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Correct any ecotec engined  FWD is stuck in G stock. That is why I have written and asked! All J-body Cavs and Sunfire 2.0 or 2.2 = Hstock.(2600lbs, 120 hp.) The Ecotec  and Quad 4 Cavalier = (2800 lbs 140 hp). =G stock  . I still think the 165 hp turbo sunbirds 89-91 should stay in G(if you can find one) . The V-6 Cavaliers were even heavier 140 hp 2700 lbs, but they are in G also. I still don't like the argument that since nobody brings them out to run in their area as a areason not to even look at reclassing them. But I'll get over it. Have for 14 years whats another year!

I couldn't agree more......I don't want to cater to the whiny pansies who cry when they don't win. New people loose because they get outdriven. Not because of what cars are in their class.

Having an argument over how new people will do in certain cars in certain classes is pointless. Moving a Car with a low 6 sec to 60 performance and heavy weight to HS may not be a good idea either.

The SEB and SAC do a good job of classing cars. I'd say lets look at the whole proposal over the  few months and write letters.

Times have GOT to change. Do you guys really want an entire club of GP?  ;)

 

SpyderVenom:

aansorge:

I think that occasionally a high school senior or young college kid shows up for his first autocross and he or she is driving one of the cars I listed.  If he or she sees that his car is going to be going up against a bunch of Cooper S's they are going to know he will never be able to compete so why comeback?  I know that there aren't Cooper S's at every local autocross event. . .

Do you think it matters what car they lose to?  Be it a CooperS, Integra Type R, Mini NA, Honda Civic, etc.?  STS is a place where a lot of these cars get placed anyway since everyone who come to the event seems to have done something STS like to their car.  In our region they get trounced by an '89 Civic.  Does that make them feel better?  The same Civic also raw times many novices in SS, AS, and BS.  People who leave because they lose are not usually the ones we want to stick around anyway. 
 

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

I find it hard to believe that a 14 year old J body is a car that the masses will come out to run in HS. Or a lot of cars for that matter........I'd say about 60% of the cars in stock class are "also ran" cars. Why?

-  Not everyone can be competitive in the car of their choice.
-  The SAC and SEB don't have time to spend weeding through every piece of crap made for the last 25 years to see where it could competitively run.

Don't like it? Sorry, that's life. It's not how Barney makes it out to be. :)

BUT.......I do agree there are cars that are misclassed by performance #s.........the 914 for example.....but it would be next to impossible to get one legal for stock class and keep it going......and if it becomes "the car" then you have an un-obtainable car at the top.......  :(   So it needs to be in a class where it can't win.

 

autoxr2:

Correct any ecotec engined  FWD is stuck in G stock. That is why I have written and asked! All J-body Cavs and Sunfire 2.0 or 2.2 = Hstock.(2600lbs, 120 hp.) The Ecotec  and Quad 4 Cavalier = (2800 lbs 140 hp). =G stock  . I still think the 165 hp turbo sunbirds 89-91 should stay in G(if you can find one) . The V-6 Cavaliers were even heavier 140 hp 2700 lbs, but they are in G also. I still don't like the argument that since nobody brings them out to run in their area as a areason not to even look at reclassing them. But I'll get over it. Have for 14 years whats another year!

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

As much as I agree with the original poster, more people try to turn J-bodies into drag cars than ever auto-x. There are probably less than 15 of us in all of North America, who bother trying to run these regularly in any class. You want to feel outclassed? Try running against a fully prepped E36 in DSP! They aren't as bad as people perceive, but there are far better options, so they never really caught on among the Solo crowd, and for the time being I have resigned to being happy enough to get out there and make the odd person locally give their head a shake every now and again when they see the times come up on the board and realize they just got beat the car they were just laughing at in grid.

 P.S. Refer to my sig below :)

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1990 Z24 - CACC DSP
What kind of idiot solo's an old cavalier?
Victoria Motorsports Club

I have an autopatheic (automatic) protege that I run from time to time for fun........but I don't expect the SCCA to create a class slower than HS for it to run in LOL. There isn't a timer in the world with that kind of capacity short of a sundial.

But I get what oldskoolz is saying........its a car you run for fun to make people think "how did i just get beat by a j body?"   Much like my protege LOL :)

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

No way is the SEB and SAC going to look into the details of every car classed to determine where it should be competitive.  If it's not a no brainier then I think they are going to leave certain cars where they are.  This is how writing a letter comes into play.  If they don't think a significant number of people want to run a certain car they are not going to spend a lot of time on it and I really don't see a problem with that.  However, If you write a clear letter outlining specs and performance, then I'm sure the SEB will take a look.  It's nothing against anyone or any car, it's more of a how to use the SEB and SAC's time in the best interest of the club at large.

 

Think about older G-bodies as an example minus the Buick Grand National.  I don't think an 80's G-body could out run GS or even HS for that matter.  Park one next to a Shebly Mustang and have anyone tell me they belong together in FS.  I (as a member) would rather have the SEB and SAC work on other more popular autocross cars then on figuring out exactly how fast an old G-body is just in case a few show up around the country.  Now if the SEB got a few letters from people that wanted to run those cars, then that should warrant a look. 

 

I know someone will forward this a G-body list and I'll get tons of hate mail. 

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Phil K.
2002 Camaro SS, #68 ESP

P-Z:

I don't know about the 'big picture', but am willing to give it a month to see the proposal for 2010 to get an idea of where Stock is heading.

As to 140HP Cavaliers - who cares?

As to the Del Sol - betting that someone wrote a letter.  Yes, it has 160 HP with a 2500lb curb weight, but torque is 111lb/ft, wheels are 5.5, and it has the torsional rigidity of overcooked spaghetti and that gets worse when you take the top off.    As an HS competitor, I have no problem with the move.  I'll even write a letter. 

BTW, I am betting that you are going to see a lot of the really slow GS cars get moved to HS in the 2010 proposal.

 

Good thing to do would be to move the MCS to DS and the Mini to GS. Keep everything else the same.

autoxr2:

My point is the committees will likely rule they way that serves them best or classes they run in, because they are not concerned with anyone else and what they run.

As someone who's volunteered a lot of personal time and effort to the club it is with great restraint that I don't send a volley of f-bombs your way.  In fact, some of those committee members will actually be hurt by the very changes they are proposing.  I did attempt to put a bunch of data together awhile back (when I was a single, non-parent, non-homeowner) and found that it didn't really lead to any concrete conclusions.  At the time my Celica ST had just been moved from HS to the old ES.  Despite it's numbers, on certain courses/conditions it could compete against the best DS car of the time, a Neon ACR.  A cars autocrossing potential can't always be seen from just looking at the numbers. 

Emailing seb@scca.com is the correct way to be heard.  We do have a newer system in place to direct the emails to the correct committees.

Jeff 

cashmo:

autoxr2:

My point is the committees will likely rule they way that serves them best or classes they run in, because they are not concerned with anyone else and what they run.

As someone who's volunteered a lot of personal time and effort to the club it is with great restraint that I don't send a volley of f-bombs your way.  In fact, some of those committee members will actually be hurt by the very changes they are proposing.  I did attempt to put a bunch of data together awhile back (when I was a single, non-parent, non-homeowner) and found that it didn't really lead to any concrete conclusions.  At the time my Celica ST had just been moved from HS to the old ES.  Despite it's numbers, on certain courses/conditions it could compete against the best DS car of the time, a Neon ACR.  A cars autocrossing potential can't always be seen from just looking at the numbers. 

Emailing seb@scca.com is the correct way to be heard.  We do have a newer system in place to direct the emails to the correct committees.

Jeff 

Nice restraint. Please know there are many members that greatly appreciate the hard work you do and do not believe that there is some sinister agenda in place. Its nice to see you guys stop by and give us more information and explanation about the process. Explaining some of the inner workings of the process will let us understand the difficult issues being tackled, how they are tackled, and how much work you guys put into it - removing the mystery and speculation on the process. Thanks.  

PS Any idea when the e46 M3 might get into STU... its not so much for me, my STi/Evo friends have been looking forward to beating up on the Ultimate Driving Machine...

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
SMS - M3 e46
(STU in 2009 - Thanks SEB! :) )

Jason;

 Jeff, John, Drew and myself are SAC members.  Goto SCCA dot com and lookup who's on the STAC.  Most likely there is someone you know or will find at a NT or Pro.  Thats a great place to start.
 

dammit, I wanna see the f-bombs ...

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"Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car.
Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you." --Anonymous