but that is a lot of work that really doesn't need to happen since those cars are already not competitive.  Also see my other post on not wanting older cars to be the ones that become competitive since they may be rare and expensive to buy.  So making them competitive in another class just isn't worth the risk. 
 

autoxr2:

a half-assed car is one without proper autox alignment, stock shocks, and a half-assed driver.

Now you are getting at something.

No car is "half-assed" prepared, just under prepared.

But the driver, anyone can participate in an autocross, it takes someone who understands that it takes practice and quality instruction to reach the top tier.

00R101:

Isn't it obvious what they are doing?

GS and DS were too close.

Alan, the current DS came from GS.  They were destined to be close.

P-Z:

aansorge:

I think autoxr2 has a point and I have thought the same thing for quite some time.  Why not dump all of the obviously bottom tier GS cars to HS?  All of them have 0 chance of beating the top HS cars. 

I put in bold cars I think have little business being in GS.  I think that autoxr2 has a point that if a newbie shows up with these cars and is running against a Cooper S it doesn't take them long to think "this sux"!

 

First you say that none of the bottom GS cars would have a chance even in HS, then you say that a newbie in those cars would be give up after being spanked by a Cooper S.

Won't they be more frustrated when they get spanked by a slower car in HS?

No they will get spanked by a smaller margin (of course driver dependent) and will be more likely to think that they will have a decent shot at the next event.

Now that you have picked the cars that you think are slow, follow this up with specs.  Go through each year of each model, list HP, Torque, Curb Weight, Wheelbase, Track, Wheel sizes.

To help, I'll do the first (since I owned one at one point)

BMW 2002 - 130HP, 130lb ft. of Torque in a 2200lb car. (tii version specs).  98" Wheelbase, 54" Track. Wheels are 13" x either 5" or 5.5" (Mine was not a tii and it had 5", I think the tii had 5.5").   BTW, finding a Stock legal one (and the docs to prove it) near impossible.

Does the SAC or the SEB do this for all cars?  If so, Cashmore has already done this on most GS and HS cars. 

Also, you bolded the Chrysler Laser Turbo but not its

twin the Daytona Turbo (or was Laser one of the DSM cars, which also were not bolded?)

I meant to go back and change that one.

Anyway, good luck, going through the 20 or so years of Cavalier specs should keep you busy for a good amount of time.

- We know that they all belong in HS regardless of specs. Specs only tell us so much.  How they perform is what is important.

What, you don't have time to do all of that?

- I have plenty of time. I have the summer off!!!

Well, how much time do you think the SEB and SAC have?

I think they do a tough job and do it well.  But I still feel that some of these bottom feeder GS cars could be moved into HS.  Why?  I think that occasionally a high school senior or young college kid shows up for his first autocross and he or she is driving one of the cars I listed.  If he or she sees that his car is going to be going up against a bunch of Cooper S's they are going to know he will never be able to compete so why comeback?  I know that there aren't Cooper S's at every local autocross event. . .

 

P-Z:

First you say that none of the bottom GS cars would have a chance even in HS, then you say that a newbie in those cars would be give up after being spanked by a Cooper S.

Won't they be more frustrated when they get spanked by a slower car in HS?

aansorge:

No they will get spanked by a smaller margin (of course driver dependent) and will be more likely to think that they will have a decent shot at the next event.

So getting beat by 7 seconds by an NA car is better than getting beat by 8 seconds by a turbo car?

aansorge:

I think that occasionally a high school senior or young college kid shows up for his first autocross and he or she is driving one of the cars I listed.  If he or she sees that his car is going to be going up against a bunch of Cooper S's they are going to know he will never be able to compete so why comeback?  I know that there aren't Cooper S's at every local autocross event. . .

Do you think it matters what car they lose to?  Be it a CooperS, Integra Type R, Mini NA, Honda Civic, etc.?  STS is a place where a lot of these cars get placed anyway since everyone who come to the event seems to have done something STS like to their car.  In our region they get trounced by an '89 Civic.  Does that make them feel better?  The same Civic also raw times many novices in SS, AS, and BS.  People who leave because they lose are not usually the ones we want to stick around anyway. 
 

SpyderVenom:

aansorge:

I think that occasionally a high school senior or young college kid shows up for his first autocross and he or she is driving one of the cars I listed.  If he or she sees that his car is going to be going up against a bunch of Cooper S's they are going to know he will never be able to compete so why comeback?  I know that there aren't Cooper S's at every local autocross event. . .

Do you think it matters what car they lose to?  Be it a CooperS, Integra Type R, Mini NA, Honda Civic, etc.?  STS is a place where a lot of these cars get placed anyway since everyone who come to the event seems to have done something STS like to their car.  In our region they get trounced by an '89 Civic.  Does that make them feel better?  The same Civic also raw times many novices in SS, AS, and BS.  People who leave because they lose are not usually the ones we want to stick around anyway. 
 

that works for me...  I stay because I lose!

i do lose by slightly less year over year though...I think...

(owns a Cooper S that is regularly trounced by any number of Civic drivers!)

of course I'm a college drop-out, so perhaps that explains it?

True, many people who first show up to autocross are in STS trim cars.  That is a good point. 

I think maybe I sidetracked the argument by bringing in the emotional element of a high schooler's feelings. 

Still, first impressions are important in autocross, you either get hooked or you don't. 

You guys are probably correct.  What difference does it make moving these cars?  Little.  Most of the ones I highlighted are old and worthless and few will ever see an autocross so I guess I shouldn't bother. 

And it's funny, on the forums dedicated to my Mazda3, we get pleny of first time autocrossers.  Almost all don't care that they got beat by 4 seconds (or 6 or 8).  They just care that they had a blast and can't wait to get back to it.

Newbies that want to win will eventually buy a car that is competitive or will mod their car to a class where the car will be competitive, or will just accept that their car is just not the car to have and live with it.

aansorge:

You guys are probably correct.  What difference does it make moving these cars?  Little.  Most of the ones I highlighted are old and worthless and few will ever see an autocross so I guess I shouldn't bother. 

And that was kind of my point about the Cavalier. If someone's really excited about that car, bring it to the SEB's attention, and maybe they'll move it, but they're not going to assume anyone cares about a car like that unless they hear about it. 

Now that you have picked the cars that you think are slow, follow this up with specs.  Go through each year of each model, list HP, Torque, Curb Weight, Wheelbase, Track, Wheel sizes.

Trust me if it was that easy then you could get a ZX3 Focus to run well in HS! Or if you looked at the Camaro SS compared to the Shelby you would never run a Shelby.....

Andy Hollis:

Here's what I said to a couple of SEB members over the weekend:

Re-orgs always cost people money.  Major re-orgs cost major numbers of people major amounts of money.  With gas prices what they are and the economy where it is, is NOW really the right time to "fix" something that is not exactly broken in any significant way?  Especially if the result is killing off a "cheap" class in favor of another expensive class.

--Andy
 

THAT IS RIGHT ON THE MONEY!!!!!!!