SCCAForums.com

Andy Hollis:

Oh yeah, and the ubiquitous "greater than the sum of its parts" which typically applies to BMW & Honda and not usually to American cars.--Andy

AH, I used to agree with the statement, but lately BMW (and even Honda) are allowing their cars to get porkier and porkier. The 1 Series could have been a return to the sum of the parts, but alas, too much weight and no limited slip (make Matt a slow boy).

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Matt Murray

I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today.

You know, they might have not thought out what "greater than the sum of its parts" meant. Maybe they thought it meant the cars needed to be heavier and porkier and not faster and quicker?

-Mike

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Mike Shields
1993 BMW 325is | 92/192 DSP

Mike Shields:

You know, they might have not thought out what "greater than the sum of its parts" meant. Maybe they thought it meant the cars needed to be heavier and porkier and not faster and quicker?

-Mike

Good point.  I mean, lots of the parts on the new BMWs are fancy lightweight aluminum and carbon fiber.  But the "sum" ends up being pretty damned heavy.

They made extensive use of lightweight materials.  Really, really extensive use.  Like, maybe they should have used less.

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John Vitamvas
stranoparts.com / TeamWTF.org '04 Z06

mattm:

AH, I used to agree with the statement, but lately BMW (and even Honda) are allowing their cars to get porkier and porkier. The 1 Series could have been a return to the sum of the parts, but alas, too much weight and no limited slip (make Matt a slow boy).

Good thing the ITR is greater than the sum of its parts, hunnh Matt?

Regards,

Alan "who was busy prepping said parts earlier today"

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Alan Pozner
Slow and proud

Gromit801:

The overwhelming majority of autocrossers in SCCA are essentially ignored.

A stock category is a stock category. Aside from some stickier DOT approved tires, there not much more one is allowed to do to their car. So what has "best prepped" have to do with a stock category? I can set my car up with great tires, and place Fernando Alonso behind the wheel, but he's not going to win in my class, regionally or nationally, in STOCK form.

The overwhelming majority of autocrossers only do it once or twice and never come back.  At least half of those have mods that bump them into a modified or prepared class which generally guarantees a last place finish for somebody without race tires.  The lucky ones wind up in a street tire class and get hammered too.

How exactly is SCCA supposed to cater to them?

 

If they decide to stick around, they come back to have fun in their car as is, or they start modding for a specific class if they want to have fun (that's number 1) AND be competitive.  If they really enjoy autox AND want to be competitive, a new (or used) car generally comes into play when funds allow (could be a year, or it could be 5).

 

 Strolling up to a marathon start line in some new running shoes doesn't mean you have a chance in hell of winning, nor should you.




 

 

 

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wheelspecs.com

EL PAALO:

Gromit801:

The overwhelming majority of autocrossers in SCCA are essentially ignored.

A stock category is a stock category. Aside from some stickier DOT approved tires, there not much more one is allowed to do to their car. So what has "best prepped" have to do with a stock category? I can set my car up with great tires, and place Fernando Alonso behind the wheel, but he's not going to win in my class, regionally or nationally, in STOCK form.

The overwhelming majority of autocrossers only do it once or twice and never come back.  At least half of those have mods that bump them into a modified or prepared class which generally guarantees a last place finish for somebody without race tires.  The lucky ones wind up in a street tire class and get hammered too.

How exactly is SCCA supposed to cater to them?

 

If they decide to stick around, they come back to have fun in their caras is, or they start modding for a specific class if they want to havefun (that's number 1) AND be competitive.  If they really enjoy autox AND want to be competitive, a new (or used) car generally comes into play when funds allow (could be a year, or it could be 5).

 

 Strolling up to a marathon start line in some new running shoes doesn't mean you have a chance in hell of winning, nor should you.

 

So what part of "autocrossers IN SCCA," was hard to understand?   That vast majority of dues paying members who only seem to matter to SCCA when it comes to coughing up money for National events.

As you your comment about autocrossers running a couple times and leaving, WELL DUH!  Why should they stay?  Why should they join SCCA?  There's nothing in SCCA anymore to accommodate people who want to run their completely stock car, and still want to be competitive.   Anyone remember the concept of "Showroom Stock?"

So many people have their heads so clogged with mods and "throw money at it until it wins," bullshiet. 

perhaps i'm missing your point?  as a little guy that is not competitive nationally can i tackle the questions you raised?

why did i stay?  because i love autocross, and i love driving the jcw mini at 11 tenths

why did i join? because the NER is full of great folks - talented drivers that volunteer endlessly to create a venue for competition.  because SCCA regional programs are seeded with national level drivers who teach by example and as instructors, and set a high standard on the course.  because i'd rather be a small frog in a big pond.

why am i not competitive? because i am still learning, and perhaps will never be among the fast.  not all of us can be.  but i have learned this much - it's about the driver.  only when the driver is really good does it become about the car.

why am i struck by your frustration? because if i got good enough as a driver, admitting that takes years and serious effort and more than a little cost (travel and tires!), such that i wanted to tread on the national stage, i would have had a few years to pick my car for that effort and set my budget accordingly.

i guess i'm puzzled at our opposite reactions to the classing of the JCW.  no disrespect intended.

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Charlie Thompson
'04 JCW Cooper [STX]
NER Cannon Fodder

Gromit801:

[

So what part of "autocrossers IN SCCA," was hard to understand?   That vast majority of dues paying members who only seem to matter to SCCA when it comes to coughing up money for National events.

As you your comment about autocrossers running a couple times and leaving, WELL DUH!  Why should they stay?  Why should they join SCCA?  There's nothing in SCCA anymore to accommodate people who want to run their completely stock car, and still want to be competitive.   Anyone remember the concept of "Showroom Stock?"

So many people have their heads so clogged with mods and "throw money at it until it wins," bullshiet. 

 

Cole? 

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo - SOLD!
<----- 2009 - Regain the coveted Tri Pod Trophy for the Hiedi's

cmt52663:

......because if i got good enough as a driver, admitting that takes years and serious effort and more than a little cost (travel and tires!), such that i wanted to tread on the national stage....

cmt52663,

Good on ya' buddy. Nice, positive attitude. I think the NER folks are great too. But I don't think you should wait to jump into National events. If you like autox wait until oyu try ProSolo! And Nationals in Topeka is worth the drive just for the paddock. Neither you nor I may ever be good enough for a National Championship but I'm tellin' ya' its fun trying! Hope to see you and your JCW with us other trophy fodder guys at the next big event.

Regards,

Alan

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Alan Pozner
Slow and proud

00R101:

cmt52663:

......because if i got good enough as a driver, admitting that takes years and serious effort and more than a little cost (travel and tires!), such that i wanted to tread on the national stage....

Good on ya' buddy. Nice, positive attitude. I think the NER folks are great too. But I don't think you should wait to jump into National events. If you like autox wait until oyu try ProSolo! And Nationals in Topeka is worth the drive just for the paddock. Neither you nor I may ever be good enough for a National Championship but I'm tellin' ya' its fun trying!

Alan has it right.  I went to my first National event after only 5 local events and took the 20 hour drive to Nationals my first year.  It was worth it just to see AM and CP drive. 

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

Gromit801:

So what part of "autocrossers IN SCCA," was hard to understand?   That vast majority of dues paying members who only seem to matter to SCCA when it comes to coughing up money for National events.

As you your comment about autocrossers running a couple times and leaving, WELL DUH!  Why should they stay?  Why should they join SCCA?  There's nothing in SCCA anymore to accommodate people who want to run their completely stock car, and still want to be competitive.   Anyone remember the concept of "Showroom Stock?"

So many people have their heads so clogged with mods and "throw money at it until it wins," bullshiet. 

When did Stock (talking Solo here, not club racing) mean a bone-stock car?  I haven't been at this that long, so I really don't know. 

You want to be competitive?  You picked the wrong car.  It sucks, but not every car can be competitive.  It will always be that way. 

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John Vitamvas
stranoparts.com / TeamWTF.org '04 Z06

SpyderVenom:

 

Alan has it right.  I went to my first National event after only 5 local events and took the 20 hour drive to Nationals my first year.  It was worth it just to see AM and CP drive. 

I went to my 1st nationals this past fall oafter only 1 full season of solo locally in a basically stock car ( just pads upgraded and GM doing an alignment on site ) and finished DFL in my class due to conekills... it was worth every penny I spent, had NO regrets of where I finished and I WILL be back this season in the same car, but with some shocks now. Car won't most likely trophy, but I'll have a blast with the others I know there, and with NEW people I meet as well.

Someday I'll get a competitive car, but for now I'm working on seat time and finding out all I can about the sport.

I can see how even in Stock classes where you can get crazy with maxing the car out within the rules, but I guess it all depends on where you want to be at any given time.

I could've thrown another 3K + into my car with the LSD tranny and stock Recaro seats for the package to stay legal, and still not do much better than mid-pack.

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

If I can just get my sorry butt off of unemployment (fingers crossed in the next two weeks) I will indeed make my first pilgrimage to Topeka this year, for all the reasons given.  Thanks to all for the encouragement.   

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Charlie Thompson
'04 JCW Cooper [STX]
NER Cannon Fodder

My solo chair last summer said "if you can swing it... go to nats ASAP... You will regret it once you do that you waited..."

 He was 100% right.

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

John V:

[

When did Stock (talking Solo here, not club racing) mean a bone-stock car?  I haven't been at this that long, so I really don't know. 

I have been at this for quite some time and can answer that.  Stock was never "bone-stock".  I've got some really old rulebooks and the allowances for shocks, exhaust, front sway bar, alignment, etc. are all there.

What has changed is the level of seriousness in prep.  Back then, there were no National Tours, Pro Solo, significant manufacturer involvement or even awareness of autocross beyond the participants.  All of that has changed in a big way.  The sport has grown...a lot.  And with any competitive endeavor, the more people participate and the higher the stakes, the taller the pyramid.  The other big change is the availability of information over the Internet.  Back in the day, probably five people in the whole country knew what the absolute best car in any particular class was, and how best to prep it.  Few cared and fewer still  went to nationals and did their homework while there.  Now that information is out there for all to see.   And debate.   

--Andy

 

Gromit801:

So what part of "autocrossers IN SCCA," was hard to understand? That vast majority of dues paying members who only seem to matter to SCCA when it comes to coughing up money for National events.

As you your comment about autocrossers running a couple times and leaving, WELL DUH! Why should they stay? Why should they join SCCA? There's nothing in SCCA anymore to accommodate people who want to run their completely stock car, and still want to be competitive. Anyone remember the concept of "Showroom Stock?"

So many people have their heads so clogged with mods and "throw money at it until it wins," bullshiet.

You seem to have missed my points.

My first point is that most people only show up a couple of times.  There is already a provision for them; it's called novice class.

    These people largely don't come back because they didn't like it, didn't understand it, it's too early in the morning, 6 minutes on course isn't worth 8 hours, whatever.  I've never heard somebody say they're not coming back because they're not competitive.

My second point was that most new folks show up already modded (You are in the extreme minority from my experience).  In fact, the most common question I see or hear from new people is what do I need to do to my car to get better.  Driver improvement (through practice at more autox or schools) is the overwhelming answer followed by tires.  Only when someone is serious do mods start to come into play for whatever class, especially in stock class.
 

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wheelspecs.com

John V:

When did Stock (talking Solo here, not club racing) mean a bone-stock car?  I haven't been at this that long, so I really don't know. 

You want to be competitive?  You picked the wrong car.  It sucks, but not every car can be competitive.  It will always be that way. 

It's OK John, you will see this every so often.  Someone comes into the sport with it's existing rules and classes, doesn't fit in the way they would like, and will proceed to tear down the organization and the people behind it because of it. 

They will say things like "why isn't my car classed right...you guys are wrong", "are you guys F'n nuts, we should only be running street tires", "Stock should be true Stock", "people leave Solo because the rules suck", "why can't I show up in my bone stock Cavalier and be competitive...SCCA is holding us down", "why can't the local guy be competitive at Nationals...SCCA is holding them down", "Why do the all the elite National drivers get to make all the decisions....how about letting us local drivers make the rules".....ah let's see....oh yeah, there's "it costs too much to win, why can they makes rules so the little guy can afford it", "the little local guy is being ignored by SCCA",  "why can't the National office see that I'm right....they suffer from group think", "SCCA is close minded because they don't agree with me", "car companies that offer contingencies get their cars classed to be the overdogs",  "contingency money is unfair....why should the National drivers only get in on that".  I'm sure there's more.....ahhhh..."why doesn't SCCA listen to us?", "everything is broken", "board members always get their cars favorably classed, and write rules biased to what they drive", "SCCA drives members away, it's a sinking ship", "why can't all cars be competitive", "I don't have time to propose my own classing that would fix all the problems I'm complaining about...someone else should figure out how to solve what I think is wrong.", ...

Well, you get the idea.  As you can imagine, these things have come up before.  All about attitude.

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo - SOLD!
<----- 2009 - Regain the coveted Tri Pod Trophy for the Hiedi's

Pat have you been keeping a list of all those? You must be lurking on Nasioc quite often :)

 

Kudos - you have nailed just about all the stupid complaints I've heard in one post 

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Nick Jackson
04 S2000 - BHP Brakes
71 240z w/some stuff

When I attended my 1st Autocross, I had my car bone stock down to brake pads and the OEM tires still...

I had bought it before I ever saw an autocross in person, without the intention on using it for this. Had I done so,  I'd be drving a WAY different car.

Between my lack of experience and lack of car prep ( and car itself ) I've never been competitive, at least not when in my own car. I don't think I've heard any newbie complain about the rules except when talking # plates...

Rules are rules... if you come into it new, you need to understand them before you rip on any organization and it's keepers.

 

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS