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Last Post 03 Feb 2015 08:05 PM by  The_Winch
Would you support head/cam swaps in SP?
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SMSupercoupe
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27 Jun 2013 09:00 PM

    Just out of curiosity:

    How many in *SP would be in favor of aftermarket cams?

    How about aftermarket valve springs/retainers?

    How about porting & polishing stock head castings?

    How about aftermarket head castings?

    Obviously, the cost of building a car would go up, so there's one good reason to oppose it. But personally, I'd probably support it, since I think it would be a lot of fun.

    Thoughts? I don't want to write any letters at the moment, but I do want to see what others in SP have to say on the subject. I suspect most of the other ESP guys might like it, but I have no idea about the other SP classes.


    cbramey
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    27 Jun 2013 10:33 PM
    Absolutely. Strokers too. This is not going to help most sp cars today very much for autocross, but will certainly open up better participation and make a better overall car.

    texlbs
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    28 Jun 2013 03:52 AM
    I would support it but limit it to naturally aspirated engines.
    ACM
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    28 Jun 2013 05:43 AM
    I might support porting - if it includes turbos :-) - but none of the rest.

    Modern engines typically are rev limited by valve springs - changing those will uncork a whole new set of expensive problems, and that applies to aftermarket cams as well.. Aftermarket heads exist only for a few motors, so I don't see how that could be reasonable unless any car with aftermarket heads available gets bumped up a class - which would probably happen anyway given the HP increase.

    The only way I can see this being safe/practical/reliable is to change the engine rules to simply "engines are free, but must be based on a stock type block". Otherwise we will fill SP with high dollar fragile motors, and (s)he with the biggest wallet wins, and I don't see that adding anything positive.

    Oh - if heads or cams are free then turbos have to be free as well :-)

    Charles
    Frank05v
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    28 Jun 2013 11:34 AM
    Essentially then you've just created SM and SSM and maybe SMF... So based on this logic, do away with SP and merge the cars into the appropriate SM classes.

    Isn't SP already filled with fairly high dollar fragile motors?
    BigEnos
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    28 Jun 2013 11:51 AM
    Introducing more HP with all else staying the same would just exacerbate the problems we are already faced with. Driveline components, hubs, bushings, bearings, etc, are all wearing fast and/or failing on SP cars. I'd very much prefer durability mods if we are going to introduce more aftermarket parts into the SP universe.

    My unofficial personal opinion, of course.
    ACM
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    28 Jun 2013 12:10 PM
    Posted By BigEnos on 28 Jun 2013 11:51 AM
    Introducing more HP with all else staying the same would just exacerbate the problems we are already faced with. Driveline components, hubs, bushings, bearings, etc, are all wearing fast and/or failing on SP cars. I'd very much prefer durability mods if we are going to introduce more aftermarket parts into the SP universe.

    My unofficial personal opinion, of course.

    100% with you on this.  With the grip we have now everything is breaking constantly already - I would love to see additional allowances to help improve reliability provided the cars don't get significantly faster.  On average I rip at least one front upper A-arm mount out of the car every season.

    The only performance improving allowance I would like to see is a switch from stock-type suspension bushings to allow spherical bearings - I'm sick of having to rebush the whole car every winter :-)

    Charles


    Brigdh
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    28 Jun 2013 12:35 PM

    Eh, no.  At most, I might support polishing, but I think that would be hard to enforce.  I agree, this basically makes SP into SM-lite, which is probably not the best way to go.  SM already has issues with power modifications not being able to be properly supported and breaking things (first tire where you can really fix these things seems to be Prepared), SP would probably be 100 times worse.  Not to mention, SM was specifically created for this stuff.

    One wild card is how do you extend these to rotaries?  Changing cams changes valve timing, which is "port timing" on a rotary.  In order to "change cams" on a rotary, you port it.  Of course, if only cams are allowed on a piston engine, but porting is allowed on a rotary to give it the same effect, then a rotary can port, but a piston engine can't. 

    mlane350z
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    28 Jun 2013 07:36 PM
    Absolutely not.
    ACM
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    29 Jun 2013 12:17 AM
    Absolutely not - what ? There's several dissenting opinions so far - what are you disagreeing with ?

    Charles
    mlane350z
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    29 Jun 2013 08:27 PM
    All things mentioned in the original post.
    mccanixx
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    02 Jul 2013 03:14 PM
    Posted By BigEnos on 28 Jun 2013 11:51 AM
    Introducing more HP with all else staying the same would just exacerbate the problems we are already faced with. Driveline components, hubs, bushings, bearings, etc, are all wearing fast and/or failing on SP cars. I'd very much prefer durability mods if we are going to introduce more aftermarket parts into the SP universe.

    My unofficial personal opinion, of course.

    I would agree to this before long before I would agree to allowing "headwork/replacement" other than is currently allowed.

     

    I'd love to find more power. I'd hate the effects on everything else on my car...(without being able to address them) 

    Ryno
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    03 Jul 2013 12:16 AM

    How about aftermarket valve springs/retainers?

     

     

    Yes Please. 

    StrokerAce
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    03 Jul 2013 08:08 AM
    Do you mean just combining prepapared and street prepared categories?
    BigEnos
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    03 Jul 2013 11:19 AM
    Posted By Ryno on 03 Jul 2013 12:16 AM

    How about aftermarket valve springs/retainers?

     

     

    Yes Please. 

    So titanium retainers and stronger springs. That's a recipe for adding 500rpm to a motor and making more power (potentially). I'm sure you are thinking "stuff that won't break," but everyone else is thinking "now I can make more HP and get more RPM out of the engine!"

    Boxologist
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    03 Jul 2013 07:19 PM
    I want turbos, and forged internals, Sadev transmissions, and cryo treating. But not for anyone else. And if you were ever called an alien you have to drive with a blindfold. And SSSs on duty have to be blindfolded. And I should have T&S be blindfolded for my runs too. And I get to have a negative cone count for my runs. I also can't work or drive 1st heats.
    Ryno
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    04 Jul 2013 12:02 PM
    Posted By BigEnos on 03 Jul 2013 11:19 AM
    Posted By Ryno on 03 Jul 2013 12:16 AM

    How about aftermarket valve springs/retainers?

     

     

    Yes Please. 

    So titanium retainers and stronger springs. That's a recipe for adding 500rpm to a motor and making more power (potentially). I'm sure you are thinking "stuff that won't break," but everyone else is thinking "now I can make more HP and get more RPM out of the engine!"

    True,

    I'm sure I'd turn up the RPM's as well but was thinking reliability. 


    psycko069
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    10 Jul 2013 10:05 AM
    I could agree with springs and retainers. I would love to make the top end of the motor a bit more reliable. As far as everything else mentioned, no. Doing so will bring SP and the respective SM classes even closer together, and open up wallets just a bit more. If anything I would like to see more allowances in suspension......
    Eman911
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    11 Jul 2013 09:43 AM

    I would support all of those recommendations, but only for cars over 30 years old.

    John V
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    14 Jul 2013 08:34 PM
    Posted By SMSupercoupe on 27 Jun 2013 09:00 PM

    Just out of curiosity:

    How many in *SP would be in favor of aftermarket cams?

    How about aftermarket valve springs/retainers?

    How about porting & polishing stock head castings?

    How about aftermarket head castings?

    Obviously, the cost of building a car would go up, so there's one good reason to oppose it. But personally, I'd probably support it, since I think it would be a lot of fun.

    Thoughts? I don't want to write any letters at the moment, but I do want to see what others in SP have to say on the subject. I suspect most of the other ESP guys might like it, but I have no idea about the other SP classes.


    No. If you want to do that stuff, go to Prepared. The perceived cost to enter SP is already too high which discourages participation.

     I'd rather take weight out of the car than essentially be forced to spend more money on a motor.

    TeamRX8
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    16 Jul 2013 12:54 AM
    ^^+1, only if you drop "street" from the category name ...
    HandsomeMike
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    26 Dec 2013 08:38 AM
    My 89 Vette has a Y pipe back exhaust system, lowered stock springs, bigger front and rear sway bar and a shift kit on street tires. It also has upgraded rocker arms and performance valve springs. My car is nowhere near the maximum mods of BSP and the rockers and valve springs put me in SSM. My car is now even less competitive! In BSP I can swap a completely new LT4 engine into my car for about $3,000 giving me an additional 85hp but can't keep my stock engine with better rockers and springs for $350. I consider the rockers and springs bolt ons being as you don't have to open the motor to do it.

    Just thought I'd add some food for thought.
    mlane350z
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    26 Dec 2013 10:48 AM
    Take the rocker and springs back out if it is so easy. Problem solved.
    HandsomeMike
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    26 Dec 2013 02:30 PM
    And have to spend the money to buy stock rockers and springs? No.

    You're missing the point. Swapping an entire engine with 85 more hp is legal but installing a cheap engine mod that is a common "street" modification isn't. The rule doesn't make sense. How is an entire engine swap, to an engine that didn't come in the car, a "street" type mod? I can put an LT4 intake on my engine and port the intake and head ports which is way more internal work than just rockers and springs. Just my opinion and I was adding additional thought to the discussion.
    mlane350z
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    26 Dec 2013 02:43 PM
    Sadly, you're missing the point. What is legal on one motor, has to be legal on all the others. So now, whatever gains you made on your LT1, can be made on an LT4 or any other motor. You can't port the heads...you can port match 1" in, not go through the heads completely. I am against the 1" port match, too, but was in the rules long before I started autox. Also, a cam maybe a relatively inexpensive swap for you, but for those of us with 4 cams, it is not. If cam(s) are allowed, I'll gladly mothball my car and co-drive in another category. With all due respect, you are not going to be competitive in BSP w/o the LT4. Adding a cams won't narrow the gap b/w the motors, since both can do it. I would write in violent opposition to any such proposal.
    HandsomeMike
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    26 Dec 2013 03:10 PM
    By porting I meant match porting, thus my reference to the ports. So if I am not going to be competitive with an L98 or an LT1 and only LT4's will win then why does it make sense to put them in the same class? BSP should only allow C4 Corvette LT4 cars if that's the case. Should there not be a SP class lower than the LT4 car for L98 and LT1? Anyway, agree to disagree. And replacing 4 cams to be competitive is cheaper than replacing your whole engine.
    mlane350z
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    26 Dec 2013 04:17 PM
    Not much cheaper. It is 2k+ to swap cams/valvetrain in a VQ35....takes more time than swapping the motor, too.
    Z3papa
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    26 Dec 2013 07:00 PM
    Mike B -- the reality is not all cars are going to be highly competitive without big modifications once you take into account the UB/BD provisions which puts my car in BSP but allows me to get another 100 hp with an S54 engine at the cost of $5000-7000. Consider the LT4 a cheap option for you.
    drdisque
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    27 Dec 2013 12:07 AM
    It sucks that your car is in a faster class than makes sense and it doesn't make sense that you can do a mod that makes your car faster and simultaneously moves you to a slower class.

    However, it also doesn't make sense to make modifications without regard for the rulebook and then complain that the rulebook doesn't adequately accommodate your modifications.
    mlane350z
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    27 Dec 2013 05:36 AM
    That's the thing, the C4 IS competitive...just with an LT4. SP is not cheap (which is a separate issue) and the $3k for the LT4 is a drop in the bucket in terms of money for a competitive BSP car.
    geezerracer
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    03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
    In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.
    racingfool
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    03 Jan 2014 10:03 AM

    I pretty much like the SP rules as they are.

    I think the bushing rule could be changed.

    A delrin bushing is about as solid as it gets. The amount of metal to non metal doesn't make a difference.

    The urethane and delrin bushing that are available seem to have more metal than stock bushings making them illegal.

    Torino1985
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    05 Jan 2014 06:31 PM
    Posted By geezerracer on 03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
    In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.
    Well what year model are you talking about.   2v 3v or 4v    I run  a Mach 1 SN95 old 4v and will be in ESP next year after the STX/STU change which by the way I am not happy about.    Ridiculous moving the non 5.0 mustangs to STU, why couldn't the low Hp guys stay in STX.   I digress.   On a Mach with long tubes and bolt ons  AKA no intake work they push right between 310 and 315  it adds about  10-15 hp depending on if you have cats or not.   I do not have long tubes and with cats get right at 292 with a very mild tune.  Was over 305 with a super lean tune.   I DD the car so not an option we just wanted to see.     To be honest I do not think anyone in ESP is going to matter in two years unless they class the new mustang in a different class.    I have thought about moving all the way to CP with my Mach 1 b/c I can do all the good stuff(rods, cams, heads, an actual working rear suspension) to it without worrying about throwing a rod and thus 5grand down the tubes.  

    I think the SP rules are pretty good but I do think there are a couple cars that are very limited production that get away with murder b/c they came with forged rods and pistons.   Not sure why those cars were allowed in when it obviously makes them much more tolerant to bigger numbers without much risk to the motor.   But I am young and was not even born when the rules were written so I am just an admirer.          

     

    ST///M
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    08 May 2014 02:04 PM

    4.6L 3v, 2006.  Car is 301/320 on a dyno jet.  I think that's just what they make, we're down on power to almost every ESP car, but opening up these rules would do us no good either.  As others have said, if you can do it to one engine, you have to do it to all and then were back behind after spending more money.  

    Side note, don't be too sad, We tried STX for two years, I'd love to have that two years of my life back.  We went from middle pack locally to a threat for FTD locally and competing for trophy's nationally simply by bolting on a set of 315 Hoosiers over 265 Yokohama Advans.  I highly recommend it, within 2-3 runs you forget what Street Touring even stands for.  

    The_Winch
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    03 Feb 2015 08:05 PM

    Posted By geezerracer on 03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
    In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.

    I got 320 RWHP on a 98 Cobra motor with lots of ESP mods (including long tube headers). You can make a lot more power with some S197 motors, but I'm guessing the minimum weight for those cars would be at least 200 lbs more and I'm not sure they can use all that power.


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