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Last Post 19 Jun 2013 10:10 PM by  Robert Puertas
factory five 818
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t walgamuth
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30 May 2013 07:08 PM
    Has this car been classified yet?  Can it simply run in the appropriate mod class?
    47CP
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    30 May 2013 08:23 PM
    A request has been sent to class it in EM, but as of a few months ago, there wasn't stable production data to allow it (yet).

    Are they actually in production yet?

    Until they get approved in D-E Mod, they can run in AM.

    DaveW
    t walgamuth
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    30 May 2013 10:33 PM
    The new Road and Track has a road test of one and makes it appear as if you can order one for about ten grand or so. I went to the factory five website and found it to be less than suggested in the article. It will accept a $99 deposit but you have to say that you will accept changes in the specification and no list price or date of delivery is offered. That's pretty discouraging. the car looks to have real promise.
    Robert Puertas
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    30 May 2013 11:44 PM
    I hear GRM is also building one.
    I would think this will be a slam dunk for EM under the kit car allowance... once it's been in production for a few months and all the info stabilizes.

    Sounds like a good project to slip under the Christmas tree.
    t walgamuth
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    31 May 2013 06:05 AM
    That does sound like a good fit.
    Grintch
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    05 Jun 2013 11:31 AM
    I suspect it may be a bit heavy for EM. There are some kit cars recognized for XP, that might be a more competitive place for them.
    t walgamuth
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    15 Jun 2013 05:26 PM
    IIRC it is 2000# (818 kilos) and has whatever the subie makes...270 hp?

    If one put in a non turbo mill they could run a certain poundage less, right? 300? or 200?

    I am a little intimitdated by maintaining the turbo mill (thought the popping and buzzing on over run would be good clean fun!)
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    15 Jun 2013 06:20 PM
    Posted By t walgamuth on 15 Jun 2013 05:26 PM
    IIRC it is 2000# (818 kilos) and has whatever the subie makes...270 hp?

    If one put in a non turbo mill they could run a certain poundage less, right? 300? or 200?

    I am a little intimitdated by maintaining the turbo mill (thought the popping and buzzing on over run would be good clean fun!)

    For EM?  How much displacement is the subie motor?   Should be 1850# with or without Turbo in EM, including driver.

    DaveW


    t walgamuth
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    17 Jun 2013 07:19 AM
    Seems like the motor is around 3.6 liters. No consideration of a turbo vs aspirated, heh? I had a lively discussion with a couple of other fellows yesterday. We are all hot for an 818. Both of them have built 7 kits. It would be my first.
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    17 Jun 2013 08:06 AM

    Here are the EM weights.   No difference on Turbo.    Is it possible to get a 818  down to ~1600# without driver?  That seems pretty light for anything bigger than a 7 or Sprite.

     

    E Modified (EM)
    Modified Production and GT cars as follows:
    A. Weight (with driver) vs. Displacement
    Piston engines up to & including 3200 cc OHC: 1700 lbs
    Piston engines up to & including 4500 cc pushrod/OHV: 1700 lbs
    2-rotor rotary engines w/ unrestricted porting: 1700 lbs
    Piston engines unlimited displacement: 1800 lbs
    3-rotor rotary engines w/ unrestricted porting: 1800 lbs
    Electric powerplants (non-hybrid) 1800 lbs
    B. Performance Adjustments
    AWD: Add 300 lbs
    Modified Tub: Add 50 lbs
    C. Weight Bias Adjustment - with driver sitting in the driver’s seat
    RWD w/ less than 51% weight on drive wheels: Deduct 50 lbs
    FWD: Deduct 50 lbs

     

    DaveW

    Scootin159
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    17 Jun 2013 09:35 AM
    Posted By t walgamuth on 17 Jun 2013 07:19 AM
    Seems like the motor is around 3.6 liters. No consideration of a turbo vs aspirated, heh? I had a lively discussion with a couple of other fellows yesterday. We are all hot for an 818. Both of them have built 7 kits. It would be my first.

    Doubt many people would be putting the 6cyl 3.6l engine (the 6cyl that came in the Legacy) in there.  I'm pretty sure the 818 is being designed around a 4cyl WRX drivetrain, which means either a 2.0l turbo or a 2.5l turbo.  The non-turbo versions of these engines would be a direct swap as well, but would take a big horsepower hit.  The 2.5l would be the ideal option for autocross though - even though raw power output isn't *that* much more than the 2.0l, you end up with much less boost lag and more mid-range torque.  A stock 2.5l will have ~300hp, but ~400hp takes little more than an aggressive tune and a more open exhaust.  500-600hp isn't out of the relm of reason with a turbo swap, but you'll pretty quickly get diminishing returns from turbo lag & traction issues.

    Dropping the weight of an 818 for EM trim should be pretty doable.  From the "factory" they're using as many stock WRX components as possible - which while it is easier and cheaper, those components end up being much heavier (and stronger) than really needed.

    Grintch
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    17 Jun 2013 09:57 AM
    That's 1600 lbs WITH driver. It will be interesting to see where the R model comes in, weight wise. But I suspect it will be 200-400+ the EM minimum. And given that most of the heavy stuff has been ditched, hard to make up the difference.



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    17 Jun 2013 10:02 AM
    With a 2.0 or 2.5l it would be 1700 with driver, 1500-ish without.

    DaveW
    t walgamuth
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    17 Jun 2013 10:32 AM
    Posted By Grintch on 17 Jun 2013 09:57 AM
    That's 1600 lbs WITH driver. It will be interesting to see where the R model comes in, weight wise. But I suspect it will be 200-400+ the EM minimum. And given that most of the heavy stuff has been ditched, hard to make up the difference.


    Thanks for being so polite about the motor....what was I thinking? 


    Grintch
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    17 Jun 2013 10:41 AM
    Well, 2.5 * 1.4 = 3.5, so 3.6 is not that far off with the turbo equivalency factor. And the 1850 number someone suggested sounds abpit right. And much easier to get close too.
    P.s. FFR says the 6 cylinder (and 6 speed) will not fit.
    t walgamuth
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    17 Jun 2013 10:52 AM
    it was my understanding that the name 818 refers to kilos which equals about 2000#. If that includes the standard subie seats, upholstery and so forth then 100# can be cut fairly quickly. Light calipers rotors and wheels probably will cut at least 50# or so. Leave off top and windshield and spare and you are another 50 or so.

    Its pretty interesting.
    47CP
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    17 Jun 2013 08:36 PM
    Posted By Grintch on 17 Jun 2013 10:41 AM
    Well, 2.5 * 1.4 = 3.5, so 3.6 is not that far off with the turbo equivalency factor. And the 1850 number someone suggested sounds abpit right. And much easier to get close too.
    P.s. FFR says the 6 cylinder (and 6 speed) will not fit.

    Are we talking about EM still?   There is no *1.4 there....

     

    DaveW

    Grintch
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    18 Jun 2013 01:41 PM

    Posted By <span class='af-profile-name'>47CP</span> on 17 Jun 2013 08:36 PM

    Posted By <span class="af-profile-name">Grintch</span> on 17 Jun 2013 10:41 AM


    Well, 2.5 * 1.4 = 3.5, so 3.6 is not that far off with the turbo equivalency factor. And the 1850 number someone suggested sounds abpit right. And much easier to get close too.

    P.s. FFR says the 6 cylinder (and 6 speed) will not fit.


    <p>Are we talking about EM still?   There is no *1.4 there....</p>
    <p> </p>
    <p>DaveW </p>


    Used to be in appendix A. You have to be carefull as I dont care for how the rules are split between the two sections.
    47CP
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    18 Jun 2013 01:59 PM
    Posted By Grintch on 18 Jun 2013 01:41 PM

    Posted By 47CP on 17 Jun 2013 08:36 PM

    Posted By Grintch on 17 Jun 2013 10:41 AM


    Well, 2.5 * 1.4 = 3.5, so 3.6 is not that far off with the turbo equivalency factor. And the 1850 number someone suggested sounds abpit right. And much easier to get close too.

    P.s. FFR says the 6 cylinder (and 6 speed) will not fit.


    Are we talking about EM still?   There is no *1.4 there....


     


    DaveW




    Used to be in appendix A. You have to be carefull as I dont care for how the rules are split between the two sections.

    I was careful   I even cut/paste the entire EM section from appendix A....

    And the 1850 isn't a suggestion, it is the rule.  If I got to make the suggestion, I think something above 2000 is a better answer for the so called big production car class.

    There is no 1.4 turbo multiplier in EM, only DM.   Never has been one in EM that I can think of, engine size really doesn't matter in E.

     

    DaveW

     

    Grintch
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    18 Jun 2013 05:43 PM
    Posted By 47CP on 18 Jun 2013 01:59 PM


    I was careful   I even cut/paste the entire EM section from appendix A....

    And the 1850 isn't a suggestion, it is the rule.  If I got to make the suggestion, I think something above 2000 is a better answer for the so called big production car class.

    There is no 1.4 turbo multiplier in EM, only DM.   Never has been one in EM that I can think of, engine size really doesn't matter in E.

     DaveW

     

    Not careful enough.

     18.1.B

     4. Internal and external components of the engine, transmission,and rear differential are unrestricted. Any shifting mechanism or pattern is permitted. Driveshafts may be made of any material deemed safe. Supercharging and turbocharging are permitted without restriction but shall require the displacement specifics of Section 18.0.B.3.

     6. Supercharging and turbocharging are permitted for all engines subject to the displacement factor of 18.B.

     18.0.B.3  Turbocharged or supercharged versions of the above engines will be classified on a basis of 1.4 times the computed displacement.

    Oddly enough you got the weight right (both DM & EM got a good bit heavier in a rule shakeup in 2005 or so, which is why I was originally thinking a lower weight).  Even though, if you neglect the 1.4x factor, you should have come up with a 1750lb minimum.

    XP is the highly modified production car class, DM/EM is for orphans and "in excess" GT1-GTL type cars.  I have never understood why XP picks and chooses some kit cars to allow but not others.  As far as I am concerned they should all go in DM/EM or XP depending solely on displacement and weight.  With the possible exception of very race oriented, sports racer type kit cars.

     

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    18 Jun 2013 09:02 PM
    Yep, missed that. You win. We won't go into the "huge weight change" in 2005 that was just adding the driver...

    I do agree the classes are wacky and so is the rule book. I should have said that before.

    I guess no one knows yet, but I am wondering if the 818 can be gotten down to 1500lbs-ish with the 2.0l turbo motor?

    Or 1600 with a larger motor?

    One the 818 is in actual production, I wouldn't anticipate a problem with it being approved for D-E mod. I don't know the standards for kit cars in XP, but I suspect that they are much stricter, so I have no idea if it will also get approved there.

    DaveW
    Grintch
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    18 Jun 2013 09:46 PM
    IIRC correctly DM was 1000lb without driver, that went to 1420lb for a modified tub 2L LL7 with a slight rear weight bias. Even I am not that fat.

    The EM changes were not as drastic, and for the smaller displacement, no modified tub cars was basicly adding the weight of the driver to the old without driver minimum weight. A bigger engined car with a mod tub, the right weight bias had to add about another 200lb. Rather a big deal on a 1500lb dry car.

    But overall I liked the change in weight, I did not like seeing motorcycle engines being outlawed just as bike engined cars were catching on with the Locost and kit car communities.

    As for kits in XP, I would like to see standards, rather than backroom deals to allow some while excluding others. They probably have some, but I hate unwritten rules.
    Robert Puertas
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    18 Jun 2013 10:34 PM
    I would think XP would be ok with a "high production" kit car, which any Factory Five kit will certainly be, so long as it is bigger and heavier (ie: more than 1.8 liters FI) than a supercharged Elise, and doesn't exhibit some element of it's design that is otherwise more race-car-like than an Elise. So, no Radicals or X-bows or Atoms or Sevens or Beck 550s.
    t walgamuth
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    19 Jun 2013 07:15 AM
    So, If you have it right, and I hope you do, using the normally aspirated engine might be competitive in D mod? Up to 2 liters is it?
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    19 Jun 2013 09:52 AM
    Posted By t walgamuth on 19 Jun 2013 07:15 AM
    So, If you have it right, and I hope you do, using the normally aspirated engine might be competitive in D mod? Up to 2 liters is it?

    All depends on the final weight on the 818, the overall dimensions and your definition of competitive, IMO.

    Can it get down to 1200-1300lbs?   The 1420 for DM is with driver. 

    In both classes, it *might* have trouble getting enough rear weight bias and might be too large of a footprint to be competitive (funny that I say that) for the top spots. 

    I hope that it is able to be competitive in either class, we need the new blood and the cars are cool.

    DaveW

    FritzSpeed
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    19 Jun 2013 11:06 AM
    I sat in the 818R at Carlisle last month, and it is much bigger than the top EM cars, and bigger than my XP MGB (with a 55" minimum track width). It's well executed, and a very cool track day car, but I can't see it being competitive nationally in EM.

    Joe
    t walgamuth
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    19 Jun 2013 11:39 AM
    From what I have seen and read I don't imagine it can get to 1300#.

    We may need to lobby to get into CS. (joke).
    47CP
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    19 Jun 2013 12:19 PM
    We may need to lobby to get into CS. (joke).

    On street tires....

    DaveW

    Grintch
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    19 Jun 2013 03:43 PM

    Posted By <span class='af-profile-name'>Robert Puertas</span> on 18 Jun 2013 10:34 PM
    I would think XP would be ok with a "high production" kit car, which any Factory Five kit will certainly be, so long as it is bigger and heavier (ie: more than 1.8 liters FI) than a supercharged Elise, and doesn't exhibit some element of it's design that is otherwise more race-car-like than an Elise. So, no Radicals or X-bows or Atoms or Sevens or Beck 550s.

    Why no 7's or 550s? Both have high production for a kit. And both are based on 50+ year old technology.
    t walgamuth
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    19 Jun 2013 07:58 PM
    From what I have seen and read I don't imagine it can get to 1300#.

    We may need to lobby to get into CS. (joke).
    Robert Puertas
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    19 Jun 2013 10:10 PM
    Posted By Grintch on 19 Jun 2013 03:43 PM

    Posted By Robert Puertas on 18 Jun 2013 10:34 PM
    I would think XP would be ok with a "high production" kit car, which any Factory Five kit will certainly be, so long as it is bigger and heavier (ie: more than 1.8 liters FI) than a supercharged Elise, and doesn't exhibit some element of it's design that is otherwise more race-car-like than an Elise. So, no Radicals or X-bows or Atoms or Sevens or Beck 550s.

    Why no 7's or 550s? Both have high production for a kit. And both are based on 50+ year old technology.

    Too small and light for XP.  Or at least that's the impression I was given...  Things change though as members on the various committees change.  So who knows?




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