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Last Post 28 Nov 2017 01:06 PM by  mrgonzo
EMod MGB-GT build thread
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loosecannon
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28 Aug 2010 05:50 AM

    Some background: 26 years ago, my dad gave me a low km 5.3 litre Jag V12 to do whatever I wanted with it. Many ideas have been considered, such as a replica 1962 F1 racecar or a Rat Rod but after going to the SCCA Nationals and seeing the crazy crations in E-Mod, I found my project. I am stuffing it into a 1967 MGB-GT using the MGB front suspension and an AE86 rear end with 4 link/panhard. An MGB-GT weighs 2100 lbs as delivered and the V12 and T56 trans weigh approximately 216 lbs more than the MGB engine/trans. With a gutted interior, no glass and extreme attention paid to weight, I'm hoping for a car in the 1850 lb region. The engine makes somewhere between 274 and 312 hp, depending where you look. I know I could make more hp with less weight with an LS1 but there's something really cool about V12's and a British engine in a British car has charm as well.

    SCCAForums Image
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    Front suspension removed
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    Here's the engine and yes, it will fit
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    loosecannon
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    28 Aug 2010 06:26 AM
    Sorry about the picture quality-most are taken with an iphone. In this pic, the arrow on the fender marks the front axle centerline, so you can see that it lines up with the front two cylinders, leaving 10 cylinders BEHIND the front axle-should make for good weight balance ;)
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    The engine is close to the firewall but there is still room to work on it and even take the cam covers off.
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    And there is still plenty of room for pedals inside the car.
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    loosecannon
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    28 Aug 2010 06:29 AM
    custom aluminum bellhousing from a company in Florida that races V12 Jags with T5 or Tremec transmissions. [url]www.5speeds.com[/url]
    SCCAForums Image
    loosecannon
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    28 Aug 2010 06:31 AM

    I built the frame rails and notched them for the front crossmember-an unbelievable amount of work with a grinder and welder. Here's one frame rail right after I sliced it:
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    And after I welded it up and put it in the car:
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    The frame rail extends back and replaces the very rusty box section which forms part of the MGB frame structure.
    SCCAForums Image

    loosecannon
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    28 Aug 2010 06:32 AM
    The frame rails are welded in:
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    lowside67
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    28 Aug 2010 06:39 AM

    Very nice!

    Check this build out: http://www.solobc.com/phpBB3/viewto...0&t=27

    This guy and his partner hold the door slammer records at our BC hillclimb, the Knox Mountain Hillclimb. The car is really a work of art and might serve to give you some ideas for yours.

    Cheers,

    Mark

    amaff
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    28 Aug 2010 08:13 AM
    Really cool build, I look forward to watching this progress :)
    loosecannon
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    29 Aug 2010 07:31 PM

    Added a roll hoop and parallel bars-lots of measuring, bending, cutting, trimming, measuring, notching, measuring, fitting, notching, welding went on-but it looks great.

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    IanF
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    30 Aug 2010 01:34 PM

    Very cool! One question, tho... is there any reason to use the MG front suspension and not a more custom dbl a-arm, coil-over set-up?

    loosecannon
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    30 Aug 2010 03:41 PM
    IanF wrote:

    Very cool! One question, tho... is there any reason to use the MG front suspension and not a more custom dbl a-arm, coil-over set-up?

    Funny you should ask that. I had another double a-arm suspension all ready to go but an experienced racer and Mod builder pointed out that the brakes were too big to fit inside the desireable 13" wheels and that the MGB suspension is actually pretty good once the necessary changes are made. What are those changes? The lever shocks and upper control arms are ditched for coilovers and adjustable arms. It looks antiquated now but once I start on the front suspension, it will look more racey.

    amaff
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    30 Aug 2010 08:05 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    IanF wrote:

    Very cool! One question, tho... is there any reason to use the MG front suspension and not a more custom dbl a-arm, coil-over set-up?

    I had another double a-arm suspension all ready to go but an experienced racer and Mod builder pointed out that the brakes were too big to fit inside the desireable 13" wheels

    It's a Mod car... put smaller brakes on it.

    loosecannon
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    31 Aug 2010 11:25 AM

    Ran into my first big hurdle, the exhaust exits right onto the frame rail. There's plenty of room for headers so I'm not worried, it just there's one more big project before I can start the car.
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    loosecannon
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    01 Sep 2010 11:51 AM
    I decided to move the engine back another 6" so now I don't have to move the steering rack, the stock exhaust will work and the upper tubes going to the front frame are straight and at a decent angle, making it much stronger. So now the whole engine (except the crank pulley) is behind the front axle.
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    loosecannon
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    01 Sep 2010 09:07 PM
    I welded the top bars in but there's still a suprising amount of flex in the front end-I put a big bar on the front and tried to twist it-it flexed a little more than I like so more tubes will need to be welded in.
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    I notched the front crossmember in order to drop the motor as far as possible:
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    loosecannon
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    02 Sep 2010 10:18 AM

    Sometimes it's easier to cut away all the old stuff and start fresh, thank goodness for plasma cutters ;)

    SCCAForums Image
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    The pile of metal I cut out today
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    loosecannon
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    03 Sep 2010 04:39 PM
    Driving to SCCA Nationals this weekend so today I put in extra effort to get things done on the MGB. I got the rear supports, diagonal brace and rear suspension mounting points done. Look carefully and you see that I have an extra wide transmission tunnel to allow the driveshaft and dual exhaust to pass through to the back, allowing for a flat floor:
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    And some braces on the front:
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    And put the engine, trans and racing seat in to get an idea of how it will all work. The seat will actually be more upright and the tranny moved forward an inch from what you see in the picture. The shifter will be in a pretty good position:
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    IanF
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    04 Sep 2010 09:11 PM
    Good job on progress! Of course, now I'm cursing you a bit... as this thread gives me delusional ideas of what to do with the crusty 1800ES in my back yard. So I'm now off to go dig through the E Mod rules...
    loosecannon
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    05 Sep 2010 06:05 PM

    IanF wrote:
    Good job on progress! Of course, now I'm cursing you a bit... as this thread gives me delusional ideas of what to do with the crusty 1800ES in my back yard. So I'm now off to go dig through the E Mod rules...

    Honestly, I am enjoying the build so much that I didn't even think about competing at Nats this year. The rules are pretty open so it comes down to: creativity+fabrication skills X $$$ and in my case, 2 out of 3 ain't bad ;) The car doesn't even need to be the quickest, it just needs to look cool and sound awesome.

    wahoo5
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    12 Sep 2010 09:11 PM

    What an amazing project. Hope you have it at Nats next year. No one could ever accuse you of choosing an easy class given Keisel's green Sprite kicking everyone's butt in EM.

    My son and I enjoyed talking to you and your wife at the test and tune. We were driving the black STX MINI JCW.

    David

    loosecannon
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    13 Sep 2010 07:29 AM
    wahoo5 wrote:

    What an amazing project. Hope you have it at Nats next year. No one could ever accuse you of choosing an easy class given Keisel's green Sprite kicking everyone's butt in EM.

    My son and I enjoyed talking to you and your wife at the test and tune. We were driving the black STX MINI JCW.

    David

    Thanks :) My wife missed the CSL championship by .001 seconds so she's all hyped up to run the Boxster again next year, so my EMod plans may be on hold until 2012.

    tsdracing78
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    13 Sep 2010 06:09 PM

    at the risk of sounding geeky this car already looks sexy as hell please keep posting looks great

    loosecannon
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    14 Sep 2010 06:20 PM

    Got the 4 link rear suspension welded in, these pics were taken before I welded in reinforcement bars. I don't have an axle yet so some exhaust tube stands in it's place:
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    Don't know why it hangs so low but as per the directions, the bars are level and can be adjusted up or down based on what I want the car to do:
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    Transmission crossmember is in and had to be notched to make the trans level:
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    Dash bar:
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    Top cross bar is in:
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    I mocked up the pedal location and now that I moved the engine back so far, I ran out of room. I have already started making a pedal box that lowers the pedals 4 inches and gives me some room, I'll get picks of that when it's done:
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    gavin
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    14 Sep 2010 07:36 PM

    the question is ......can you make that V12 sound like this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9I7GWllPFY

    Gavin

    loosecannon
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    14 Sep 2010 08:48 PM
    gavin wrote:

    the question is ......can you make that V12 sound like this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9I7GWllPFY

    Gavin

    I've had the engine running and I think it actually sounds meaner than that. I will be putting headers on it and expect it to really howl ;)

    loosecannon
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    15 Sep 2010 04:14 PM
    The floor framework before the sheet metal is attached (3/4" super thin wall square tube):
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    The dropped pedal box:
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    With the drivers side sheet metal in:
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    The pedal box is still tight (no room for dead pedal) but at least it's useable now.
    loosecannon
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    16 Sep 2010 04:05 PM
    I didn't like the location of the shifter so I came up with this solution. I wasn't sure it was going to work but it actually works awesome :)
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    Passenger floor is in:
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    loosecannon
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    17 Sep 2010 06:41 PM
    Too busy to do any work on the car but ONE of my front shocks arrived. It's an Ohlins sportbike rear shock and has high/low speed compression, rebound, pre-load and height settings. If you look at the linkage that was included(attached to the bottom of the shock in the picture) it actually bolts onto the top of the shock as well and my plan is to use it as a rocker arm for a pushrod front suspension.
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    loosecannon
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    20 Sep 2010 12:38 PM
    I wanted to get an idea of the weight of the car so I put everything I had on it in approximately the position it would be in and put simulated weight on it for the parts I don't have yet. The bad news is that it's too heavy by 188 lbs but the good news is that the weight balance is 54% Front, 46% Rear. I can still cut a bunch of weight out of the hood/fenders/doors/interior and crossmember plus the cast iron exhaust manifolds are heavier than the headers but it looks like the car will be a little heavy. I'll be going at it with a hole saw and plasma cutter this week.
    dglong
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    20 Sep 2010 01:49 PM

    Welcome to E Mod. I'm pretty sure it will be the first V12 in the class.

    Del Long

    47CP
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    20 Sep 2010 02:39 PM

    You are only going to be #188lbs over including the driver? That is very impressive. BTW, I don't have an exact number but there ended up being #75 of misc fasteners in my car (rivets, bolts, tabs, hidden illegal modifications, etc)

    This thing is bad ass. Welcome to the class and I can't wait to see it.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    20 Sep 2010 03:22 PM
    47CP wrote:

    You are only going to be #188lbs over including the driver? That is very impressive. BTW, I don't have an exact number but there ended up being #75 of misc fasteners in my car (rivets, bolts, tabs, hidden illegal modifications, etc)

    This thing is bad ass. Welcome to the class and I can't wait to see it.

    DaveW

    Thanks for the welcome Del and Dave :) Yeh, the car is currently just over the class minumum (1863 lbs) without me in it. It's encouraging that you got that much weight out of your car with little stuff. I have lots and lots of places I can shave weight off. I will be swiss cheesing the crossmember, parts of the frame and inner body panels, cutting out the inner door structure and trimming the fender and hood structures. I'll be happy if I keep it below 1950 lbs with me in it. The V12 should move it along smartly and sound like nothing else at Nats

    loosecannon
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    21 Sep 2010 03:46 PM
    Spent today cutting metal out of some places and welding metal into other places. Note the side frame rails:
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    And the rear frame rails:
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    And I welded in these brackets from the A pillar to the roll cage:
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    loosecannon
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    23 Sep 2010 04:17 PM

    More time spent with the plasma cutter. I am saving all pieces cut out and all this work has only resulted in (estimated) 25 lbs cut out :(
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    The stock front suspension:
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    And the start of the new suspension. I still need to sort out the shock location and have several different upper mounts which alter camber gain. This is the taller mount which has zero camber gain:
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    47CP
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    23 Sep 2010 06:47 PM

    How much angle is on those upper arms? It looks like very little and speaking from expensive experience, you should not underestimate the loads here. You really want/need the arms as wide as possible that still allows you to turn the wheels (assuming the ball joints are inside the wheels). The stock arm has a pretty strong "H" section that you appear to have not recreated.

    DaveW

    [broken upper and lower arms on my suspension designs]

    loosecannon
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    23 Sep 2010 07:46 PM
    47CP wrote:

    How much angle is on those upper arms? It looks like very little and speaking from expensive experience, you should not underestimate the loads here. You really want/need the arms as wide as possible that still allows you to turn the wheels (assuming the ball joints are inside the wheels). The stock arm has a pretty strong "H" section that you appear to have not recreated.

    DaveW

    [broken upper and lower arms on my suspension designs]

    The top arms are actually farther apart than the stock ones and I haven't added the brace yet because I haven't sorted the pushrod for the shock yet and don't want to weld something in just to cut it out later. I am thinking about widening the top arms to make more room for the shock and pushrod but I run smack into the tube that goes from the roll cage down to the frame.

    loosecannon
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    24 Sep 2010 11:01 AM

    I widened the top arm mounting points by 3" over the factory width to give the suspension more stability, and lowered them to increase camber gain. Now I have approximately .9 degrees for every inch of wheel travel. I still have to change the pushrod to an adjustable rod with heim joints and have to add a brace to the top arms.
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    loosecannon
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    24 Sep 2010 03:21 PM
    Suspension update: I jacked up the suspension to see how the shock compresses and it didn't budge. I thought maybe the pivot was binding but that wasn't a problem. I had assumed the pivot had a 1:1 ratio (1 inch of suspension travel equaled 1 inch of shock compression) but I was wrong. I measured the rocker mechanism(the aluminum triangle thingy) and it was 3.25" from the pivot to the pushrod and 4" from the pivot to the shock. I flipped it around and problem solved, the suspension moves very nicely and compresses the shock as it should. You gotta love the complexities of suspension ;)
    47CP
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    24 Sep 2010 06:48 PM

    I am no ME,but that upper arm is giving me headaches. Your loads won't be as high as they were in my CP car, but I have a stack of failed upper arm designs from some similiar issues that you are creating.

    The attachment from the upper ball joint/king pin to the arms is putting load on things in all the wrong ways. Is there a way to adapt a C shaped mount to the splindle, allowing you to rotate the rod ends horizontally? Perhaps a stock car style shock mount would work. This would remove the load from the bolt shafts as it is now and also load the rod end properly (not that a lot of rod ends aren't loaded the same way). This would also allow the arms to go out wider in the back becuase IMO you do not have enough triangulation angle.

    Looks great and great progress. Rocker arms really help with packaging.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    24 Sep 2010 08:50 PM
    47CP wrote:

    I am no ME,but that upper arm is giving me headaches. Your loads won't be as high as they were in my CP car, but I have a stack of failed upper arm designs from some similiar issues that you are creating.

    The attachment from the upper ball joint/king pin to the arms is putting load on things in all the wrong ways. Is there a way to adapt a C shaped mount to the splindle, allowing you to rotate the rod ends horizontally? Perhaps a stock car style shock mount would work. This would remove the load from the bolt shafts as it is now and also load the rod end properly (not that a lot of rod ends aren't loaded the same way). This would also allow the arms to go out wider in the back becuase IMO you do not have enough triangulation angle.

    Looks great and great progress. Rocker arms really help with packaging.

    DaveW

    I think I understand what you're saying but I don't see how what I've done is different than the stock MGB suspension. Take a look at the pic of the stock suspension, a bolt goes through the upper and lower kingpin and the arms rotate on them. I have copied all that except am using a longer bolt to allow the heim joints to attach and now the rotation occurs in the heim joint instead of the kingpin bushing. What do you think is going to fail? Keep in mind that I still have to add an X brace to the upper arms.

    47CP
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    25 Sep 2010 04:20 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    47CP wrote:

    I am no ME,but that upper arm is giving me headaches. Your loads won't be as high as they were in my CP car, but I have a stack of failed upper arm designs from some similar issues that you are creating.

    The attachment from the upper ball joint/king pin to the arms is putting load on things in all the wrong ways. Is there a way to adapt a C shaped mount to the spindle, allowing you to rotate the rod ends horizontally? Perhaps a stock car style shock mount would work. This would remove the load from the bolt shafts as it is now and also load the rod end properly (not that a lot of rod ends aren't loaded the same way). This would also allow the arms to go out wider in the back because IMO you do not have enough triangulation angle.

    Looks great and great progress. Rocker arms really help with packaging.

    DaveW

    I think I understand what you're saying but I don't see how what I've done is different than the stock MGB suspension. Take a look at the pic of the stock suspension, a bolt goes through the upper and lower kingpin and the arms rotate on them. I have copied all that except am using a longer bolt to allow the heim joints to attach and now the rotation occurs in the heim joint instead of the kingpin bushing. What do you think is going to fail? Keep in mind that I still have to add an X brace to the upper arms.

    The stock arm appears to be a pretty strong forging/casting that would put a lot of load on that center brace under braking. EG, under braking the entire upper arm will try to rotate and pull against the frame mounts, in a path mostly perpendicular to the direction of travel.

    You won't be able to replicate that strength in that same direction with your arms, so you need more triangulation, IMO.

    I barely see enough room for an x-brace in there, but after you install that, I see the gold arms themselves failing and bending in two. The large bolt through the balljoint/kingpin may be large enough to overcome it, but I also see weakness in this area as you are now pushing on it at an angle instead of straight. Finally, the angle load on the heims is trying to push the ball out of the body, which could cause a failure but will more likely just cause accelerated wear.

    Copying stock may not be good enough, and I don't think you built something as strong as stock. It was designed for a 13x4.5 bias tire and drum brakes presumably and you are going to put 10" wide slicks and 4 piston disk brakes. You are building a car capable of 1.5g lateral acceleration and 1.3+ in braking.

    I hope this comes across as helpful, it is certainly intended to. I am not picking on you, just giving my opinions. I have built 3 suspensions and have learned some stuff the hard way and one of those lessons is never underestimate the loads put into the upper a-arm in autocrossing.

    HTH, IMO, YMMV,

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    25 Sep 2010 04:24 AM
    Thanks Dave, I was planning on making some changes to the pivot and will take a serious look at the way the tie rods are mounted. If I flip the ones by the spindle, I could get more triangulation,
    loosecannon
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    27 Sep 2010 09:18 PM

    Notice anything different about the front suspension? That's right, it's all different. I solved a lot of issues by taking a complete Jag front crossmember, chopping 8" out of the middle and adapting the pushrod suspension and MGB steering rack to it.
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    The car is sitting at it's ride height and everything fits under the hood:
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    loosecannon
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    28 Sep 2010 06:55 PM

    Today I spent hours grinding off old brackets from the Jag crossmember and smoothing out the plasma cut holes, I turned a 5" grinding disc into a 2.5" grinding disc and my arm looks like I have poison ivy from all the hot sparks. I didn't take pics because it would be hard to see what I did.

    loosecannon
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    29 Sep 2010 11:39 AM

    Decided to see how wide I could go with tires. Here it is with 15" wide tires in the back and 11" wide tires in front:
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    loosecannon
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    29 Sep 2010 04:49 PM

    Update: I weighed the metal I have removed since weighing the whole car and I have shaved 74 lbs off it, including 43 lbs(!) of exhaust manifolds. I also tubbed the car in order to fit huge tires:

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    loosecannon
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    01 Oct 2010 10:35 AM

    Both rear wheel tubs are done:
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    And filled in some gaps between the floor and body. I made templates from paper then transfered to metal and plasma cut them:
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    A picture of me with the car at it's ride height so you get a sense of scale:
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    loosecannon
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    04 Oct 2010 04:03 PM
    Cut out the drivers side door inner structure and fabricated removeable door bars. The bars are not required for auto-x but are for road racing so I made them removeable.
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    loosecannon
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    05 Oct 2010 03:32 PM

    Put in a passenger side door bar in and put a reinforcing piece of metal across the top of the door to stiffen it up a little.
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    loosecannon
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    06 Oct 2010 02:46 PM

    Got the steering column and rack and pinion installed today. The stats are: 2.5 turns lock to lock, .9 degrees camber gain per inch of travel, no discernible bump steer and the 23.5X13-15 Hoosiers I just bought on EBay will fit on the front and the back.
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    loosecannon
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    12 Oct 2010 04:24 PM

    Filled in some gaps between the new stuff and old stuff:
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    Mounted the fuel cell low enough to keep CG down but high enough to put a diffuser below it:
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    And have the rear pushrod suspension half done, I just have to make a mount for the top (back) of the shock:
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    loosecannon
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    13 Oct 2010 04:26 PM

    My 13" wide Hoosier slicks arrived today, looks like they will fit so I ordered 13" wide wheels (with 8" backspacing!) to mount them on:

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    I repositioned the front shocks to get a better angle for the pushrod and it all seems to work great. With the shocks on their medium spring position the car hardly moves when I jump on it and on the softest setting it moves up and down an inch or two.

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    Proving that those fat tires will still turn and clear everything, although the front fenders will need some serious re-arching to make the turns. I will most likely run narrower tires but I wanted to build the car for the widest tire possible because it's then easy to get narrower tires on there:

    SCCAForums Image

    47CP
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    13 Oct 2010 04:38 PM

    Looks great.

    A few observations, take them for what you paid...

    1) I am not familiar with the 13" diameter slicks, but in general, you want to leave a lot of room for them to move around on the wheel on the inside. Our 27x14x16 rears, which will hold the car up without air (e.g. stiff sidewalls) move on the plus side of an inch. Various other versions of various tires have moved much more than that, the worst on 2 plus inches. I bring all this up because your rockers look kind of close to the tires.

    2) You probably don't need that much steering angle, though it won't hurt anything. On the new car with the 10" backspace 12" wide wheel there is just over 20 degrees each way, barely enough to get a caster sweep. The CP car had a little more, but not more than 25. It is a little pit of a pain in grid, but overall this isn't a problem on course unless you run some really small lots at home.

    IMO, YMMV, etc.,

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    13 Oct 2010 07:54 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Looks great.

    A few observations, take them for what you paid...

    1) I am not familiar with the 13" diameter slicks, but in general, you want to leave a lot of room for them to move around on the wheel on the inside. Our 27x14x16 rears, which will hold the car up without air (e.g. stiff sidewalls) move on the plus side of an inch. Various other versions of various tires have moved much more than that, the worst on 2 plus inches. I bring all this up because your rockers look kind of close to the tires.

    2) You probably don't need that much steering angle, though it won't hurt anything. On the new car with the 10" backspace 12" wide wheel there is just over 20 degrees each way, barely enough to get a caster sweep. The CP car had a little more, but not more than 25. It is a little pit of a pain in grid, but overall this isn't a problem on course unless you run some really small lots at home.

    IMO, YMMV, etc.,

    DaveW

    Your observations are spot on. I didn't realize that slicks move around so much so I drove back to the shop to double check. Pulling the tire out a little gets me the clearance to the pivot plus I get more steering angle. The tires are 23.5x13x15 and I suspect I will be running them only on the back and getting the 23x9.5x15 for the front.

    amaff
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    14 Oct 2010 07:06 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

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    And I need a new pair of shorts... holy crap those 13" slicks look huge on a car that small [:O]

    JBrettHowell
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    14 Oct 2010 09:31 AM

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    Hawt!

    cmt52663
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    14 Oct 2010 09:33 AM

    impressive paws.

    I wonder what the factor is that gets one from the original designer's load assumptions, to the capabilities of this version?

    At least 2x, perhaps a bit more?

    Less mass, but way way more traction.

    loosecannon
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    14 Oct 2010 10:27 AM
    Thanks guys :) I changed my wheel order so they will have 7" of backspacing and with that I will have 26 degrees of turning. If I find that is not enough on our landing strip courses, I can add a wheel spacer and get 31 degrees of turn. Working on rear shock mounts and pushrods now, pics up later.
    loosecannon
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    14 Oct 2010 04:40 PM
    Had a little drama with the back suspension today. At first I used a simple tube going from the front fuel cell mount to the back one and attached the shock to that. This was fine on the drivers side but the passenger side shock had to have the resevoir on the bottom, which then interfered with the tube. I cut all that work out and built the U-shaped pieces you see in the picture. They worked fine until I put the weight of the car on the suspension, which promptly bent the pieces down and twisted the rear fuel cell mount as well. I straightened all that out and welded in gussets and when I put the car on the suspension, it nearly bottomed out the shocks. This is strange considering that the same shocks when mounted on the front of the car (the heavier end) were perfect. I flipped the triangle shaped pivot around to reduce the mechanical advantage of the pushrod and now the rear suspension bounces exactly as much as the front suspension, which I think means I'm on the right track.
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    47CP
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    14 Oct 2010 05:27 PM

    More unsolicited opinions....

    I am not real comfortable with that rearr shock mount on the frame side. The forced is going straight back into the U shaped pieces which goes into the cell mount, but there is nothing triangulated in that direction whatsoever (that I can see). Basically, the force is going into the plane at the level of the top of the cell, straight forward and back and there is nothing but a couple of shirt 1x1 down tubes resisting that.

    I am not sure how to fix it, but I think some triangulation needs to be done. Also, if you strengthen it in that plane, that back crossmember for the cell may not be strong enough, depending on the wall thckness of that tube.

    All IMO, trying to be helpful, etc. :)

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    14 Oct 2010 06:41 PM
    47CP wrote:

    More unsolicited opinions....

    I am not real comfortable with that rearr shock mount on the frame side. The forced is going straight back into the U shaped pieces which goes into the cell mount, but there is nothing triangulated in that direction whatsoever (that I can see). Basically, the force is going into the plane at the level of the top of the cell, straight forward and back and there is nothing but a couple of shirt 1x1 down tubes resisting that.

    I am not sure how to fix it, but I think some triangulation needs to be done. Also, if you strengthen it in that plane, that back crossmember for the cell may not be strong enough, depending on the wall thckness of that tube.

    All IMO, trying to be helpful, etc. :)

    DaveW

    You are being helpful :) I was not finished with the bracing. After the earlier fiasco with the bent shock mounts, I had decided to better brace the front and rear mounts, I'll be beefing those areas up significantly. What size bolts do you think I need to fasten the pushrods? M10? M12?

    47CP
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    15 Oct 2010 05:53 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    47CP wrote:

    More unsolicited opinions....

    I am not real comfortable with that rearr shock mount on the frame side. The forced is going straight back into the U shaped pieces which goes into the cell mount, but there is nothing triangulated in that direction whatsoever (that I can see). Basically, the force is going into the plane at the level of the top of the cell, straight forward and back and there is nothing but a couple of shirt 1x1 down tubes resisting that.

    I am not sure how to fix it, but I think some triangulation needs to be done. Also, if you strengthen it in that plane, that back crossmember for the cell may not be strong enough, depending on the wall thckness of that tube.

    All IMO, trying to be helpful, etc. :)

    DaveW

    You are being helpful :) I was not finished with the bracing. After the earlier fiasco with the bent shock mounts, I had decided to better brace the front and rear mounts, I'll be beefing those areas up significantly. What size bolts do you think I need to fasten the pushrods? M10? M12?

    Fasten the pushrods to what? The axle? If it is double shear, I would think the M10 would be plenty. If some sort of single shear, M12. Anything shock related on my car is 1/2", which is pretty standard stock car size down here.

    HTH,

    DaveW

    Dave Hardy
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    15 Oct 2010 06:27 AM
    What about something like this. Crossmember between the two main rails that is braced longitudinally to the rear of the main rails and vertically to the down tubes. Suspension loads go more directly to the main structure. It would mean that the fuel cell couldn't drop in from above, but it could probably be mounted in the same place, just bolted in from below.
    loosecannon
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    15 Oct 2010 10:49 AM

    DILYSI Dave wrote:
    What about something like this. Crossmember between the two main rails that is braced longitudinally to the rear of the main rails and vertically to the down tubes. Suspension loads go more directly to the main structure. It would mean that the fuel cell couldn't drop in from above, but it could probably be mounted in the same place, just bolted in from below.

    That looks good. I cut the 1x1 square tube out of the back today and am going to weld 2x2 in it's place, and put some gussets in, too. I'm working on the drivers side header right now and it's really, really time consuming.

    loosecannon
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    15 Oct 2010 07:20 PM

    I went in at 8:00 this morning to get some work done on the car before we opened for business and built the drivers side header. It was very, very difficult to get all the tubes in there and pointed in the right direction and the collector was right up against where the firewall needed to be. The pic is after I tack welded it but before I pulled it out for final welding. I welded as much as possible while still on the car then pulled it off to weld the back side, that's when the trouble started. There were a bunch of spots where I couldn't get the welding gun in at the right angle or close enough, resulting in welds I am ashamed of. Then, when I went to put it back on the car, some of the flanges had shifted and there was no way to get them lined up again-a lot of time and money out the window. That's the bad news, the good news is that, from what I read, this engine doesn't benefit much from headers.
    SCCAForums Image

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    I also re-did the rear shock mount, it's now far stronger and weighs less than the previous version. I'm pretty excited that when I put the spring on it's stiffest setting, the car hardly moves when I bounce up and down on it, and on the softest setting it bounces pretty good-I think these bike shocks are going to work:
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    47CP
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    16 Oct 2010 07:54 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

    I went in at 8:00 this morning to get some work done on the car before we opened for business and built the drivers side header. It was very, very difficult to get all the tubes in there and pointed in the right direction and the collector was right up against where the firewall needed to be. The pic is after I tack welded it but before I pulled it out for final welding. I welded as much as possible while still on the car then pulled it off to weld the back side, that's when the trouble started. There were a bunch of spots where I couldn't get the welding gun in at the right angle or close enough, resulting in welds I am ashamed of. Then, when I went to put it back on the car, some of the flanges had shifted and there was no way to get them lined up again-a lot of time and money out the window. That's the bad news, the good news is that, from what I read, this engine doesn't benefit much from headers.

    Headers are a bitch. I cheated and used two sets of stock car headers, one configuration of a chassis header for one side and an adjustable late model deal for the other. I just had to shorten the chassis one and that was still a bitch.

    So, did you give up on the headers and go back to the manifolds? That might be a good idea for now just to get the car on the road/track. It might cost some power and weight, but what is the difference between being able to spin the tires continuously from one turn to the next with 1/2 throttle or 3/4 throttle? :)

    [quote]

    I also re-did the rear shock mount, it's now far stronger and weighs less than the previous version. I'm pretty excited that when I put the spring on it's stiffest setting, the car hardly moves when I bounce up and down on it, and on the softest setting it bounces pretty good-I think these bike shocks are going to work:

    This looks much stronger and I think will work fine.

    Looking great. You are putting my three year build pace to absolute shame. :(

    DaveW

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    16 Oct 2010 02:38 PM
    Looks very nice! Any more info on the bike shocks? Spring rate? Travel? Rocker Ratio? I'm quite intrigued.
    loosecannon
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    16 Oct 2010 03:43 PM
    47CP wrote:

    So, did you give up on the headers and go back to the manifolds? That might be a good idea for now just to get the car on the road/track. It might cost some power and weight, but what is the difference between being able to spin the tires continuously from one turn to the next with 1/2 throttle or 3/4 throttle? :) DaveW

    Yup, going back to stock exhaust, which is fine because I had serious concerns about melting my shoes to the firewall with the headers so close. There's a lot more power to be gained by changing cams and valve springs.

    loosecannon
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    16 Oct 2010 03:47 PM

    DILYSI Dave wrote:
    Looks very nice! Any more info on the bike shocks? Spring rate? Travel? Rocker Ratio? I'm quite intrigued.

    Shocks are Ohlins off the back of a Yamaha R1 sportbike. Spring rate is 525 lb/inch, travel is about 3 inches at the shock but more when the pivot is factored in. Yamaha lists shock travel as 5.1 inches but that must be the wheel travel. Don't know the ratio but from the pivot to the bolt on one side is 4 inches and from the pivot to the other side is 3.25 inches.

    loosecannon
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    19 Oct 2010 01:13 PM

    I worked on the brackets holding up the front fenders and supension, and I weighed the car again. The bad news is that it weighs 1800 lbs without wheels/tires/radiator but the good news is that the weight balance is 46% Front, 54% Rear and will probably be perfect once I add the weight of the rad and fluid up front.

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    loosecannon
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    20 Oct 2010 05:08 PM
    I'll admit it, staring at where a firewall should be, I am intimidated by how complex the thing is going to have to be. I decided to start at the back and work my way forward, so here is the transmission tunnel, done without a metal bending tool:
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    47CP
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    20 Oct 2010 06:00 PM

    You aren't going to do all of that in steel, are you? And you are gonna need a brake soon. :)

    The footbox area was an absolute bear on my car and took about 3 full weekends to figure out.

    Here it is 90% complete:

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    20 Oct 2010 07:00 PM
    47CP wrote:

    You aren't going to do all of that in steel, are you? And you are gonna need a brake soon. :)

    The footbox area was an absolute bear on my car and took about 3 full weekends to figure out.

    Here it is 90% complete:

    DaveW

    Wow, that is almost a dead ringer for my pedalbox. I don't have any way to weld aluminum but I guess I could rivet aluminum panels together. I am comfortable with steel so will probably go with that, despite the weight penalty. My MIG has a kit that can convert it to weld aluminum but the guys at Welders Supply said that if anybody is going to see the welds, I better not because they will be ugly.

    47CP
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    21 Oct 2010 05:56 AM

    I would highly recommend aluminum. It is lighter and easier to work with. You can get a cheap brake at Harbor Freight (I think mine was $200) and a hydraulic pop rivet gun for $50. You just rivet it all together and it is plenty strong and easy to change or remove later if needed. I don't have better pics handly, but the entire interior of my car is riveted aluminum with only the slightest steel frame in a few key places. No aluminum welding.

    An .040 or .035 aluminum panel of reasonble size with a 90 degree bend on one edge is pretty strong.

    IMO, you will be adding a bunch of weight with steel.

    DaveW

    Bullitt2954
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    21 Oct 2010 11:56 AM
    47CP wrote:
    An .040 or .035 aluminum panel of reasonble size with a 90 degree bend on one edge is pretty strong.

    IMO, you will be adding a bunch of weight with steel.

    DaveW

    IIRC the equivalent gauge in aluminium weighs about 1/3 that of steel. It's only about 1/3 as strong - but for this particular application, I would think them shiny-silver-panels would be PLENTY strong enough.

    47CP
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    21 Oct 2010 12:09 PM

    Here are some more pictures of my footbox.

    There were all taken before I disassembled the whole car and painted the frame so nothing is riveted together. On final assembly, I riveted all that stuff together and it is plenty strong. The trick is always joining one panel to another with a 3/4" (19mm :)) "flap" that is bent 90 degrees and rivets to the next panel.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    21 Oct 2010 12:22 PM
    That looks fantastic. We don't have Harbour Freights in Canada but I'll see if I can track down a brake. I'm not comfortable working with aluminum, though.
    loosecannon
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    21 Oct 2010 08:19 PM

    Built seat and seatbelt mounts today. I was planning on putting in a harnass guide bar and attaching the belts to the rear frame rails but looking at the instructions included with the belts, I noticed that I could wrap them around the guide bar. So, I decided to build the bar out of rollbar tube and make it look nice:
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    loosecannon
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    22 Oct 2010 07:53 PM

    I found a Ford 9" rear end on e-bay that was the right width, the problem was that it was built for a 2000 hp dragster. Here it is with ladder bar and wheelie bar mounts, I'm pretty sure I won't be needing those ;)
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    I sliced off all the mounts I didn't need, welded on the ones I did and cut holes in the braces to lighten things up a little.
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    Here are the 4 piston aluminum calipers that came with the rear end, you can see the trick rotors on the left in the first pic:
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    Here it is in the car. I shortened the bars to get to the MGB stock wheelbase of 91" so now I will have even more weight on the back tires than the 54% I had earlier:
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    And from the side:
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    vinax
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    22 Oct 2010 09:31 PM

    Amazing craftsmanship.... I wish I had your fabrication skills.

    Car weighs 1800lbs already? It must have contracted STEELITIS


    loosecannon
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    22 Oct 2010 09:39 PM
    vinax wrote:

    Amazing craftsmanship.... I wish I had your fabrication skills.

    Car weighs 1800lbs already? It must have contracted STEELITIS


    Thanks :) I could have made the car lighter by going with smaller brakes, smaller rollbar tubing and lighter engine but I didn't want it to be a one trick pony. I want to participate in solosprint, lapping days and maybe even a hillclimb and I needed more robust and heavier parts. I'm sure I could be at the class minimum by swapping engines but for now I'm going to have some fun with the V12.

    Bullitt2954
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    24 Oct 2010 03:37 PM

    loosecannon wrote:
    I sliced off all the mounts I didn't need, welded on the ones I did and cut holes in the braces to lighten things up a little.
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    Your new nickname is now officially "Swiss".........

    loosecannon
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    24 Oct 2010 06:31 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:
    I sliced off all the mounts I didn't need, welded on the ones I did and cut holes in the braces to lighten things up a little.
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    Your new nickname is now officially "Swiss".........

    We were going to paint it orange and call it "Orange Krush" but maybe "Swiss Cheese" would be better? ;)

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    25 Oct 2010 05:29 PM

    Ok, LOTS to report today. After Friday's big grindfest and weldathon, I had the weekend to ponder my work. It was bugging me that I left the rear differential brace on and that the 4 link suspension would bind when articulating. Then, the guys on the D/EMod Yahoo group pointed out that my 4" of ground clearance was double what I should be running. I decided to first drop the car to 2" of ground clearance then see where everything landed up. Here is the crossmember with 2 1/2" clearance:
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    And the pedalbox in the foreground and oilpan in the background with 2" of clearance:
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    And finally, I spent 7 hours grinding off and re-welding the work I had spent 7 hours doing on Friday. I removed the brace (losing several lbs unsprung weight) and changed the 4 link/panhard suspension to a triangulated 4 link (with no panhard, also unsprung weight). It now articulates nicely and doesn't move side to side at all.
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    From the side, notice that I removed the bottom hole from the front mount because with the lowering of the car, I no longer used it:
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    loosecannon
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    26 Oct 2010 03:50 PM

    Some of my unpainted parts are starting to rust so much of my time was spent with a spray bomb today. I did re-make the pushrods so they have nuts for adjusting and the rear ones I made longer so they don't change the angle as the suspension moves up and down. Rear pushrod:

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    Front pushrod:
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    47CP
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    27 Oct 2010 06:51 AM

    Your pace of work is shaming me for how long my car took.....looking great!

    A few comments - take them for what you paid.

    The 2 inch ground clearance is only going to work if you never have any type of a flat bottom or splitter at that height. I haven't closed it in yet, but the bottom of my car is competely flat, from edge to edge and from rear axle to splitter and 3 inch ground clearance is about as low as it will go. Any lower and it won't go on the trailer (I use about 18 feet of ramping to get a 4 degree apparach angle), won't go on the 2.5" high scales at Tours, won't go over minor bumps and etc at event sites. I don't think you will have a problem with your car at 2 inches, just letting you know in case you add a splitter and play with flat bottom aero.

    I don't know much about straight 4 link rear ends, but a little about converging upper 4 link rear ends from my Mustang days. It seems like the only way to fix the converging one is to remove it, so I am curious why you added one? How do you locate your rear roll center on that? Or the instant center? On Mustangs, it was extremely high, like 15 inches or something, which could lead to a very high roll couple, or if both roll centers are too close to the CG, problems with weight transfer. How do you deal with bind in roll? Granted, your working travel is pretty short (can't compress more than 2 inches) but in the Mustang world, stiffening the bushings made it much, much worse than stock. Trust me, I have no knowledge of this type of suspension besides the OEM Mustang setup, which is pretty far from what you have, so I am not second guessing, just wondering.

    Finally, make sure you have enough adjustment on your trailing arms to always be higher on the chassis side than the axle, at ride height. This is extremely important on 3 link setups, I would assume it would carry over to 4 link and would be really important with the shirt links on your car. It looks like you are OK, but is hard to tell from pictures. I ended up switching to a sliding type mount on one end on all my setups as well, finding that the 3/4" or 1" spacing on the holes was too course of an adjustment.

    IMO, hope it helps, etc,

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    27 Oct 2010 12:36 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Your pace of work is shaming me for how long my car took.....looking great!

    A few comments - take them for what you paid.

    The 2 inch ground clearance is only going to work if you never have any type of a flat bottom or splitter at that height. I haven't closed it in yet, but the bottom of my car is competely flat, from edge to edge and from rear axle to splitter and 3 inch ground clearance is about as low as it will go. Any lower and it won't go on the trailer (I use about 18 feet of ramping to get a 4 degree apparach angle), won't go on the 2.5" high scales at Tours, won't go over minor bumps and etc at event sites. I don't think you will have a problem with your car at 2 inches, just letting you know in case you add a splitter and play with flat bottom aero.

    I don't know much about straight 4 link rear ends, but a little about converging upper 4 link rear ends from my Mustang days. It seems like the only way to fix the converging one is to remove it, so I am curious why you added one? How do you locate your rear roll center on that? Or the instant center? On Mustangs, it was extremely high, like 15 inches or something, which could lead to a very high roll couple, or if both roll centers are too close to the CG, problems with weight transfer. How do you deal with bind in roll? Granted, your working travel is pretty short (can't compress more than 2 inches) but in the Mustang world, stiffening the bushings made it much, much worse than stock. Trust me, I have no knowledge of this type of suspension besides the OEM Mustang setup, which is pretty far from what you have, so I am not second guessing, just wondering.

    Finally, make sure you have enough adjustment on your trailing arms to always be higher on the chassis side than the axle, at ride height. This is extremely important on 3 link setups, I would assume it would carry over to 4 link and would be really important with the shirt links on your car. It looks like you are OK, but is hard to tell from pictures. I ended up switching to a sliding type mount on one end on all my setups as well, finding that the 3/4" or 1" spacing on the holes was too course of an adjustment.

    IMO, hope it helps, etc,

    DaveW

    Thanks for the compliment :) It makes me chuckle that when the car had 4" of ground clearance and a parallel 4 link/panhard bar, the D/E Mod guys said the car was too high and the 4 link wasn't as good as a 3 link or triangulated 4 link, and now that those are changed, you are saying the car is too low and the triangulated 4 link has problems. For the life of me I can't find the website that outlined the advantages and disadvantages of each rear suspension design but the triangulated 4 link was the better of the two for handling. As for bind in roll, the parallel 4 link would bind more than the triangulated one when I would move it through it's full range of motion. And concerning ride height, the faster D/E Mod guys are running as low as 1 1/2" ground clearance in Lincoln so my thoughts are to build the car so everything works good at that height (suspension geometry, etc) and raise the car up if necessary for bumpier lots. Remember, it's a pushrod suspension, I can raise ride height easily and with no change in spring rate or shock travel.

    47CP
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    27 Oct 2010 01:32 PM

    loosecannon wrote:

    Thanks for the compliment :) It makes me chuckle that when the car had 4" of ground clearance and a parallel 4 link/panhard bar, the D/E Mod guys said the car was too high and the 4 link wasn't as good as a 3 link or triangulated 4 link, and now that those are changed, you are saying the car is too low and the triangulated 4 link has problems. For the life of me I can't find the website that outlined the advantages and disadvantages of each rear suspension design but the triangulated 4 link was the better of the two for handling. As for bind in roll, the parallel 4 link would bind more than the triangulated one when I would move it through it's full range of motion. And concerning ride height, the faster D/E Mod guys are running as low as 1 1/2" ground clearance in Lincoln so my thoughts are to build the car so everything works good at that height (suspension geometry, etc) and raise the car up if necessary for bumpier lots. Remember, it's a pushrod suspension, I can raise ride height easily and with no change in spring rate or shock travel.

    Hey, I never commented on ride height or rear suspension on the DMEM list, and I am just telling you things I have learned, some recently. I really don't plan on arguing with you to save you time and money so you can build a faster car when you run in my class.

    I didn't say your car was too low and in fact specifically said I didn't think it was a problem. I also didn't say that there is anything wrong with a converging 4 link, I just don't understand how some of the angles work with them.

    Having spent some time with powerful live axle cars, I would keep my eye on power delivery to the ground and how you can adjust the items that change that.

    DaveW

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    27 Oct 2010 02:30 PM

    No, no Dave, I'm not arguing about anything, you know more about this stuff than I do. I'm trying to learn from others and am very new to 4 link suspension adjustment. Maybe I took a step backwards by changing to a tri-4 link but I don't really know until I drive the car. If I could do it all over, I would have made the links longer but it's too late for that. I also had packaging problems with the panhard bar and the Tri-4 solved those. I found the link to one of the articles about rear suspension design: http://www.automotivearticles.com/1...gn_2.shtml There was a discussion on the Lateral-G forum about Tri-4 links and this is what one aparently knowledgable person said:

    "Roll Center Height: If you have one pair of angled links, the roll center height will be located at the virtual intersection of the two angled links. From a practical standpoint, with this design, you want to get this as low as possible. The Morrison designs put the upper, angled links at the height of the axle housing, which is better than most such designs which put brackets on top of the housing (unacceptable, IMO). Even better, as suggested by Herb Adams, is to make the lower links the angled pair, but this is more difficult to pull off from a structural and packaging standpoint.

    Side View Swing Arm and Roll Steer: Viewing the suspension from the side, imagine extending the upper and lower links until they intersect in space. The line from this point to the center of the axle is the SVSA. The angle that this SVSA forms with the roll axis is important, because it determines whether you will have roll understeer, oversteer, neutral steer. If the SVSA is angled upward toward the front, you will have roll oversteer, which will make your car unpredictable and twitchy on turn-in. Some amount of roll understeer is generally considered desireable, but there are tradeoffs between achieving this and keeping the instant center higher to get more anti-squat. Also, keep in mind that the shorter the SVSA is, the more likely you are to suffer from brake hop.

    Instant Center and Anti-Squat: The intersection of the upper and lower links in the side view, as described above, is the instant center. Draw a line from the point of the rear contact patch through this instant center, and find the intersection point with a horizontal line at the height of the center of gravity of the car. If this intersection point occurs forward of the front contact patch, you have less than 100% anti-squat, if it occurs between the contact patches, you have more than 100% anti-squat. Some amount of anti-squat is desirable, to help the car hook up on acceleration out of the corners. Just how much you want is debated, but if you can get close to 100% AS while still having roll understeer, you're doing pretty well.

    Link Length: The shorter the links are, the more all of these parameters will change as the suspension moves, and the greater the chance that the suspension will start to bind up to a significant degree. From a practical standpoint, it's hard to have links that are too long.

    Getting the optimum balance of all these parameters - even knowing what the optimum balance is, and what it feels like to the driver - is what makes suspension design hard. Build some adjustability in, for sure."

    47CP
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    27 Oct 2010 02:59 PM

    The SVSA, IC and Anti's are the same as on a 3 link, it was the roll center I did not understand. I think you are going to want a pretty low RC in the rear so IMO keep an eye on leaving adjustment for this. Of course, rear RC depends on front RC and they both depend on GC which you may never know. :) I would say that most CP type cars are going to have rear RC's in the 4-10" range, but I have no idea how that translates to your lighter car.

    Perhaps you can buy a Corvette to compensate for the short links? :) I don't think I would lose sleep over it. Mine are 46" or something crazy just becuase I could, but if you look at the overall small amount of total travel in the suspension and the range you are using in normal circumstances, the bad effects will be minimual. You will be no more than 2" of compression and only need 1.5" of droop (if that).

    Thanks for the link to the article, I will read up on it.

    EDIT: PS - please don't ever confuse me with someone knowing something again. :) I have years of Nationals results proving otherwise....

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    27 Oct 2010 08:32 PM

    Unless somebody comes up with compelling evidence why my Tri-4 suspension won't work, I'm going to go with it and if it proves to be a dud, I have all next winter to correct it-and the winters up here in Manitoba are long ;) I think I'm going to try and make a rotissire to make working/painting the bottom of the car easier.

    fd_racer
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    27 Oct 2010 09:23 PM

    Well I would say your 4 link is not a dud at all (at least what I can tell from the photos)... It looks almost the same as my 4 link on my car (just reversed, I have my straight links on top and angled ones on bottom)... So if that is any indicator, I really think you will be fine, just make sure you have no bind... You need 2" upward and 2" downward travel on a light EM car..... Keep an eye on your rocker arm set up (those can be a bit of a pain to tune) make sure your not past 1 to 1 ratio on squat and figure out where you are on roll (that will tell you how high your roll center needs to be, RC change will not be an easy/quick change (you should be around 5-8")...

    Build is coming along good, keep it up....

    Kiesel

    47CP
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    28 Oct 2010 06:49 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

    Unless somebody comes up with compelling evidence why my Tri-4 suspension won't work, I'm going to go with it and if it proves to be a dud, I have all next winter to correct it-and the winters up here in Manitoba are long ;) I think I'm going to try and make a rotissire to make working/painting the bottom of the car easier.

    As long as there is no bind, I agree with Jeff K, the rear will be fine.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    28 Oct 2010 12:43 PM
    fd_racer wrote:

    Well I would say your 4 link is not a dud at all (at least what I can tell from the photos)... It looks almost the same as my 4 link on my car (just reversed, I have my straight links on top and angled ones on bottom)... So if that is any indicator, I really think you will be fine, just make sure you have no bind... You need 2" upward and 2" downward travel on a light EM car..... Keep an eye on your rocker arm set up (those can be a bit of a pain to tune) make sure your not past 1 to 1 ratio on squat and figure out where you are on roll (that will tell you how high your roll center needs to be, RC change will not be an easy/quick change (you should be around 5-8")...

    Build is coming along good, keep it up....

    Kiesel

    Thanks Jeff. If you check out that link in my previous post, they talk about the triangulated 4 link when the bottom links are the angled ones, it's called a Satchell link and aparently has a low roll center. Today I worked with sheet aluminum for the first time to make covers for the back. They aren't riveted yet because my rivet gun is nfg.

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    47CP
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    28 Oct 2010 01:19 PM

    See, aluminum isn't so scary....:)

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    28 Oct 2010 05:12 PM
    47CP wrote:

    See, aluminum isn't so scary....:)

    DaveW

    You're right :) I got my rivet gun working and the cover is all put together and suprisingly strong. I think I will be making a lot more stuff out of aluminium (I have to pronounce it the british way now ;) ). Let's see, I can make a diffuser, airboxes, radiator deflectors, firewall and a few undertray pieces out of the shiny stuff.
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    Also made a tow hook and discovered about half an inch thick patch of lead on the car:
    SCCAForums Image

    loosecannon
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    29 Oct 2010 10:03 AM
    Didn't have time to work on it today but here's a video of the car:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyT3GytphCw
    47CP
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    29 Oct 2010 10:19 AM

    It sounds like your shop is attached to a bar with the music blaring :)

    Looks great!

    DaveW

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    29 Oct 2010 01:32 PM
    47CP wrote:

    It sounds like your shop is attached to a bar with the music blaring :)

    Looks great!

    DaveW

    For everybody who doesn't know, I own Speedworld Indoor Kart Track www.speedworld.ca and have a small area where I fix karts and work on my race car. We open at noon so I come in around 9:00 or 10:00, get the karts ready for racing then work on the car until customers arrive. Sometimes there will be 30 minutes here or there where no customers are racing and I tinker with the car some more. I would say I never work on the car more than 15 hours in a week, but I do spend more time than that thinking about it and how do make this or that. I get to watch karts race and stare at my MGB, planning my next move. There is a sound system so I get to play music while working on the car.

    fd_racer
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    30 Oct 2010 11:56 AM

    very cool man....

    if you have any audio needs let me know www.carvin.com

    check us out...

    Kiesel

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    31 Oct 2010 11:09 AM
    fd_racer wrote:

    very cool man....

    if you have any audio needs let me know www.carvin.com

    check us out...

    Kiesel

    Jeff - I've had some Carvin gear. Good stuff. Ended up watching the manufacturing video on the website. Cool stuff. All of the CNC is cool, but didn't really surprise me. What did was the amount of handwork still involved. Nice to see that even with modern manufacturing doing the hogging, that the guitars are still hand sanded and finished.

    fd_racer
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    31 Oct 2010 12:56 PM

    Thanks.... Yeah there is still a TON of hand work lol.... Some people think it is better to have a had made guitar (100% hand made) I explain it like this... Would you buy hand made pistons and rods, well not me CnC all the way (guitars are no different)... Most companies out there are still hand making them but machine finishing and assembling them (that is why most of the hardware is screwed in crooked lol....

    Anyway if any of you SCCA members are in the San Diego area or are vacationing out this way I would be more than happy to give you a factory tour (we don't give tours) myself. We have a 86,000 sq foot plant in San Diego. A few other SCCA guys have been through it for a tour.

    Now back to the garage to try and make this car fast...

    Kiesel

    jdchristianson
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    31 Oct 2010 01:58 PM
    fd_racer wrote:

    Have you no mercy??? How about you just leave it alone for a year?

    Jeff Christianson

    EM filler

    Now back to the garage to try and make this car fast...

    Kiesel

    fd_racer
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    31 Oct 2010 10:23 PM

    LOL your funny man [:D]

    Just trying my best to keep the car fresh and make sure we stay on our game..

    Kiesel

    loosecannon
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    01 Nov 2010 12:23 PM
    fd_racer wrote:

    LOL your funny man [:D]

    Just trying my best to keep the car fresh and make sure we stay on our game..

    Kiesel

    Hey Jeff, on your lower rear suspension links, are they closer together at the axle or the chassis?

    loosecannon
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    01 Nov 2010 03:14 PM
    Built a rotissiere out of two 1000lb engine stands so that I could paint and work on the bottom of the car(and any future race cars ;) ) I'm not comfortable flipping it with the engine still in the car so you'll have to wait to see it upside down.
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    loosecannon
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    02 Nov 2010 11:36 AM
    Tried bead rolling aluminium for the first time today, it stiffens up floppy sheet pretty nicely. Also filled holes in the bodywork left after removing the door locks, windshield wiper and trim.
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    Bullitt2954
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    03 Nov 2010 08:18 AM

    Nice, Yo!

    Do you have a handheld, or bench-mounted roller? Cheapie-Harbor-Freight-typee, or something a lot more expensive?

    TEH EDITS:

    Y'know, I think I may have an idea of what Ima do with my Roadrunner: after the !#$#@#$%^%$#@$#$@#$ Thieves stripped it to a shell, it's either Crush it, or somethin' like this (it'll cost about ten-times what you're spending here on the MG to bring it back to "stock")

    loosecannon
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    03 Nov 2010 11:33 AM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    Nice, Yo!

    Do you have a handheld, or bench-mounted roller? Cheapie-Harbor-Freight-typee, or something a lot more expensive?

    Bench mounted, $299 at Princess Auto

    loosecannon
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    03 Nov 2010 03:30 PM
    Welded a panel where the sunroof used to be. It looks terrible because I couldn't get the contour of the panel to match the roof. I wish I had gone with my first thought which was to put a hinged aluminum flap over it and call it an escape hatch.
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    fd_racer
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    03 Nov 2010 09:12 PM
    they are closer at the chassis
    loosecannon
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    04 Nov 2010 12:44 PM
    I removed the engine and front suspension and put the car on the spinner so I could weld up the motor mounts and cut out some excess metal from the old firewall. I also checked chassis stiffness by putting the car on stands at the 4 corners and jacking up one side (this was still when the engine and suspension were in). I could raise the front corner less than 1/4 inch before the back end would lift off the stand, is that good or bad?
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    Claff93STS
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    04 Nov 2010 01:34 PM

    loosecannon wrote:
    Welded a panel where the sunroof used to be. It looks terrible because I couldn't get the contour of the panel to match the roof.

    Nothing that two quarts of Bondo can't fix (grin)

    Bullitt2954
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    04 Nov 2010 03:04 PM
    Claff93STS wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:
    Welded a panel where the sunroof used to be. It looks terrible because I couldn't get the contour of the panel to match the roof.

    Nothing that two quarts of Bondo can't fix (grin)

    A car this old? Nah - it wants LEAD filler......

    ("buttering" is a lost art, yo!)

    loosecannon
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    05 Nov 2010 11:54 AM
    Probably meaningless techno-geek stuff but I did some analysis today. I checked the torsional stiffness (Thank you Peter Raymond) by putting the car on 3 stands (2 rear, 1 front corner) and hung a 100 lb weight 4 feet from the single stand and measured the amount of flex in the frame. Without the front crossmember bolted in=800 lb/ft per degree stiffness. With crossmember bolted in=1600 lb/ft per degree of twist. I still have another crossmember that gets bolted in so that number could go up. Also, I plotted the path of one of the rear wheels as it goes through it's projected travel and below is a pic of the passenger side path. Basically, as the suspension compresses(such as a hard left turn) the wheel moves up and slightly forward, causing the rear to steer in the same direction as the front-which is good for neutral handling. This is somewhat offset by the drivers side rear wheel drooping and also moving forward but there isn't as much weight on that tire so the outside one is the important one.
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    loosecannon
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    10 Nov 2010 10:26 AM
    I got my rear tires mounted on wheels, the picture doesn't do the width justice, they are definitely what Jeff Kiesel calls "big boy tires".
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    47CP
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    10 Nov 2010 10:40 AM

    Those are pretty wide, what size are they and how tall?

    I use the GT-1 27 or 28x14 on the rear and they are cartoonish. :)

    On your plot of the rear suspension, how much distance is the axle steering in that arc? I don't like much roll steer myself, but my point is that that arc doesn't look very bad for total movement considering how short the arms are relatively.

    Keep up the good work!

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    10 Nov 2010 01:18 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Those are pretty wide, what size are they and how tall?

    I use the GT-1 27 or 28x14 on the rear and they are cartoonish. :)

    On your plot of the rear suspension, how much distance is the axle steering in that arc? I don't like much roll steer myself, but my point is that that arc doesn't look very bad for total movement considering how short the arms are relatively.

    Keep up the good work!

    DaveW

    The tires are 23.5x14-15 with R25B compound. I got them on a whim but maybe they weren't the best choice. To run them I will have to cut the fender and the proper size to get in the front would be 12.5 inches wide but Hoosier doesn't make one that size AND there's no good way to run anything wider than 10" in the front. Ideally, I should run 11 wide in the back and 10" wide in the front, then my tires would heat up evenly but then the question becomes: is that enough tire to win? As for the arc of the rear axle, if I put a straight edge from the top of the travel(2" from ride height) to the bottom (1.5" from ride height) and measure the arc, it comes out to .090".

    47CP
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    10 Nov 2010 01:46 PM

    Assuming you can keep them on the ground across the tread, I have typically found that more tire is betterer. :) But, this is coming from a guy running 25x13's on the front and 28x14's on the rear, so I may have a defective gene or something. :)

    What size is Keisel running? He doesn't seem to have trouble heating them up and will be a little lighter than you. He has also talked about the Atlantic tires liking a 40/60 FR weight bias, not sure how close to that you will come or if that is a Goodyear only thing.

    I would think that .090" arc is very minimal, which kind of makes me wonder about why I spent so much time fitting the long trailing arms on my car. :)

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    10 Nov 2010 02:42 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Assuming you can keep them on the ground across the tread, I have typically found that more tire is betterer. :) But, this is coming from a guy running 25x13's on the front and 28x14's on the rear, so I may have a defective gene or something. :)

    What size is Keisel running? He doesn't seem to have trouble heating them up and will be a little lighter than you. He has also talked about the Atlantic tires liking a 40/60 FR weight bias, not sure how close to that you will come or if that is a Goodyear only thing.

    I would think that .090" arc is very minimal, which kind of makes me wonder about why I spent so much time fitting the long trailing arms on my car. :)

    DaveW

    I don't know exactly what I'm going to do. I don't really want to cut the body and hang the tires out the side and getting fenders to cover them is too much $$$. I took a look at Jeff's at Nats and can't recall what they are but I think 10"/14", which is what I will have (and mine are Formula Atlantic tires). My car will have 55% weight on the back tires, which is pretty good considering the lump I have for an engine. I agree that .090" was small, that's why I didn't tear it apart and re-do it. I took a look at Fred Puhn's book "How to make your car handle" and used his method to calculate roll centre and from what I can tell, my rear roll centre is somewhere between 4-5" high.

    bruecksteve
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    10 Nov 2010 02:42 PM
    I think Keisel WAS running a 13" wide tire on a 14" rim. Or the other way around but I think I'm correct.
    loosecannon
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    10 Nov 2010 05:56 PM

    Put in the mounts to hold my new BeCool rad in. I had to cut off the front 4 inches of the frame horns in order to move the rad back, which meant a redesign of of the steering rack mount and shock mounts. The frame crossmember is now the steering rack mount and I built a strong bracket that ties the suspension crossmember and the frame crossmember together (I'll post pics tomorrow) to stiffen up the front end. I will also be changing the tubes that tie the rollcage to the frame.
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    loosecannon
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    12 Nov 2010 11:19 AM

    I have done a disservice to the businesses and people who have assisted me with parts and advice up to this point and considering all who are following this, I should make mention of them.

    Fast Toys www.fasttoys.net clutch, mandrel bent tubing, air cleaners, Wilwood pedals, mufflers, brake pads, 4 link bits, gauges, etc

    Walls Rod and Custom www.wallsrodcustom.com axles, dyno tuning

    Denny's driveshaft www.dennysdriveshaft.com driveshaft

    Diamond Racing wheels www.diamondracingwheels.com wheels

    Acklands-Grainger www.acklandsgrainger.com fasteners, tools

    Welders Supply www.welders-supplies.com welding supplies

    Tailor-Made Metals www.tailormademetal.com roll cage tubing, laser cutting

    And to all the guys on the D/E Mod Yahoo Discussion group who have steered me in the right direction (Del Long, Peter Raymond, Jeff Kiesel, etc)-Thanks guys :)

    loosecannon
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    12 Nov 2010 11:19 AM

    I have done a disservice to the businesses and people who have assisted me with parts and advice up to this point and considering all who are following this, I should make mention of them.

    Fast Toys www.fasttoys.net clutch, mandrel bent tubing, air cleaners, Wilwood pedals, mufflers, brake pads, 4 link bits, gauges, etc

    Walls Rod and Custom www.wallsrodcustom.com axles, dyno tuning

    Denny's driveshaft www.dennysdriveshaft.com driveshaft

    Diamond Racing wheels www.diamondracingwheels.com wheels

    Acklands-Grainger www.acklandsgrainger.com fasteners, tools

    Welders Supply www.welders-supplies.com welding supplies

    Tailor-Made Metals www.tailormademetal.com roll cage tubing, laser cutting

    And to all the guys on the D/E Mod Yahoo Discussion group who have steered me in the right direction (Del Long, Peter Raymond, Jeff Kiesel, etc)-Thanks guys :)

    fd_racer
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    13 Nov 2010 09:31 AM

    I run 20x9.5x13 on a 10" wheel up front, 23x13x13 on a 14" wheel out back.... The big thing you will need to do is put GY tires on it, no joke man..... GY tires on my car made a huge difference, I tested back to back and then again (back then I wanted the Hoosier to be the faster tire), I did this test 4 seperate times. Every single time the goodyear was faster, the Goodyear was much easier to drive and was very consistant all the way through the turn.

    Reasons to try the Goodyear tire:

    SCCA Contingency (I handle the contingency requests)

    More runs (I would only get 20 fast runs on the Hoosier and 45 runs before they would chord) GY = 50 fast runs and chord at 110 runs (still fast through 85 runs)

    Faster, every test showed them to be faster they were between .85 and 1.4 faster depending on the course length

    Easier to drive, with the tires being so much easier to drive you end up with more faster runs

    Priced, they are priced to be competitive with Hoosier (and sometimes less)...

    If any of you want more info on the Fast tire go to www.racegoodyear.com or shoot me a e-mail at fd_racer@yahoo.com

    I will help you with recomending the correct tire for your car, camber settings, tire pressure, alignment settings for the Goodyear tire...

    Kiesel

    loosecannon
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    13 Nov 2010 10:27 AM
    By complete fluke, I am running the same width of front/rear wheels as you. I have been running Hoosiers for the last few years but am willing to try Goodyears, especially if they last longer. On my Boxster last year, I went through 2 1/2 sets of Hoosiers because they fell off hard after 50 runs and at $1400 per set, it was an expensive year. I sent you an e-mail.
    47CP
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    13 Nov 2010 01:31 PM

    Jeff,

    Are the contingency guidelines published anywhere on the Goodyear site?

    DaveW

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    13 Nov 2010 01:44 PM

    No Dave they are not, at least yet (once our new very very fast DOT tire is out on the shelves we will have more info online). I am doing it for them as a favor (they help me out plenty [:D])

    Sticker requierments are the same as Hoosier, Goodyear has stickers and so do I...

    We are covering:

    Tours/Pros, min 5 per class payout for 1st only 2 tires

    Nationals, min 10 per class payout for 1st = 4 free tires, 2nd = 1 free tire

    Pro Championship class win year end = 4 free tires

    All requests go through me, a email/call and its taken care of.

    Kiesel

    racingfool
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    13 Nov 2010 02:25 PM

    fd_racer wrote:
    Easier to drive, with the tires being so much easier to drive you end up with more faster runs

    How do they compare to Hoosiers on getting up to temp?

    fd_racer
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    13 Nov 2010 02:49 PM

    I will release info on the new DOT tires shortly (within the next 6 weeks)... Info will include temp range, max working temp, first run performance, number of runs (with proper tire size and chassis set up).... Along with times compared to the A6 Hoosier....

    Kiesel

    racingfool
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    13 Nov 2010 02:55 PM

    fd_racer wrote:
    I will release info on the new DOT tires shortly (within the next 6 weeks)...  Info will include temp range, max working temp, first run performance,

    I meant first run performance on the slicks.

    fd_racer
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    13 Nov 2010 06:26 PM

    LOL sorry......

    The Hoosier R25B compound is softer than the GY R160 compound, having said that I think the Hoosier is too soft and overheat once they hit 135 (start sliding around).... So if the weather is say 60 degrees out and you took 1 run each Hoosier vrs Goodyear I think the times would be the same (since the Goodyear is faster to begin with)... But if the temps are 75 degrees out and sunny the Goodyear will be faster (or if you have a Co-driver).... The Hoosier is the way to go for HPT, but if we were still there GY would already have built a tire in one of the rain compounds to make sure to was the tire.

    It would need to be very very cold to give the Hoosier tire an advantage..... Say around 40 degrees with strong wind, no co-driver....

    Kiesel

    47CP
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    14 Nov 2010 07:46 AM
    fd_racer wrote:

    LOL sorry......

    The Hoosier R25B compound is softer than the GY R160 compound, having said that I think the Hoosier is too soft and overheat once they hit 135 (start sliding around).... So if the weather is say 60 degrees out and you took 1 run each Hoosier vrs Goodyear I think the times would be the same (since the Goodyear is faster to begin with)... But if the temps are 75 degrees out and sunny the Goodyear will be faster (or if you have a Co-driver).... The Hoosier is the way to go for HPT, but if we were still there GY would already have built a tire in one of the rain compounds to make sure to was the tire.

    It would need to be very very cold to give the Hoosier tire an advantage..... Say around 40 degrees with strong wind, no co-driver....

    Kiesel

    Jeff,

    Have any of the CP guys out there done any similair comparison on the GT-1 sizes and compounds? R35 vs 240 or whatever the soft one in those sizes is?

    DaveW

    jesvilla
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    14 Nov 2010 04:49 PM

    47CP wrote:
    Jeff,Have any of the CP guys out there done any similair comparison on the GT-1 sizes and compounds? R35 vs 240 or whatever the soft one in those sizes is?DaveW

    Neither Frank S. or Mike M are online here, but I can tell you that they tried both the Hoosier bias ply slicks and the Hoosier A6 345x35x18 radial, they didn't like either and will be going with the Goodyear tires for '11, on the other hand, I like the Hoosier A6 335x35x17 rear, and 315x35x17 front on my CP car and will stay with them for '11, unless I get to try the Goodyear DOT and it is as good and available.

    Jesus

    loosecannon
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    15 Nov 2010 01:58 PM
    The rain channels looked bad and were not aerodynamic so I removed them, and it was not easy.
    Here's the before:
    SCCAForums Image
    And after:
    SCCAForums Image
    fd_racer
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    15 Nov 2010 03:48 PM

    Yes Dave Mike tried the Hoosier vrs Goodyear thing a few times (bias to bias) and was always much faster on the Goodyear. Guy Ankeny (CP), Chris Cox (FP) did the same test and were much faster on the Goodyear tires as well...

    Dave you should try a set....

    It is the R250 Goodyear...

    Kiesel

    loosecannon
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    16 Nov 2010 01:36 PM

    Cut away the rusty rockers to make way for side exit exhaust, I think they look good. These pipes are just a mock-up, mufflers to be decided on later.
    SCCAForums Image

    SCCAForums Image

    47CP
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    16 Nov 2010 04:31 PM
    fd_racer wrote:

    Yes Dave Mike tried the Hoosier vrs Goodyear thing a few times (bias to bias) and was always much faster on the Goodyear. Guy Ankeny (CP), Chris Cox (FP) did the same test and were much faster on the Goodyear tires as well...

    Dave you should try a set....

    It is the R250 Goodyear...

    Kiesel

    You can send the free set to.....:)

    Running what is considered the faster tire is very tempting, but Hoosier has been very loyal to me over the years with thier contingency program. If someone of my (lack of) skill level can occasionally win tires, and do it over multiple seasons, that is a pretty good level of support and I will reward it with some loyalty. They are also continually developing thier stuff including the GT-1 sizes with hopefully new/better stuff coming in 2011.

    I also hold out hope in the fact that Scott Lewis had the fast time in CP on day 2 at Nationals, on Hoosiers.

    Hoosier probably doesn't agree, but I do think that competition is a very good thing for the competitors and welcome Goodyear. I hope they see enough success to expand thier contingency program(s) and keep supporting Solo long term.

    And then there is Avon, which is not an option for me, but seems like a decent one for the smaller cars.

    DaveW

    47CP
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    16 Nov 2010 04:34 PM
    loosecannon wrote:

    Cut away the rusty rockers to make way for side exit exhaust, I think they look good. These pipes are just a mock-up, mufflers to be decided on later.

    Speaking from experience (I'll be throwing away $400 of mufflers and exhaust this winter) I would over build your system to make sure you have plenty of headroom under the sound regs. Also, in my opinion, you are fighting a losing battle with the exhaust pointing out, but I have no tech to back this up. Pointing down or in and down would seem to be better, but I am no expert (102+ db at Blyhteville!)

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    16 Nov 2010 05:22 PM
    47CP wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:

    Cut away the rusty rockers to make way for side exit exhaust, I think they look good. These pipes are just a mock-up, mufflers to be decided on later.

    Speaking from experience (I'll be throwing away $400 of mufflers and exhaust this winter) I would over build your system to make sure you have plenty of headroom under the sound regs. Also, in my opinion, you are fighting a losing battle with the exhaust pointing out, but I have no tech to back this up. Pointing down or in and down would seem to be better, but I am no expert (102+ db at Blyhteville!)

    DaveW

    A quiet muffler will be heavier than a loud muffler so I'm going to take an educated guess on muffler size and go from there, it's fairly easy to swap out mufflers with the side exhaust. I can't wait to hear the V12. The axles, driveshaft, alternator, clutch and exhaust pipes are all on their way here now so hopefully soon I can get the car moving under it's own power.

    jdchristianson
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    16 Nov 2010 07:33 PM

    I would point them down, or atleast make them adjustable so when the sound police come hunting for you, you can point them down with a min effort.

    Ultra flow from dynomax works on my car. (ls1)

    Jeff Christianson

    loosecannon
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    16 Nov 2010 07:53 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    I would point them down, or atleast make them adjustable so when the sound police come hunting for you, you can point them down with a min effort.

    Ultra flow from dynomax works on my car. (ls1)

    Jeff Christianson

    I have some Dynomax mufflers coming but not the Ultraflow because they don't work on a sidepipe application.

    47CP
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    17 Nov 2010 07:01 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

    A quiet muffler will be heavier than a loud muffler so I'm going to take an educated guess on muffler size and go from there, it's fairly easy to swap out mufflers with the side exhaust. I can't wait to hear the V12. The axles, driveshaft, alternator, clutch and exhaust pipes are all on their way here now so hopefully soon I can get the car moving under it's own power.

    Trust me, I am quite aware of that as I am attempting to quiet down double the HP that you are, but thank god not a rotary. Anyway, you'd have to ask yourself if 10# of extra muffler will slow you down more than having to trash together a cobbled solution in between runs at Nationals to avoid losing runs to DNF.

    I thought I guessed pretty well with the Dynomax Welded Turbo's on my car, but my sound readings were all over the place at National events. Blytheville #1 low 90's, Peru with missing deflector on one side, 98-100, Peru and Midiv Divisionals, mid 90's, Nationals mid 90's, Blyhteville #2 over 100.

    So I am building in some overhead space this winter.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    17 Nov 2010 01:54 PM
    47CP wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:

    A quiet muffler will be heavier than a loud muffler so I'm going to take an educated guess on muffler size and go from there, it's fairly easy to swap out mufflers with the side exhaust. I can't wait to hear the V12. The axles, driveshaft, alternator, clutch and exhaust pipes are all on their way here now so hopefully soon I can get the car moving under it's own power.

    Trust me, I am quite aware of that as I am attempting to quiet down double the HP that you are, but thank god not a rotary. Anyway, you'd have to ask yourself if 10# of extra muffler will slow you down more than having to trash together a cobbled solution in between runs at Nationals to avoid losing runs to DNF.

    I thought I guessed pretty well with the Dynomax Welded Turbo's on my car, but my sound readings were all over the place at National events. Blytheville #1 low 90's, Peru with missing deflector on one side, 98-100, Peru and Midiv Divisionals, mid 90's, Nationals mid 90's, Blyhteville #2 over 100.

    So I am building in some overhead space this winter.

    DaveW

    The Dynomax race mufflers I'm using have 18" of silencer and I expect them to bring the noise down to acceptable levels. I started an aluminum firewall today. Next time I build a racecar, more thought will be put into how the firewall will be because this one is very complicated and requires many pieces and complex angles.
    SCCAForums Image

    loosecannon
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    18 Nov 2010 11:25 AM
    Welded up some adjustable rocker arms for the suspension, with motion ratio adjustable from .65:1 to 1.55:1. I have serrated washers on order to hold the bolts in place but I may go to a threaded rod that will move the bolts back and forth and lock them in place. It makes a big difference where the pushrod and shock bolt on, at .65:1 the suspension doesn't budge and at 1.55:1 it almost bottoms out.
    SCCAForums Image
    47CP
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    18 Nov 2010 11:51 AM

    Very nice. Do you have pics of the proposed serrated washers? I have wanted to try this on a few adjustable things but have never sourced the parts.

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    18 Nov 2010 02:39 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Very nice. Do you have pics of the proposed serrated washers? I have wanted to try this on a few adjustable things but have never sourced the parts.

    DaveW

    Here is the manufacturers page on the washers http://www.internationalsprings.com...ashers.htm and I am getting them through Acklands-Grainger. Their rep was in here showing me an even fancier washer that I may try if these ones don't work.

    loosecannon
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    18 Nov 2010 05:16 PM
    I modeled the pivot on the original motorcycle pieces but now looking at them I realize that the pushrod should be pushing at a 90 degree angle to the direction of the shocks-guess I'm breaking out the grinder :(
    loosecannon
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    23 Nov 2010 08:03 PM
    I mounted the smallest 55 amp alternator I have ever seen (5.7 lbs):
    SCCAForums Image
    And remade the rocker arms so the pushrods are moving at a 90 degree angle to the shocks, and uses holes instead of slots to ensure the bolts stay where they are supposed to be:
    SCCAForums Image
    Bullitt2954
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    24 Nov 2010 11:02 AM

    Do you have a local shop plasma-cutting or water-jet-cutting your "small" parts? (it'd have to be water-jet or laser, to cut the holes that precise I'd say).

    loosecannon
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    24 Nov 2010 11:02 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    Do you have a local shop plasma-cutting or water-jet-cutting your "small" parts? (it'd have to be water-jet or laser, to cut the holes that precise I'd say).

    A local shop, Tailor-Made, laser cuts some stuff and I use a plasma cutter, grinders and dremmel for the rest. The slotted rockers were laser cut, the later ones were plasma and drill press. It was a productive day today. I got the radiator mounts made and the top plate is made from the aluminum skid plate off a Suburban 4x4:
    SCCAForums Image
    Also installed the fuel filler for the Jaz fuel cell:
    SCCAForums Image
    And made new front shock mounts that also act as a brace for the crossmember and weighs less than the old shock mounts:
    SCCAForums Image
    SCCAForums Image

    Thanks to Dan Lipperini Jr at [url]www.racelabz.com[/url] for sending me a beautiful towhook to replace my ratty old one:
    SCCAForums Image

    cmt52663
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    25 Nov 2010 01:08 PM

    I surely do admire that V12 behind all the other creative bits. Perhaps awe is a better choice of language.

    Happy Thanksgiving - or the equivalent thereof...

    loosecannon
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    26 Nov 2010 02:47 PM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    I surely do admire that V12 behind all the other creative bits. Perhaps awe is a better choice of language.

    Happy Thanksgiving - or the equivalent thereof...

    Thanks, I know the V12 is not as powerful,light or responsive as an LS1 but it will probably have enough torque to get the job done and it will sound like nothing else at Nationals.

    My 9 lb Braille battery from www.fasttoys.net, mounted in the passenger side front wheelwell. I considered putting it in the back of the car but the weight of the cables would equal the batteries plus the amp drop might mean I have to go to a bigger battery. And, yes, I will be putting a protective plate in the front to keep rocks from hitting it.
    SCCAForums Image
    One advantage of a 12" driveshaft is that only one driveshaft loop is required:
    SCCAForums Image

    loosecannon
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    27 Nov 2010 09:11 PM
    so, all my pictures of the car gone now? Not cool
    christoc
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    27 Nov 2010 09:28 PM
    I'll fix the UBB code, it is one of the "known" issues with the conversion.
    racingfool
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    27 Nov 2010 11:32 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    so, all my pictures of the car gone now? Not cool

    We've got your avatar to look at. =)

    jdchristianson
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    28 Nov 2010 09:20 AM

    Just add more pics, we've been loving the progress!

    loosecannon
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    30 Nov 2010 02:31 PM

    I re-made the transmission tunnel out of aluminum:

    SCCAForums Image

    I ran into a problem with the part that goes over the bellhousing because it is a complex curve. Fortunately, when we replaced all the lights in our building, I saved the beautiful aluminum housings from the sodium lights because it was exactly the curve I needed-spooky :) Here's a housing:

    SCCAForums Image

    Then I cut out the piece I needed:
    SCCAForums Image

    And here it is installed-perfect!!
    SCCAForums Image

    Bullitt2954
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    30 Nov 2010 06:47 PM

    I never throw anything away, either.

    You just never [i]know[/i]........

    (anybody know why the html tags aren't working?)

    l33t9eek
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    01 Dec 2010 03:27 PM

    Testing............. Looks like you have to use full HTML tags.. a pain vs.

    loosecannon
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    01 Dec 2010 03:36 PM
    I had to split my rear shelf into 3 pieces so I could run a hose from the fuel filler to the fuel cell, and build a curved tube to get around the roll bar. I riveted bent strips of aluminum along the center section to stiffen it and will probably use dzus fasteners to hold the side pieces on.

    loosecannon
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    01 Dec 2010 04:25 PM
    Here's some pics from before in html code:
    light housing:

    Cut out section:

    perfect fit with new aluminum tunnel:
    Bullitt2954
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    01 Dec 2010 04:52 PM
    l33t9eek wrote:

    Testing............. Looks like you have to use full HTML tags.. a pain vs.

    I'm sorry, I don't speak "Jive".....
    christoc
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    02 Dec 2010 03:10 AM
    I got the old ubb IMG code tags all replaced, though it appears I screwed up two of the test posts, apologies for that one!
    Dave Hardy
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    02 Dec 2010 07:20 AM
    Is there a plugin or anything that allows this software to recognize the typical [IMG] style tags?
    jdchristianson
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    03 Dec 2010 08:43 AM

    I love the light housing, That's the spirit in EM I love! "Hey this stuff in the junk pile will work perfect."

    Jeff Christianson

    loosecannon
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    03 Dec 2010 01:36 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    I love the light housing, That's the spirit in EM I love! "Hey this stuff in the junk pile will work perfect."

    Jeff Christianson

    How about the aluminum skidplate from an old Suburban I used as the top radiator mount?

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/loosecannon/MGB-GT/IMG_5090.jpg

    http://<a" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v70..." border="0" alt="Photobucket">

    Sorry for all the code but I can't get any pictures to pop up on the new forum

    jdchristianson
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    03 Dec 2010 04:41 PM

    Excellent, now you just need something from the plumbing aisle at the hardware store. I have a rubber adapter for pvc sewer pipe that worked perfect to mate the air filter to the intake.

    Keep up the good work


    Jeff

    loosecannon
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    03 Dec 2010 04:49 PM
    I noticed that the bracket holding the rocker arm would flex when somebody jumped up and down on the suspension:


    So I added a bracket:
    loosecannon
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    04 Dec 2010 02:50 PM
    Some parts arrived today. A really small driveshaft and some lightweight front calipers:
    loosecannon
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    06 Dec 2010 01:22 PM
    The old front brake caliper and pads- 11lbs 14 oz


    Wilwood brake caliper and pads- 4lbs 2 oz


    Bolted on:
    loosecannon
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    06 Dec 2010 11:40 PM
    Upon the suggestion of others, I started a blog for the project which contains more details and pictures than this thread, and that's where most of my efforts will go from now on. And since some have already been contributing parts and money, I added a donate button for anybody who wants to see this project completed in time for 2011. I will remember contributors when it comes to ridealongs or co-drives ;) http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com/

    loosecannon
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    07 Dec 2010 03:46 PM
    Oops, made a mistake linking my blog-try this: http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com
    loosecannon
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    09 Dec 2010 07:31 PM
    I moved the shifter forward to put it in line with the steering wheel:


    And built a belt tensioner:


    And added ventilated discs. The unventilated one on the bottom, ventilated on top. I had several lbs machined off the discs before putting them on.


    Lots more detail and pictures on my blog http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com
    loosecannon
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    16 Dec 2010 01:49 PM

    The front tires I bought for testing are on the car. They say 23x9.5-15 on them but when mounted on 10" wide wheels, they are a lot wider:





    Also mounted a master battery switch by the front windshield, which meant I had to move the battery to the drivers side to shorten the battery cables:



    Started on the fuel system by mounting the Holley fuel pump as low and close to the fuel cell as possible:



    And bolted on the Fidanza aluminum flywheel:

    http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com

    loosecannon
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    21 Dec 2010 11:06 PM
    Took a bunch of mandrel bent tube I got from www.fasttoys.net and welded it all up into collectors and side pipes. Here's the drivers side collector:



    Passenger side collector:




    Flowing into a 2.5" Dynomax bullet muffler:




    More detail on my blog http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com
    loosecannon
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    21 Dec 2010 11:49 PM
    IMG code doesn't work-Lame!! Ok, here's the html version:

    EDIT: removed to clean up duplicate posting with IMG code fix

    christoc
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    22 Dec 2010 12:24 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    IMG code doesn't work-Lame!! Ok, here's the html version:

    Actually they do NOW (within the past 10 minutes). I just uploaded some new code to the site that will parse the IMG and URL bbcodes into HTML format when editing or creating a new post. I already edited your previous post to test them out.

    loosecannon
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    22 Dec 2010 01:25 AM
    Chris Hammond wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:
    IMG code doesn't work-Lame!! Ok, here's the html version:

    Actually they do NOW (within the past 10 minutes). I just uploaded some new code to the site that will parse the IMG and URL bbcodes into HTML format when editing or creating a new post. I already edited your previous post to test them out.

    You're the best, I don't care what anybody says ;)

    christoc
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    22 Dec 2010 01:36 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

    You're the best, I don't care what anybody says ;)

    That's good, cause they've said a lot lately!

    loosecannon
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    22 Dec 2010 06:59 PM

    Built a pod for the gauges and switches out of aluminum. I wanted it to be quickly removeable so I could access the back of the switches and gauges so it's held on by wingnuts and can be opened up in no time.

    More pics and details http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com

    loosecannon
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    23 Dec 2010 04:27 PM
    Some recent pics of the engine in the car:







    cmt52663
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    24 Dec 2010 06:59 AM

    Thanks again for sharing this build and Merry Christmas.

    Cheers,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    24 Dec 2010 11:16 PM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    Thanks again for sharing this build and Merry Christmas.

    Cheers,

    Charlie

    You are welcome. Here is video of the car running, I briefly give it some rpms and you can hear that unique V12 sound:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpdcSeUKbvQ

    loosecannon
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    25 Dec 2010 02:46 PM
    For reference, here is what the car should sound like when tuned (wait for the in-car cam when the announcer shuts up): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5jtf83eKGs
    loosecannon
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    29 Dec 2010 08:01 PM
    According to my calculations, the MGB is going to be balanced towards understeer so I decided to install a sway bar on the rear of the car only. I found a sway bar calculator online and punched some numbers into it to figure out what I needed. Here is the calculator
    http://www.circletrack.com/car_raci...to_01.html

    I used scrap aluminum blocks to make sway bar mounts, here's the drivers side:



    I built a bar based on the sway bar calculator. It is .750" OD, .500" ID and has an effective length of 28". The arms have 6 holes for adjustment from 69 lb/in to 163 lb/in and should easily adjust the car from understeer to oversteer. Here's the bar welded up:




    Here it is mounted but I still have to make the drop links that connect the bar to the suspension. Acccording to the sway bar calculator, the 6 holes will add from 69 lb/in to 163 lb/in to the suspension, and this should easily change the balance from undesteer to oversteer. Some in the Modified community say that mild steel works just fine as a sway bar as long as there isn't too much suspension travel, but I plan on taking the bar to get heat treated and turned into spring steel.




    loosecannon
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    31 Dec 2010 03:52 PM
    Another video of the engine running, this time it's up to operating temperature
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmfOjZIM7yE
    loosecannon
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    07 Jan 2011 08:06 PM
    The oil temperature, coolant temperature and fan sensor all use a 1/2" NPT size and the engine didn't have any holes that size, so I bought a tap and made my own.




    Oil temperature bung welded into oil pan:




    Coolant temperature sensor by passenger side thermostat:





    Fan sensor by drivers side thermostat (yes, the Jag has two thermostats):




    Video of sensor test and sudden coolant leak|
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpVgW_dmIII
    loosecannon
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    14 Jan 2011 05:14 PM
    I welded in bungs for oxygen sensors so I could tune the 4 carbs. Passenger side




    Drivers side



    And I rebuilt the carbs and found that the floats were set wrong, the temperature compensator valves were plugged, two of the 4 bypass valves were ripped and all the bypass valves were non-functional because somebody incorrectly routed the vacuum lines. Here is one of the temperature compensator valves, that circular part is a hole that is supposed to be open but is plugged with sludge.




    loosecannon
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    19 Jan 2011 02:16 PM
    Video of flames shooting out the exhaust-it's cool, don't deny it!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2M4po-YcYp4
    loosecannon
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    24 Jan 2011 06:20 PM

    I have been messing with the steering. The Jag I got the front suspension from had the steering rack behind the wheels but I have no room there so I had to mount the rack in front. By a stroke of luck, the steering arms from the MGB bolted right onto the Jaguar knuckles without any modification. Here is the rack bolted in front of the suspension and the new tie rod ends attached to the MGB arms:



    When I measured how sharp the wheels turned, I found that they turned 25 degrees in either direction (50 degrees total) which is probably enough for anything but the tightest turns. The restriction was the tie rods hitting the upright pieces of the crossmember:



    So I notched and welded the upright pieces, now I get 32 degrees of turning angle:



    Next thing I worked on is Ackerman, which is when the inside tire turns sharper than the outside tire, reducing scrubbing and making sharp turns easier. Currently, the car has zero Ackerman, which a little toe-out could cure but that is sort of a band-aid fix. By moving the steering rack back, I can get some Ackerman but then the tie rods run into the upright again, reducing my turning radius. Here is a shot of the rack moved back 3/4", which gives me 24 degrees of turning. I think I am going to notch the upright further so I can move the rack back.

    More details http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com

    loosecannon
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    25 Jan 2011 04:52 PM
    Victory!! I move the steering rack back 2 inches and now have good Ackerman. I had to re-route the oil line under the engine and notch the upright pieces but now I have 28 degrees of steering in each direction.





    47CP
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    25 Jan 2011 05:58 PM
    I am with Del, I think you will like that better.

    It is hard to see from the pics, is that section of frame missing going to be a problem? If so, it would be easy enough to run a small tube on the front to triangulate it.

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    26 Jan 2011 12:29 AM
    47CP wrote:
    I am with Del, I think you will like that better.

    It is hard to see from the pics, is that section of frame missing going to be a problem? If so, it would be easy enough to run a small tube on the front to triangulate it.

    DaveW

    I don't think the section I cut out makes a big contribution to stiffness but I will be taking a closer look at it to see if it needs some help

    loosecannon
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    26 Jan 2011 07:42 PM
    I need a hydraulic release bearing so after making the appropriate measurements, I ordered the Tilton pieces from www.fasttoys.net . Here is the aluminum piece that replaces the front bearing plate on the T5 tranny:




    Then the release bearing spins onto the aluminum piece and is adjusted to provide the right gap between the release bearing and the fingers of the pressure plate:


    loosecannon
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    26 Jan 2011 07:55 PM
    I ordered 4 K&N air cleaners for the Stromberg 175CD carbs but the rear air cleaners interfere with the roll cage tubes, so I decided to build my own air cleaner housings for dual oval air cleaners. I started by cutting two pieces of plywood to the same shape as the air cleaners. These acted as a template for the housings.




    Then I cut some aluminum a little larger than the plywood:




    And clamped it between the two pieces of plywood:




    Then I hammered the edges over:




    And was left with half a housing, which still needs some holes drilled and some sanding to look good.




    And once I made a second one, I had a completed housing. I may still use this technique to modify the original round air cleaners and use those instead of the oval ones.


    loosecannon
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    28 Jan 2011 09:50 PM
    Drove it around the track today, it was awesome!!!! Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YJVj_tRh0E
    74_5.0L_Z
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    29 Jan 2011 09:27 AM
    The car looks awesome. In which region of the country will you be autocrossing? I would really like to see (and compete against) your car.
    loosecannon
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    29 Jan 2011 12:14 PM
    74_5.0L_Z wrote:
    The car looks awesome. In which region of the country will you be autocrossing? I would really like to see (and compete against) your car.

    I am actually in Canada but if the shakedown tests go well, I will be at Nationals in Lincoln. I would like to go to the spring event in Lincoln but it's doubtful I can make it.

    loosecannon
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    01 Feb 2011 07:16 PM
    After driving the car, I realized that the seating position wasn't comfortable and moving the pedals is not an option, which leaves moving the roll cage back-how hard could that be? I moved the cage back and there were some side benefits like the fuel filler hose is now straight and the tubes that run over the doors no longer hit my head with a helmet on. Here are some before pictures:





    And after:



    loosecannon
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    02 Feb 2011 04:01 PM
    I put hood pins on the car and drove it for the first time with the hood and fenders on-my goodness, that hood seems to go on forever. Here's a few pics:










    loosecannon
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    08 Feb 2011 07:58 PM
    I want to put a diffuser in the car but there is no room under the 16 gallon fuel cell to fit one. I got a 5 gallon cell and installed it so I can also fit a rear diffuser. As a bonus, switching to the smaller cell dropped nearly 30 lbs off the back of the car. Here are the two cells:



    Installed in the car:



    With all the covers, vent and fuel filler tubes in place:



    It's a sump style cell so even the smallest amount of fuel will still get to the pump:

    loosecannon
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    09 Feb 2011 06:42 PM
    I looked at a lot of tech articles on rear diffusers and there are a lot of opinions on angles, sizes, distance from the ground and effectiveness on different shapes of cars. I did my best to put all that together into one design of rear diffuser. I made the measurements for the rear diffuser and built it to the maximum of SCCA rules but it sure looks big on the car.



    The front spoiler arrived today and I bolted it on, but it's going to need some trimming and a grille to look right.




    See how I built the diffuser http://ultimatemgbbuild.blogspot.com
    loosecannon
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    14 Feb 2011 08:16 PM
    Built the spoiler today, and it's big to match the diffuser:





    loosecannon
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    15 Feb 2011 08:08 PM
    I bought a grille and when I went to fit it, I discovered that the opening was all wrong because the fenders were not positioned correctly. Once I had the grille in the proper place, I built a single lower aluminum plate and two top aluminum straps to hold it in place.






    And Richard Navin from the MG Experience forum (MGB246) came all the way from Grimsby, Ontario to see the car so I gave him a ride, here's the video, not sure why the audio is so poor:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uD6r6EHAXs
    loosecannon
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    17 Feb 2011 12:22 AM
    My endplates were too big so I trimmed them and think it looks better now. I added adjustable struts to the back and now the boot lid can be opened without unbolting the spoiler. I also didn't want an ugly spoiler lip up front so I took a page from the Toyota GT-ONE race car and put an air dam behind the regular spoiler and it can keep the air out from under the car without "spoiling" the look of the spoiler. The last pic is the front of the car with the spoiler and air dam installed-it's invisible, right?











    christoc
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    17 Feb 2011 12:44 AM
    Pretty close to invisible
    loosecannon
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    18 Feb 2011 08:36 PM
    Finished the drivers side of the firewall, which includes the complex and difficult footwell.
    I added an access panel so I can get at the master cylinders.








    loosecannon
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    23 Feb 2011 10:20 PM
    Made a splitter out of a material called Alumilite. It has a corrugated center sandwiched between two sheets of aluminum. I still have to attach strut rods to hold the splitter up but you get the idea:




    loosecannon
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    28 Feb 2011 08:54 PM
    Hired a flatbed to haul the car to a dyno today, was super excited to see what it could do. On the way, the dyno people called to cancel then the flatbed driver crushed the bottom of the radiator while unloading-not a good day ;(





    Bullitt2954
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    01 Mar 2011 02:46 PM
    That'll pound right out.....

    loosecannon
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    04 Mar 2011 08:23 PM
    Ok, finally got her on a dyno. My goals were 275 hp/300 ft/lb torque and I almost got them with 255 hp@5468 rpm and 300 ft/lb@4086 rpm. The first few pulls were to only 5000 rpm to solve a fuel pressure issue (stupid glass fuel filter was too restrictive) and then we moved on to timing. There wasn't enough timing in it so I had to re-index the distributor to get more advance and initially we were confused because power numbers were dropping drastically with each pull. Of course this throws off any useful data collection and we speculated that the liquid cooled (heated) intake manifold was causing the power drops because of heat soaking. We let the engine cool for 5 minutes and picked up 8hp and 30 ft/lbs torque so imagine if the intake charge could stay cool. Also, to get the intake air hot, Jaguar engineered two 90 degree bends that maximized the incoming air's exposure to the hot intake surface and these proved to be very restricitive. Power fell off above 5500 rpm so the only run where I went to 6000 rpm was the last one. I have already dropped off the intake manifolds to a fab shop and they are eliminating the liquid cooled part of the intake and the two 90 degree bends at the same time. I am also sending the cams to XKS Unlimited to be reground to their road race profile and that together with hp valve springs will raise the powerband to 7000 rpm. Listen to the video then imagine another 1500-2000 rpm-oh yeah!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsjvR5eZUTk

    Here is a pic of the passenger side carbs. The air goes through the carb into the silver aluminum liquid cooled housing, makes a 90 degree straight up then another 90 degree turn to the right and into the intake and engine. I am eliminating the silver aluminum part, moving the carbs up and attaching directly to the black intake manifold:

    loosecannon
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    14 Mar 2011 07:08 PM
    The heat under the hood was rather high so I added some vents on the fenders to evacuate some hot air.





    loosecannon
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    25 Mar 2011 02:29 PM
    I stripped the car in preparation for bodywork and painting and weighed the engine by itself-669 lbs!!! I attached a picture of the rad and you can see that West-End rad on Logan did a great job of fixing it and the Dr.Hook driver came by today with cash to pay for it.







    cmt52663
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    25 Mar 2011 04:42 PM

    I love happy endings - that crushed radiator made me cringe.

    Still lurking here, and thanks for the vicarious thrills as always.

    Best regards,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    26 Mar 2011 01:14 AM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    I love happy endings - that crushed radiator made me cringe.

    Still lurking here, and thanks for the vicarious thrills as always.

    Best regards,

    Charlie

    I think God is rewarding me for my patience with the tow truck driver. I love this car and seeing a new custom rad crushed was painful but I was relaxed and didn't freak out. I didn't get worked up when the rad shop took twice as long as they said it would take and in the end, the rad shop exchanged racing at my kart track for the repairs and still gave me a receipt, which the tow truck driver paid cash-everybody wins. Funny, I offered a deal to the tow truck driver where he didn't have to pay me, just haul my car anywhere with 10 miles of the city twice. He thought that was a great idea as long as he didn't have to haul the MGB again. When I told him it would only be the MGB, he wanted pay me instead. And now the bodywork and paint begins-hopefully it doesn't take too long because my wife wants to do it.

    loosecannon
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    30 Mar 2011 12:19 PM
    All this extra hole cutting equals only 32 lbs-frustrating!











    Bullitt2954
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    30 Mar 2011 05:39 PM
    You didn't swiss-cheese the tires! I hear that there is at least 35-40 pounds in each of those........


    (duck and cover)
    loosecannon
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    31 Mar 2011 01:25 PM
    Bodywork and paint started today. I am using glaze to smooth out the spots where I have welded trim holes, door handle holes and button holes shut. The car was hit in the hood and rear passenger side as well and I'm not going to add 10 lbs of bondo to make it look perfect. Some ripples are just going to have to be accepted.







    loosecannon
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    01 Apr 2011 07:10 PM
    Went in early again and did more bodywork. While waiting for glaze to cure, I counted how many lightening holes I have cut or drilled into the car-418 holes!! And every one of them has to be smoothed out with a die grinder. I ground an incredible amount of filler off the passenger rear fender, it was at least 1/4" thick from taillight to door and 3/4" thick in places. I also found a giant rusty area that had to be cut out and a new piece welded in. I also cut out both wheelwells because I had made them out of steel and I am going to re-make them out of aluminum to save a bunch of weight.







    loosecannon
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    02 Apr 2011 08:24 PM
    More glaze, more sanding, some primer to reveal the flaws then sand some more.





    loosecannon
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    03 Apr 2011 06:15 PM
    I went in this morning and worked on it for 4 hours. Getting the final bumps and scrapes smoothed out and I welded the mail roll hoop to the body to stiffen the whole structure.







    loosecannon
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    04 Apr 2011 08:29 PM
    While priming the inside, I discovered to my horror that primer will not cover marks made by Sharpie, and I used a Sharpie a lot. Check out the first pic which is after several coats of primer over a Sharpie. I have the inside and outside all primed and ready for sealer.







    loosecannon
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    05 Apr 2011 09:13 PM
    Briget has been building a perfect fiberglass replica of an MGB front bumper and today it got put on the car for the first time. I built lightweight mounts out of aluminum and they are suprisingly sturdy. It's a shame the bumper ends will have to be trimmed for tire clearance.







    loosecannon
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    09 Apr 2011 05:00 AM
    I started painting the car at midnight, once the karts stopped racing and it took until 2:30 am to get it painted inside and out. The rubber dust in the air did a number of the finish but it is what it is and I didn't have the time or money to get the car painted anywhere else. Here's a time lapse video:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnG31_rA--4
    cmt52663
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    09 Apr 2011 07:27 AM

    that'd be one heck of a lot better than my first attempt...

    looks like a race car to me.

    thanks for sharing - I'm now a little fatigued by watching and need another cup of coffee!

    loosecannon
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    09 Apr 2011 12:54 PM
    More pics:













    cmt52663
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    09 Apr 2011 01:16 PM

    Looks like some kind of MGB/fighter hybrid with all the "cheesing" - a rather aeronautical appearance.

    I don't suppose a Merlin would fit though. I think the Jag V12 is probably enough.

    loosecannon
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    09 Apr 2011 01:30 PM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    Looks like some kind of MGB/fighter hybrid with all the "cheesing" - a rather aeronautical appearance.

    I don't suppose a Merlin would fit though. I think the Jag V12 is probably enough.

    There is 418 holes drilled or cut into the car, it's silly.

    47CP
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    09 Apr 2011 01:43 PM
    Looking good, hope to see it in Lincoln!

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    09 Apr 2011 01:49 PM
    47CP wrote:
    Looking good, hope to see it in Lincoln!

    DaveW

    Me too ;) I did a walkaround video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQnMWlQ-f9A

    John V
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    10 Apr 2011 09:45 AM
    This whole build is pretty amazing.
    loosecannon
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    10 Apr 2011 11:07 AM
    John V wrote:
    This whole build is pretty amazing.

    Thanks. I hope it's as fun to drive as it was to build. Now I have to assemble everything without scratching the paint.

    loosecannon
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    11 Apr 2011 12:15 AM
    I ran out of aluminum and steel I needed today but still got a bunch of stuff done, like the drivers side wheelwell out of aluminum:



    And heat reflective material on the footwells:



    Covered the holes in the frame with thin aluminum:



    Made headlight covers out of aluminum:



    And covered the inside frame lightening holes with aluminum, I dig how this looks:



    Bolted the rear shocks and fuel cell in:



    Cleaned and painted the crossmember:

    loosecannon
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    13 Apr 2011 12:15 AM
    Made panels to cover the holes in the interior, without them smoke from the rear tires would make it's way into the car, and they look better:




    Finished the passenger side wheelwell



    The great lump is back in the car, except now it has solid motor mounts and is clean,courtesy of Briget who spent a long time with degreaser and toothbrushes getting 27 years of grime off:



    And apparently somebody named Dave or Dane assembled my engine all those years ago:

    cmt52663
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    13 Apr 2011 05:39 AM

    Briget! Take a bow please. The engine looks gorgeous.

    This just gets better and better.

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    13 Apr 2011 08:19 AM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    Briget! Take a bow please. The engine looks gorgeous.

    This just gets better and better.

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    She thanks you :) Here are a couple of more pics:

    [I


    loosecannon
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    13 Apr 2011 05:33 PM
    Riveted in the aluminum floor on today:



    And filled in the gaps behind the wheelwells with aluminum:





    And put vinyl edging around the wheelwells:

    loosecannon
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    14 Apr 2011 07:12 PM
    I got some high tech heat reflective tiles from www.fasttoys.net and installed them in the area where my side pipes run so hopefully I don't bubble the paint on the door sills.



    Put the rad in with the lightened top mount:



    I put aluminum mesh where the taillights used to be so now air from the rear wheelwells will be evacuated straight out the back-and they look really cool!




    loosecannon
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    15 Apr 2011 07:52 PM
    The transmission tunnel and shifter are installed. The 11 holes I drilled in it brings the total to 429 lightening holes:



    Rear spoiler is on and I had to do a bunch of trimming to keep it from scratching the paint.



    The fuel line is plumbed and the rear deck panels riveted on:



    I installed both seats and they are comfy as long as you are shorter than 5' 10" and smaller than 170 lbs:

    loosecannon
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    16 Apr 2011 05:48 PM
    I made the splitter strut mounts out of aluminum channel but didn't have a chance to rivet them on yet:









    Wheels, tires, spoiler and splitter are on:

    loosecannon
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    17 Apr 2011 01:12 AM
    I am making major changes to the intake manifolds to gain some performance. The first picture is the stock configuration for the carbs. The air goes through the carb and the liquid heated intake, makes a 90 degree up, then another 90 agree left and into the engine:



    The modification involves eliminating the liquid heated part, moving the carbs up and also getting rid of the two 90 degree bends, like in this pic:



    These beautiful billet aluminum blocks were made by JRS Manufacturing and involved 18 hours of computer modeling and more hours on a CNC milling machine:



    They will be welded to the intake manifolds:

    loosecannon
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    18 Apr 2011 08:18 PM
    I changed the vertical bars of the grille to the same aluminum mesh of the taillights. Here is the grille in stock form, also notice the new splitter struts:






    The mesh grille:



    Also put mesh in the cowl vent:

    Bullitt2954
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    18 Apr 2011 10:02 PM
    You know, there's one of these cars sittin' at a Dealer in Gravette, AR. He's had it on his lot since late last-Summer, might be willing to make a deal.

    I wonder....

    loosecannon
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    18 Apr 2011 11:41 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:
    You know, there's one of these cars sittin' at a Dealer in Gravette, AR. He's had it on his lot since late last-Summer, might be willing to make a deal.

    I wonder....

    Going to join the Mod group or would you drive it on the street?

    Bullitt2954
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    19 Apr 2011 10:32 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    Bullitt2954 wrote:
    You know, there's one of these cars sittin' at a Dealer in Gravette, AR. He's had it on his lot since late last-Summer, might be willing to make a deal.

    I wonder....

    Going to join the Mod group or would you drive it on the street?

    Nah, I'm just musing I suppose. This one appears to be in WAY too nice of condition to E-Mod it. I'd probably be murdered in my sleep by the MG Club for doing-so.

    However, since Feckin' THIEVES stripped my Roadrunner to an empty shell, perhaps I should do something with that? Of course, it IS awfully wide - probably as wide as a typical 'Vette, only taller, longer, and heavier....

    Might be cool with a late-Hemi drivetrain, if not particularly fast through a cone-course.

    kjchristopher
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    19 Apr 2011 12:02 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    Nah, I'm just musing I suppose. This one appears to be in WAY too nice of condition to E-Mod it. I'd probably be murdered in my sleep by the MG Club for doing-so.

    However, since Feckin' THIEVES stripped my Roadrunner to an empty shell, perhaps I should do something with that? Of course, it IS awfully wide - probably as wide as a typical 'Vette, only taller, longer, and heavier....

    Might be cool with a late-Hemi drivetrain, if not particularly fast through a cone-course.

    There is a guy in the San Diego region that has a lot of fun with his. He even picked up number "383" for the door.

    That said, I'm glad I didn't do the CP route with my 68 Barracuda.

    FritzSpeed
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    19 Apr 2011 02:54 PM
    Amazing progress on your build! I am just about done with my own MGB E-mod project, but yours is quite a bit more ambitious! I noticed that you have opted for Hoosier racing slicks. Have you already incorporated a scattershield or safety blanket for the bellhousing? I have had a hard time finding something for my Rover/T5 setup, so I am running Hoosier A6's this season.
    loosecannon
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    19 Apr 2011 04:12 PM
    FritzSpeed wrote:
    Amazing progress on your build! I am just about done with my own MGB E-mod project, but yours is quite a bit more ambitious! I noticed that you have opted for Hoosier racing slicks. Have you already incorporated a scattershield or safety blanket for the bellhousing? I have had a hard time finding something for my Rover/T5 setup, so I am running Hoosier A6's this season.

    Try getting a kevlar one from the drag race or circle track guys. They are pliable cloth and can wrap around anything.

    loosecannon
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    20 Apr 2011 05:47 PM
    I remade the straps going to the grille and bead rolled them so they look nice:



    And installed straps to hold the rear hatch down:

    loosecannon
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    21 Apr 2011 07:07 PM
    The intakes came back from JRS manufacturing www.jrstephenson.com today and after some cleaning up with a die grinder, I shot a coat of paint on them and did a trial fitting on the car. The good news is that the linkage will not have to be modified much to fit and the great news is that the hood doesn't have to be modified at all to fit.






    loosecannon
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    21 Apr 2011 08:02 PM
    The splitter is not allowed to extend beyond the bodywork so to make it more effective, I added endplates.



    And to keep the exhaust from discoloring the paint, I added stainless steel heat shields above each outlet:

    cmt52663
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    22 Apr 2011 05:52 AM

    Heck, Keisel doesn't even have such pretty cam covers! This is getting serious. (Oh wait, no cams...).

    I have seen the Fuchsia! (Or is that Cerulean?)

    Palette

    loosecannon
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    22 Apr 2011 01:56 PM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    Heck, Keisel doesn't even have such pretty cam covers! This is getting serious. (Oh wait, no cams...).

    I have seen the Fuchsia! (Or is that Cerulean?)

    Palette

    If pink made me faster, I would paint the whole car pink and wear a pink racing suit. The Panther Pink cam covers are part of a graphics scheme which shall be revealed next week,, it's going to be cool.

    loosecannon
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    26 Apr 2011 07:16 PM
    I figured out a way to have a front tow hook. If I need it, I just have to slide it under the splitter, through a slot in the air dam mount and to a bracket bolted to the crossmember where it is held in with a sheer pin. It is not attached until needed.



    I also put all the Lexan windows in, using MGB seals on the front and back windows and sunroof seals on the side windows and the sunroof.







    christoc
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    26 Apr 2011 08:15 PM
    It's next week! I want to see the new scheme! :D
    loosecannon
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    26 Apr 2011 08:24 PM
    Chris Hammond wrote:
    It's next week! I want to see the new scheme! :D

    The vinyl guys keep sending e-mail regarding tiny details so hopefully I have seen the last of those and they'll just go to print. It's going to be pretty neat.

    Autoxevo
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    27 Apr 2011 01:38 AM
    Thank you for repowering with British power! :)
    Any reason your keepin with the 175's? Converting to HD8's or HIF's would be a good improvment for power. Of course, the Webbers are the way to go for real power :)
    loosecannon
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    27 Apr 2011 08:29 AM
    Autoxevo wrote:
    Thank you for repowering with British power! :)
    Any reason your keepin with the 175's? Converting to HD8's or HIF's would be a good improvment for power. Of course, the Webbers are the way to go for real power :)

    It's all down to cost. There are some amazing induction systems for V12's available but none are in the budget.

    loosecannon
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    27 Apr 2011 04:24 PM
    I had concerns about water flooding the air cleaners and heat from the exhaust manifolds being sucked into the engine so today I made heat/water shields. Of course, when I get my dream ram air system made, these will get yanked out. Notice also that the throttle linkage has been modified and re-installed and the coil and fuel pressure regulator have been moved to better locations.







    SmokingTires
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    27 Apr 2011 04:33 PM
    I've been readin this thread. And I just have to say, this is such a cool project! And it's great that the engine is keeping with the cars roots. This is such a cool build, and I can't wait to see it at Nationals!
    loosecannon
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    27 Apr 2011 10:46 PM
    SmokingTires wrote:
    I've been readin this thread. And I just have to say, this is such a cool project! And it's great that the engine is keeping with the cars roots. This is such a cool build, and I can't wait to see it at Nationals!

    I just got my issue of Sportscar today and noticed my car made an appearance in an article about Jeff Kiesel, I'm feeling just a touch of pressure now.

    SmokingTires
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    27 Apr 2011 11:10 PM
    Publicity is cool, even on small scale. My car made it as the Feb. main picture on the SCCA calender in STU trim. My goal is to make it again this year in FP trim :)

    loosecannon
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    28 Apr 2011 12:07 AM
    SmokingTires wrote:
    Publicity is cool, even on small scale. My car made it as the Feb. main picture on the SCCA calender in STU trim. My goal is to make it again this year in FP trim :)

    I'm ok with publicity, there are thousands of people watching the build of my car, but I don't want any heightened expectations of it's performance. Let's face it, I took hundreds of unrelated parts and welded them together to form a race car in only 8 months. None of the suspension has been designed or checked on any computer, the car is 450 lbs heaver than it should be, is running a radial tire that has never won Nationals and has probably the heaviest engine at Nationals at 669 lbs. If I get a trophy, it will be a miracle! Just read the Sportscar article to see how many calories have been burned on JK's car, it's no wonder it wins every year.

    cmt52663
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    28 Apr 2011 04:41 AM

    no pressure. it is not the performance potential of the car that has riveted me to this thread, but the vision.

    i hope it's fast, but whether it is a world beater or a bit off the incredible pace of the current class, it will draw crowds and make smiles wherever it goes.

    jdchristianson
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    28 Apr 2011 08:53 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    SmokingTires wrote:
    Publicity is cool, even on small scale. My car made it as the Feb. main picture on the SCCA calender in STU trim. My goal is to make it again this year in FP trim :)

    I'm ok with publicity, there are thousands of people watching the build of my car, but I don't want any heightened expectations of it's performance. Let's face it, I took hundreds of unrelated parts and welded them together to form a race car in only 8 months. None of the suspension has been designed or checked on any computer, the car is 450 lbs heaver than it should be, is running a radial tire that has never won Nationals and has probably the heaviest engine at Nationals at 669 lbs. If I get a trophy, it will be a miracle! Just read the Sportscar article to see how many calories have been burned on JK's car, it's no wonder it wins every year.

    Can't wait to see your car in action. It's going to be a fun ride for sure. There are plenty of us in EM hoping for the trophy miracle, but even with out that all of our car are a real rush to drive. I pretty sure you'll be smiling at the end of each run.

    Jeff Christianson

    47CP
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    28 Apr 2011 09:49 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    SmokingTires wrote:
    Publicity is cool, even on small scale. My car made it as the Feb. main picture on the SCCA calender in STU trim. My goal is to make it again this year in FP trim :)

    I'm ok with publicity, there are thousands of people watching the build of my car, but I don't want any heightened expectations of it's performance. Let's face it, I took hundreds of unrelated parts and welded them together to form a race car in only 8 months. None of the suspension has been designed or checked on any computer, the car is 450 lbs heaver than it should be, is running a radial tire that has never won Nationals and has probably the heaviest engine at Nationals at 669 lbs. If I get a trophy, it will be a miracle! Just read the Sportscar article to see how many calories have been burned on JK's car, it's no wonder it wins every year.

    Speaking from experience you do have some tuning/debug time in front of you, but I think the basics of the project are sound (though the 431 lightening holes make me nervous :)) and it won't take much time to get very competitive. I can't wait to run against you in Lincoln (or wherever).

    Plus, you built the car to what is considered the proper size for EM, so you won't get half the class subtely telling you to take your big car home... :)

    And remember, however fast you go on Hoosiers, bolting on Goodyears will make you 2 seconds faster. :)

    DaveW

    SmokingTires
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    28 Apr 2011 10:01 AM
    47CP wrote:

    And remember, however fast you go on Hoosiers, bolting on Goodyears will make you 2 seconds faster. :)

    DaveW

    Word.

    I bolted the 11.5" Goodyear R250 on my Evo, and didn't event make it a full event. The HUGE American grip ripped my Japanese transmission and transfer case in half!

    jdchristianson
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    28 Apr 2011 07:10 PM
    47CP wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:

    Plus, you built the car to what is considered the proper size for EM, so you won't get half the class subtely telling you to take your big car home... :)

    And remember, however fast you go on Hoosiers, bolting on Goodyears will make you 2 seconds faster. :)

    DaveW

    Nobody wants you to take your big huge monster car home, some of us are just scared that it might crush our spindly little bitty excuse for a car. ; )

    Goodyear's are only 2 seconds faster.........damn I need more than that. : )

    Jeff Christianson


    loosecannon
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    28 Apr 2011 11:32 PM
    I just hope to get in the trophies and maybe win some tires-is that too much to ask? ;)
    jdchristianson
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    29 Apr 2011 07:55 AM

    when is your first event?

    loosecannon
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    29 Apr 2011 08:32 AM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    when is your first event?

    May 14th but I hope to drive it around a parking lot or runway before then

    loosecannon
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    29 Apr 2011 01:57 PM
    You might want to sit down for this but the Lucas ignition in the car has failed. It's not looking good for getting the car running in time for the first event but I am trying to make an MSD unit work-wish me luck.
    cmt52663
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    29 Apr 2011 02:49 PM
    Good luck! I certainly sympathize, and will refrain from offering any "Lord of Darkness" cliche...
    47CP
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    29 Apr 2011 04:58 PM
    I was going to suggest MSD. :)

    DaveW
    gavin
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    29 Apr 2011 10:24 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    You might want to sit down for this but the Lucas ignition in the car has failed.


    Sorry, it had to be done :)

    Gavin

    loosecannon
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    30 Apr 2011 03:03 PM
    Funny how things turn around. I just got a catalog from XKS Unlimited http://store.xks.com/ and they had a Pertronix conversion kit listed for the V12 AND were open Saturdays. I called and the part was on special for $146.00 and is plug and play, it replaces all the problem Jaguar parts. I had it overnight expressed so maybe I will make my dyno appointment after all.
    Autoxevo
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    01 May 2011 08:48 PM
    I just quickly skimmed, so maybe I've missed it, but have you upgraded the starter to a gear reduction unit - 1/3 the weight and way more reliable, cheap too. Also is the radiator designed properly for a dual inlet setup? i.e. dual pass.
    Are you running an oil cooler?
    loosecannon
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    01 May 2011 09:00 PM
    Autoxevo wrote:
    I just quickly skimmed, so maybe I've missed it, but have you upgraded the starter to a gear reduction unit - 1/3 the weight and way more reliable, cheap too. Also is the radiator designed properly for a dual inlet setup? i.e. dual pass.
    Are you running an oil cooler?

    I haven't got a gear reduction starter yet, it seems like a bit of a luxury when I haven't got money for new tires. I have read all the data on dual pass radiators here http://www.bernardembden.com/xjs/ra.../index.htm and mine is not, also because it's an expense I cannot afford right now. I installed the temperature sensor on the drivers side (the hotter of the two sides) and even under the stress of multiple and back to back dyno runs, the water temp never exceeded 200 F and oil 180 F. I am not running the oil cooler, either.

    Autoxevo
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    01 May 2011 09:43 PM
    Dear god man! :) You're going to have overheating problems like no other. I've been working solely on Jaguars for 18 years now, specializing on the classics. That oil cooler is just as important as a properly designed radiator. The Etype oil cooler was somewhat adequate, the XJS one is pretty good. You can get a stock XJS rad that has the dual pass (again, for one side only). Even so, the XJS rad is *just* enough for stock cooling. The valve seats will drop out when they overheat, and these dont like over 200deg at all. I wouldn't run thermostats, but you must run restrictor plates (or gutted thermostats).
    Trust me, a properly designed rad is *way* cheaper than rebuilding the heads.
    Enough of my rant ;) I'm pulling for you and this project, I really am looking forward to seeing this in action!

    Have you got a selection of carb needles yet? Talk to Joe Curto on carb/needle tuning - this guy knows tons and has more needles than a hospital.
    joecurto.com

    Good luck and watch those temp gauges! :)
    p.s. I dont recommend running multi viscosity oil in the carbs. Usually 30wt, ATF or the SU specific oil.
    loosecannon
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    02 May 2011 12:05 AM
    All I know is that the radiator is far bigger than the stock V12 rad and the engine has never overheated even when airflow was poor and the engine under load. Pushing around a car half the weight of the original car may have something to do with it. According to the article I linked to, removing the thermostats is disastrous-I installed some high quality german made low temp thermostats and so far so good. I have another dyno session coming up and hope cooling issues reveal themselves then. I have a mint oil cooler for the car but the stock lines won't reach it and getting new ones made in that massive size is fairly expensive. My local rad shop could probably turn my rad into a dual pass pretty easy but I'll slay that dragon when it reveals itself. Here's a list of things other people have said why my car won't work, I guess I'll add your concerns to the list ;)

    1.The engine will never fit in an MGB
    2.The triangulated 4 link suspension will not work
    3.There isn't enough plenum volume in the new intakes and they will not work
    4.The Ford clutch and GM pressure plate will not work together
    5.The car will be dangerous and undriveable without sway bars
    6.You need bias slicks, not radial slicks to make the car work
    7.The tires you are using will never work because they are meant for a Formula Atlantic
    8.The engine is too heavy and underpowered
    9.The MGB steering rack won't work with the Jaguar suspension
    10.You're going to have overheating problems like no other
    SmokingTires
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    02 May 2011 10:09 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    I have a mint oil cooler for the car but the stock lines won't reach it and getting new ones made in that massive size is fairly expensive.
    Give a call to your local brake wholesale place. Like here in MN we have Brake and Equipment Warehouse. A lot of times they have good connections for people that can make stuff. They had a guy who makes high pressure hoses on the side. He has made us brake hoses, power steering lines, etc. Just and idea, but it's worth a shot.
    47CP
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    02 May 2011 11:06 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    1.The engine will never fit in an MGB
    2.The triangulated 4 link suspension will not work
    3.There isn't enough plenum volume in the new intakes and they will not work
    4.The Ford clutch and GM pressure plate will not work together
    5.The car will be dangerous and undriveable without sway bars
    6.You need bias slicks, not radial slicks to make the car work
    7.The tires you are using will never work because they are meant for a Formula Atlantic
    8.The engine is too heavy and underpowered
    9.The MGB steering rack won't work with the Jaguar suspension
    10.You're going to have overheating problems like no other

    Did you not expect "advise" when you started a build thread and cover every detail on the internet? :)

    It will be interesting to see what really is a problem, what isn't and what comes out of left field. There were things in all 3 categories on my car/build.

    DaveW

    Bullitt2954
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    02 May 2011 02:35 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    1.The engine will never fit in an MGB
    2.The triangulated 4 link suspension will not work
    3.There isn't enough plenum volume in the new intakes and they will not work
    4.The Ford clutch and GM pressure plate will not work together
    5.The car will be dangerous and undriveable without sway bars
    6.You need bias slicks, not radial slicks to make the car work
    7.The tires you are using will never work because they are meant for a Formula Atlantic
    8.The engine is too heavy and underpowered
    9.The MGB steering rack won't work with the Jaguar suspension
    10.You're going to have overheating problems like no other

    1. Well, technically it only "fit" in the part of the car that wasn't actually MGB - you had to dispose of a LOT of MGB to wedge it in there....

    2. Of course it won't work! Triangles = 3 sides, 4-Link = 4 sides! 3+4=7-sided suspension!

    3. Not unless you turn it up to "11". THEN you'll have enough Volume.

    4. Ford's and Chevy's don't have the same DNA - it's like puttin' an Elephant Heart in a Baboon....

    5. That's just silly! Any bar that makes the car "sway" more would naturally make it MORE-dangerous, not LESS!

    6. Bias against anyone is bad, Mmm-Kay?

    7. Hah! That's what they know! I happen to know that Canada's nowhere NEAR the Atlantic! And I'd daresay you haven't had formula since you were an itty-bitty baby.

    8. They haven't seen that 5-cylinder Radial Aircraft-engine in an MR2 yet, have they?

    9. See #4 above. And you've got to deal with Lucas Electrics to boot!

    10. Well, DUH! Canada is up-higher on the Map - that's closer to the Sun, so naturally it's gonna be hotter up there. Take that thing down to Texas if you want it to run cool ....

    loosecannon
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    02 May 2011 04:24 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:
    1.The engine will never fit in an MGB
    2.The triangulated 4 link suspension will not work
    3.There isn't enough plenum volume in the new intakes and they will not work
    4.The Ford clutch and GM pressure plate will not work together
    5.The car will be dangerous and undriveable without sway bars
    6.You need bias slicks, not radial slicks to make the car work
    7.The tires you are using will never work because they are meant for a Formula Atlantic
    8.The engine is too heavy and underpowered
    9.The MGB steering rack won't work with the Jaguar suspension
    10.You're going to have overheating problems like no other

    1. Well, technically it only "fit" in the part of the car that wasn't actually MGB - you had to dispose of a LOT of MGB to wedge it in there....

    2. Of course it won't work! Triangles = 3 sides, 4-Link = 4 sides! 3+4=7-sided suspension!

    3. Not unless you turn it up to "11". THEN you'll have enough Volume.

    4. Ford's and Chevy's don't have the same DNA - it's like puttin' an Elephant Heart in a Baboon....

    5. That's just silly! Any bar that makes the car "sway" more would naturally make it MORE-dangerous, not LESS!

    6. Bias against anyone is bad, Mmm-Kay?

    7. Hah! That's what they know! I happen to know that Canada's nowhere NEAR the Atlantic! And I'd daresay you haven't had formula since you were an itty-bitty baby.

    8. They haven't seen that 5-cylinder Radial Aircraft-engine in an MR2 yet, have they?

    9. See #4 above. And you've got to deal with Lucas Electrics to boot!

    10. Well, DUH! Canada is up-higher on the Map - that's closer to the Sun, so naturally it's gonna be hotter up there. Take that thing down to Texas if you want it to run cool ....

    Wow, somebody had some extra time today ;) Seriously, I'm not bothered by any of it and I know how forums work. There is suprisingly little criticism considering how crazy this project is. Whenever anybody brings up a potential problem, I think about it and see if there is a solution that I have the time and money to do and if I don't, at least I'm prepared for the problem. Some problems have been avoided by people asking questions or pointing things out so I don't mind the comments, although I hope some people are very wrong ;)

    loosecannon
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    02 May 2011 04:52 PM
    All I could do today was get the shifter boots installed:

    piknockout
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    03 May 2011 09:44 AM
    Slacker.



    :-p
    loosecannon
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    03 May 2011 03:14 PM
    We tossed around many ideas for graphics and wanted something unique and tied into the Britishness of the car or the Jaguar V12. Briget sketched out the leaping Jaguar on the side of the car and it occured to her that the Jaguar is also called a Panther, and it wasn't a big leap to "Pink Panther" so here is the graphics of the car. There are a few details missing but you get the idea.










    SmokingTires
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    03 May 2011 03:32 PM
    FREAKIN SWEET!

    I love it!
    loosecannon
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    03 May 2011 05:26 PM
    Some more graphics on:




    cmt52663
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    03 May 2011 06:20 PM
    Absolutely bloody brilliant.
    Bullitt2954
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    03 May 2011 06:56 PM
    HaHa! I Frickin' LOVE it!

    Now all you need is a blind-man with a minky....

    loosecannon
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    04 May 2011 10:53 PM
    The car was too low for my ramps so I had to call in a flatdeck. It was rainy but I like the way the car looks in daylight.




    cmt52663
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    05 May 2011 04:24 AM
    me too...

    thus endeth chapter 1

    and beginneth the 2nd chapter - yes?

    Pardonnez-moi - does your dog bite?

    but first - to you and to Christine - do please take another bow

    and thanks again for letting me follow this build all winter, as it has given me joy

    Kindest regards,

    Charlie
    loosecannon
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    05 May 2011 03:50 PM
    Had my second dyno session today. With no other changes, the new intakes made about 30 more hp and with some timing advance the car made 290 hp at 6023 rpm and 288.5 ft/lbs at 3765 rpm. The hp peak is 600 rpm higher and the torque peak is 400 rpm lower than before. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffuksaN2LDI
    jdchristianson
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    08 May 2011 12:45 PM

    Fun graphics for sure, I love it!

    gbeaird
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    09 May 2011 01:22 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    4. Ford's and Chevy's don't have the same DNA - it's like puttin' an Elephant Heart in a Baboon....

    Heh, like putting a pig valve in a human!! Never work!!!!

    Gene Beaird,
    Pearland, Texas

    loosecannon
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    09 May 2011 04:42 PM
    gbeaird wrote:

    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    4. Ford's and Chevy's don't have the same DNA - it's like puttin' an Elephant Heart in a Baboon....

    Heh, like putting a pig valve in a human!! Never work!!!!

    Gene Beaird,

    Pearland, Texas

    Isn't that what Carroll Shelby has?

    loosecannon
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    10 May 2011 01:19 AM
    Today was corner balance and alignment day. I put the car on the scales with 170 lbs in the drivers seat to simulate my race weight and pressed the cross weight button on the scales. I had a bit of wedge with 49% of the weight on the left front and right rear tires, and 51% on the right front and left rear tires. This was easily corrected by shortening the pushrods on the right front and left rear tires, which reduced the amount of weight they were pushing down. Here's a picture of the results:



    Save the calculations, my total weight is 2353 including driver and the balance is 53% front, 47% rear. Once that was done, it was on to the alignment. The Jaguar front suspension resembles a typical 70's GM front suspension in that you just have to add shims to the top A-arm to get the desired camber and caster. I added shims to each side to get -2.17 degrees camber on both sides. Then I turned the tie rods to get a total toe of .14". The rear suspension needed just half a turn on the passenger side bars to get it squared up with the front. I'm ready for some autocrossing.



    racerX_244
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    10 May 2011 01:21 PM
    so awesome, great work. I love checking in on this thread!
    John V
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    10 May 2011 08:24 PM
    Wow. Heavier than I would have expected. What's your min weight?
    loosecannon
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    10 May 2011 11:45 PM
    John V wrote:

    Wow. Heavier than I would have expected. What's your min weight?

    Hmm, I seem to be answering this question a lot. Minimum weight for me in EM is 1800 lbs, Jeff Kiesel weighs 1850 lbs and Bob Tunnel came in 2nd at 2550 lbs IIRC. I could almost make minimum weight if I wanted the car to be a one trick pony. I could have gone with smaller roll bar tubing, brakes, wheels and differential but all at the sacrifice of using the car for track days as well. The engine weighs 669 lbs bare, about 200-250 lbs heavier than the more powerful LS1. However, I think the V12 is cooler and the hundreds of thousands of pageviews, website hits and stories written about the car seem to back that up. I doubt there would be much interest in the car if I had a turbo 4 in it.

    47CP
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    11 May 2011 09:43 AM
    Get used to answering the questiom, trust me. :)

    The V-12 is very cool!

    DaveW
    EM- 2313#
    cmt52663
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    11 May 2011 09:51 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    John V wrote:

    Wow. Heavier than I would have expected. What's your min weight?

    Hmm, I seem to be answering this question a lot. Minimum weight for me in EM is 1800 lbs, Jeff Kiesel weighs 1850 lbs and Bob Tunnel came in 2nd at 2550 lbs IIRC. I could almost make minimum weight if I wanted the car to be a one trick pony. I could have gone with smaller roll bar tubing, brakes, wheels and differential but all at the sacrifice of using the car for track days as well. The engine weighs 669 lbs bare, about 200-250 lbs heavier than the more powerful LS1. However, I think the V12 is cooler and the hundreds of thousands of pageviews, website hits and stories written about the car seem to back that up. I doubt there would be much interest in the car if I had a turbo 4 in it.

    Indeed you would not.

    This effort is to anglophiles second only to the nuptials of Prince William. May both this lovely bit of art/engineering and their marriage last a long long time...

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    11 May 2011 12:10 PM
    I am definitely going to try and make the car work with the V12 and if it's as bulletproof as everyone says, I have room to get more power out of it. That being said, I am a competitive guy and someday may have to concede defeat and swap in a lighter motor. Finances are tight, though-next season is up in the air.
    loosecannon
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    11 May 2011 12:10 PM
    repost, sorry
    Bullitt2954
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    11 May 2011 12:46 PM
    You could always drill holes in the engine-block to lighten it.....

    loosecannon
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    11 May 2011 01:03 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    You could always drill holes in the engine-block to lighten it.....



    That has the double benefit of also draining all that heavy and unneccesary oil and coolant ;)

    Bullitt2954
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    11 May 2011 03:40 PM
    Win-Win Situation, as I see it!

    jdchristianson
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    11 May 2011 10:11 PM

    You must be getting pumped, only a matter of day till the first event. Finally a chance to burn some rubber off this thing. Good luck!

    loosecannon
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    11 May 2011 11:21 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    You must be getting pumped, only a matter of day till the first event. Finally a chance to burn some rubber off this thing. Good luck!

    Yes, only a couple of days from my first event and the organizers said I could bring the car to course set up on Friday and do a shake down test. Today I zip tied wires together, wired up the shift light and checked over all fasteners-I think I'm ready.

    SmokingTires
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    12 May 2011 12:06 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    Today I zip tied wires together....

    Oh great! I was worried this wouldn't be ready in time. Can't be a real race car if you don't have zip ties holding multiple important things in place.

    30+ made my battery mount for an event once :D

    47CP
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    12 May 2011 10:09 AM
    Very cool, have a good weekend!
    loosecannon
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    12 May 2011 10:53 AM
    47CP wrote:

    Very cool, have a good weekend!

    Thanks :) I hope it warms up a little because I have no heat or wipers-although the firewall and floor get pretty warm so maybe it wouldn't be so bad ;) I'm excited and can't wait to attack the course and hopefully get FTD.

    cmt52663
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    12 May 2011 03:19 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    47CP wrote:

    Very cool, have a good weekend!

    Thanks :) I hope it warms up a little because I have no heat or wipers-although the firewall and floor get pretty warm so maybe it wouldn't be so bad ;) I'm excited and can't wait to attack the course and hopefully get FTD.

    So why aren't you running in Stock then?

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    12 May 2011 03:55 PM
    cmt52663 wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:

    47CP wrote:



    Very cool, have a good weekend!

    Thanks :) I hope it warms up a little because I have no heat or wipers-although the firewall and floor get pretty warm so maybe it wouldn't be so bad ;) I'm excited and can't wait to attack the course and hopefully get FTD.

    So why aren't you running in Stock then?

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    I have been running Stock class for years but I love dedicated race cars because they are uncompromising and dedicated to one purpose. I wanted one of my own and decided to build one. It would have been cheaper to buy somebody elses project or race karts but not nearly as fun. The first few and last few events locally are kind of chilly so those are the only ones I will be miserable at.

    cmt52663
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    12 May 2011 04:25 PM

    My apologies for oblique humor - I merely intended to recall that my own MGB was also challenged with regard to heat and a clean windshield.

    Cheers,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    13 May 2011 09:54 PM
    I had a chance to drive the car on the old airport runway we use for our events, the problem was it was raining and there was standing water everywhere. I decided that any test is better than no test and went for it. Even running old slicks in the rain and near freezing temps (it was actually snowing only 15 minutes drive away) the car felt fantastic. It had no weird handling characteristics, was completely neutral and didn't squirm when going over some rather large bumps or through deep puddles. I know that the conditions will not reveal a lot of things but at least I know what rain set-up to use ;) It did reveal that the lsd needs to be tightened up a bit because it spun the inside tire too easily, and that there is a lot of engine braking-when I lift off the gas, the tires went into a skid, but the car didn't want to come around on me. I thought the acceleration was a little soft for 290 hp and 2300 lbs but in retrospect, maybe the tires were just spinning? Here is the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y-5hNepXhE

    cmt52663
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    14 May 2011 06:28 AM

    Considering the innovative nature of the suspension, that seems to me to be a very encouraging experience. I do recall speaking with you at Lincoln last year, at which point another gentleman was expressing his views regarding the viability of the spring/shock package. It would appear at least initially that his skepticism was not well aimed. I am delighted.

    Cheers,

    Charlie

    loosecannon
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    15 May 2011 02:14 AM
    Well, I think the Pink Panther performed better than expected. The handling is awesome although the amount of engine braking when you chop the throttle is startling, the rear tires just stop moving as quick as the car. I didnt find the unassisted steering difficult but Briget did. The power was way down and we think it is fuel pressure related. The regulator would not hold a steady 3 psi, it would fluctuate between 0 and 7 psi. Then it developed a previously unknown coolant and oil leak and that's why we only did two runs each. Another weird thing was after a couple of runs, the engine would stall when we hit the brakes, even with the clutch pushed in. Perhaps related to the fuel pressure problem. But , as I said, it handles far, far better than expected so it's going to be awesome when I sort the engine out. Here is the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_g1JsBUA32o
    loosecannon
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    16 May 2011 01:43 PM
    We sprung a coolant leak and it was the Jaguar sensor in the middle of this water pump housing. Somebody along the way tried silicone and safety wire to fix it but I found a better way:



    I took the sensor out and was left with a nice flat area, perfect for drilling some holes and bolting on a plate:



    I drilled and tapped some holes:



    And bolted on an aluminum plate to keep the coolant in

    Bullitt2954
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    16 May 2011 04:23 PM

    You've been making all this effort to drill holes right & left - then the Jaguar Factory provides you with a perfectly usable weight-reducing hole - and you go & fill it in!

    ;^p~



    loosecannon
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    17 May 2011 01:24 PM
    I have never been able to use a timing light on the engine because I didn't see any timing marks on anything. But while I was replacing the oil pan gasket, I spotted this plate with timing marks on it right at the bottom of the engine. I guess Jaguar technicians have to put the car on a hoist to time the engine?



    I used a dial indicator on cylinder #1 to get the engine at exactly top dead centre:



    Then I used a piece of hanger wire to make a new timing indicator and cut a notch in the pulley. Now I can use the advance/retard display on the timing light to find out what the timing is.

    SmokingTires
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    17 May 2011 01:43 PM
    Are you running manual or boosted brakes? If your running boosted brakes, dying could be a symptom of low vacuum. When you use the brakes, it depleats the vacuum reserve and draws more. If you had a vacuum leak, it could cause your power loss (running lean) and stalling issue.
    loosecannon
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    17 May 2011 02:24 PM
    SmokingTires wrote:

    Are you running manual or boosted brakes? If your running boosted brakes, dying could be a symptom of low vacuum. When you use the brakes, it depleats the vacuum reserve and draws more. If you had a vacuum leak, it could cause your power loss (running lean) and stalling issue.

    Manual brakes. A few people have suggested that the problem is fuel related, like the float level is too low or the fuel pressure loss caused low float levels. I tend to agree because it happens randomly, just like the fuel pressure fluctuates randomly. I have an Aeromotive regulator coming and I'll put that in and raise the idle speed a little. I am also considering a high volume fuel pump because the car seems to really use a lot of fuel. I did 6 dyno pulls, two runs up to 75 mph or so and two 60 second autocross runs and burned through 5 gallons of fuel.

    47CP
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    17 May 2011 02:50 PM
    I echo what Bob W said on the DMEM List, it sounds a lot like a low or high float level on a Holley Carb. I have no idea how that relates to your carbs though.

    That fuel consumption seems high, though it is hard to judge. I only have a 3.5gallon tank and two drivers can get through a heat without fueling. Oddly enough, when I switched to this motor (660+hp) from the old 375hp one, I used less fuel, presumably becuase you spend less time at WOT. That motor seemed to average about .6 gallon per run pretty regularly.

    Glad you got through the first event so well!

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    17 May 2011 04:25 PM
    47CP wrote:

    I echo what Bob W said on the DMEM List, it sounds a lot like a low or high float level on a Holley Carb. I have no idea how that relates to your carbs though.



    That fuel consumption seems high, though it is hard to judge. I only have a 3.5gallon tank and two drivers can get through a heat without fueling. Oddly enough, when I switched to this motor (660+hp) from the old 375hp one, I used less fuel, presumably becuase you spend less time at WOT. That motor seemed to average about .6 gallon per run pretty regularly.



    Glad you got through the first event so well!



    DaveW

    There may be a relation between the fuel pressure and fuel consumption. I was digging around online about Stromberg carbs and the consensus is that anything over 2.5 psi fuel pressure results in forcing fuel past the float. During the event, the sidepipes never got hot enough where you couldn't hold your hand on them so maybe the car has just been running super rich all this time. I'll adjust down to 2 psi and try another dyno session next week if I get all the parts back in time. At some point I may just tire of carbs and try to flip to EFI.

    47CP
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    17 May 2011 04:49 PM
    Carburators are very binary in thier operation. They either work just fine, or are on fire. For me, there never seems to be middle ground...:)

    Do your plugs indicate rich?

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    17 May 2011 05:27 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Carburators are very binary in thier operation. They either work just fine, or are on fire. For me, there never seems to be middle ground...:)



    Do your plugs indicate rich?



    DaveW

    I only had the one plug out to check TDC and it was black. I was just looking at the universal EFI kits at Summit Racing and $1700 will get a programmable one with wide band O2 sensor and everything needed to make it go, I would still have to build a manifold for 12 cylinders and try to get the runners sort of equal in length, which is daunting. I could also put a later V12 efi on the car with a standalone ecu but that sounds like something that will take a long time to develop.

    47CP
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    17 May 2011 05:54 PM
    There are a lot of expensive gotcha's on EFI. I have been wanting to do it since I put this motor in the CP car in 2006, but having to build a new car in the middle of that pushed it back again.

    I figure it is at least a $3k bill by the time you do everything, even with a Megaquirt. Injectors, Sensors, plumbing, fuel pump, etc all add up pretty quickly.

    DaveW
    IanF
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    17 May 2011 05:58 PM
    I would concur about reducing fuel pressure. SU's and Z-S sometimes have trouble with US sourced electric fuel pumps w/o a regulator to really bring down the pressure. 2 psi sounds about right. Much more and you start pumping fuel up past the needle/jet. I have enough trouble getting a pair of SU's to run reasonably well - the car runs, but I still think the needles are wrong (runs rich). When I look under the bonnets of Jaguars and see quad Z-S's, I get shivers...
    loosecannon
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    18 May 2011 11:29 PM
    Looking at the pictures from the first autocross, the Pink Panther has a little too much body roll so I am installing a front sway bar. And before anybody suggests that it will just understeer, remember that I have an adjustable rear sway bar and can change the motion ratio of the rocker suspension and stiffen it up considerably. I used some aluminum stock and angle pieces to make mounts and brackets to hold a stock MGB-GT front sway bar to the new frame and suspension.



    And I replaced the soft rubber bushings with aluminum ones:



    Here it is installed on the car:



    And I made the drop links out of .75" square tube with nuts welded on to hold the heim joints:



    There is a lot more detail on my blog
    loosecannon
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    20 May 2011 12:27 AM
    I think I solved a laundry list of problems today:
    1.Spinning inside tire-Took the diff to Asperline on Monday and they found the LSD clutch discs to be worn out. Discs were replaced and shimmed for minimum slippage.
    2.Engine running a little too warm-Took rad to shop to get converted to dual pass style rad. Now coolant is forced to go across the cooling surface instead of taking a shortcut down side tank.
    3.Power loss-Installed Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator and changed oil in carb from straight 30 to synthetic ATF so the dampers can open more quickly-seems to have worked, throttle response is improved.
    4.Coolant overflow-Purchased Moroso Coolant overflow resevoir from www.fasttoys.net (also got pressure regulator from them).
    5.Potential understeer from front sway bar installation-adding front sway bar stiffened front suspension frequency from 2.19 Hz to 2.44 Hz. I changed the rear motion ratio from 1.42:1 to 1.37:1, and this changed the rear suspension frequency from 2.53 Hz to 2.65 Hz. I still have the rear sway bar to adjust balance.
    6.Unknown timing-My previous mod to the timing marks was tested today. Using a timing light, I was able to determine that the car has 10 degrees initial advance and it's maxed out to 40 degrees by 3000 rpm-coincidently, this is exactly what the guys on the Jag forum say that my engine should have for performance.
    loosecannon
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    21 May 2011 11:28 AM
    I may need an oil cooler but have no good place to mount one, so I built these radiator clamps out of steel and will use them as templates to get some aluminum ones built. They clamp onto the rad and hold the cooler behind the lower spoiler opening.










    loosecannon
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    27 May 2011 06:08 PM
    I had a very bumpy abandoned runway to test out my changes the other day. The new front sway bar and changes to the rear motion ratio seem to have done exactly what was expected-there is much less body roll and quicker reacting handling but it's also less forgiving. I went from full soft to full hard on high speed compression and the car felt most controlled somewhere in the middle. I tried stiffening low speed compression on the back only and the car went from planted to tail happy pretty quickly. Full stiff on the rebound seemed to reduce traction but adjusting to the middle felt right. I suspect the whole set-up is just a little too stiff for the very bumpy surface but I'm pretty optimistic for Nationals. I am concerned about the lack of traction off the line and under hard braking. The car has 93% anti-squat and I can raise or lower that with an adjustment of the top bars on the 4 link, I think I want to try lowering the AS number to improve braking performance. I also have an oil leak and the back of the rear spoiler and expansion chamber of the diffuser seem to have sucked up every drop of it-a good sign that the aero is working, I think. And it looks like I will have to vacuum out the interior of the car after every event because it fills up with small rocks kicked up by the slicks. Here are a couple of short videos, pardon the audio, I forgot to plug in a mic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yqpc0-8k8U http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZPos62DFw0
    loosecannon
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    28 May 2011 11:02 PM
    I needed to fill the gap between the floor and the diffuser so I took a sheet of aluminum and made room for the lower bars and diff to poke through and put it on. Here is the before:



    And after:

    loosecannon
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    30 May 2011 09:43 AM
    The Pink Panther's second event went much better than the first. The new front sway bar, rear suspension adjustment and undertray all worked very well plus the car didn't leak any oil or coolant this time. Perhaps I let the car idle for too long because it ran a little warm on my last run and it tends to stall under braking when the coolant gets above 200 degrees. I actually had time to fiddle with shock settings and landed up being full soft on high speed compression, a few clicks harder on low speed compression and around the middle of rebound damping. I think I can improve turn-in with giving the car a little more toe-out and I am going to adjust the rear 4-link for better braking but otherwise I am thrilled with the handling, which I found to be very much like an S2000. The engine still isn't making the power it made on the dyno so I must find those lost ponies somewhere. Here is 4 really shaky videos of my runs and one really good one, all with data included:
    run 1 hit cones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kpZxeVvSDM
    run 2 hit cones http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ji-YT_F0VI0
    run 3 clean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52EOqTlfAlg
    run 4 stalled on course http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lONJQIWQTp8
    best run with different camera http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKU46c_HFqI
    loosecannon
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    30 May 2011 11:49 PM
    At the last autocross, I was very disappointed with the power of the car. The dyno said 290 hp and 288 ft/lbs but my butt dyno said it was a lot less than that. I even called the dyno guy and questioned the accuracy of the equipment. Well, anybody familiar with Stromberg or SU carbs will look at the pictures below and know immediately what the problem was-a torn diaphram. The diaphram raises and lowers a sleeve inside the carb, allowing more or less air in. This diaphram was ripped and so the sleeve wouldn't allow any more than a trickle of air into the 3 cylinders fed by this carb.




    I also discovered a big ignition timing problem. I had purchased a new cap and rotor from a "Top Seller" on E-Bay and I should have known the quality of the parts was poor when the rotor just snapped in half when I tried to install it. Well, the cap recently failed as well so I went back to the original Lucas distributor cap. I'm guessing that the knock-off cap and factory cap didn't share the exact orientation on the distributor because the timing was suddenly 20 degrees too advanced. This now makes me question the quality of the thermostats I purchased from the same seller because even with the oil cooler hooked up, the coolant temperature is too high.
    loosecannon
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    02 Jun 2011 01:44 PM
    The engine has been running a little warmer than I would like, even with the addition of an oil cooler and dual pass radiator. A Jaguar technician named Norman Lutz figured out that that coolant inside the V12's was not evenly distributed. He found a way of altering the flow using restrictors in the external coolant manifolds. I made made the mods last night and now the temperature, at least when the car is idling, seems to stay under control. I can't say for sure if the mods are what did it because I also found an airlock in the cooling system and was able to add more coolant. Here are the manifolds without and with the restrictors:




    loosecannon
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    04 Jun 2011 09:43 PM
    I have bad news: I have done everything I can to cure the power and overheating problem with this V12. I have done all the recommended things to keep it cool and have tested or replaced all the things I can afford to do to make the power I need it to make. But after testing today, I realized that I have failed at both things. It still does not have the acceleration that 290 hp in a 2300 lb car should have and it reached 220 degrees on a cold morning and wouldn't cool off even with water sprayed on the rad. If it was powerful, I would invest in an oversized custom radiator and hopefully cure the problem. If it ran cool, I might invest in new cams/valve springs to get more power out of it. But as it is, throwing money at one problem to still have the other is more than I am willing do right now.
    So, I know there are thousands of people that follow the progress of this car, and many of you really want to see the Pink Panther at Nationals. To do this, I am going to need help. If anybody has a suitable replacement engine that they are willing to donate, lend or sell at a rock bottom price, I am willing to save a co-drive at the 2011 Solo Nationals in exchange. A suitable engine would be another V12 (carbs or EFI), GM or Ford V8 that is known to be healthy and strong. I don't want to fabricate new mounts and exhaust, purchase a bellhousing, clutch and pressure plate just to find that an engine can barely wheeze out 200 hp at the wheels. A generous fan of the car has already offered a mildly modified Ford 5.0 for no cost, but I have my doubts that it will make the power I need. Nobody is more disappointed than I am that I can't run this engine in the car. I have been wanting to do something great with it for the last 26 years but that is just not going to happen.
    If you are willing to help me get to Nationals, e-mail me marksawatsky at gmail dot com
    lowside67
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    05 Jun 2011 03:41 AM
    Not sure about a 5.0L but a bone stock LS1 will make 300whp pretty easily with a good set of headers and exhaust and should be able to be had for quite cheap. Mine was sourced locally in Vancouver for $1500 with ECU, complete, ready to run.

    Mark
    loosecannon
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    05 Jun 2011 08:58 AM
    lowside67 wrote:

    Not sure about a 5.0L but a bone stock LS1 will make 300whp pretty easily with a good set of headers and exhaust and should be able to be had for quite cheap. Mine was sourced locally in Vancouver for $1500 with ECU, complete, ready to run.



    Mark

    I looked into an LS1 but the wiring harness that I need to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car is $1600.00 by itself, plus the custom bellhousing/flywheel/pressure plate to mate to my T5.

    CHRISFP78
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    05 Jun 2011 12:23 PM

    Can I give you a little advice on the cooling problem? Looking at the photos it looks like you need to work on the ducting from the front of the car to the front of the radiator. What is happening is that the air coming in the front of the car is taking the path of least resistance and going around the radiator rather than thru it. You need to get some aluminum .020-.030 aluminum sheet and fabricate ducting that seals against the front of the radiator and goes to the openings in front. You do not need much of an opening in front. What you have in place is fine. I ran a radiator that was half the size of the one you are running with ducting in place and it ran plenty cool enough. It was a 300 hp at the wheels motor with a 14:1 compression ratio.

    As far as power goes, you need to work on the exhaust headers put some good (expensive) burns collectors on it fabricate a more direct intake intake for it, get fuel injection on it (megga squirt) and fabricate a cool air intake for it.

    Hey it's just money.

    loosecannon
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    05 Jun 2011 01:45 PM
    CHRISFP78 wrote:

    Can I give you a little advice on the cooling problem? Looking at the photos it looks like you need to work on the ducting from the front of the car to the front of the radiator. What is happening is that the air coming in the front of the car is taking the path of least resistance and going around the radiator rather than thru it. You need to  get some aluminum .020-.030 aluminum sheet and fabricate ducting that seals against the front of the radiator and goes to the openings in front. You do not need much of an opening in front. What you have in place is fine. I ran a radiator that was half the size of the one you are running with ducting in place and it ran plenty cool enough. It was a 300 hp at the wheels motor with a 14:1 compression ratio.

     

    As far as power goes, you need to work on the exhaust headers put some good (expensive) burns collectors on it fabricate a more direct intake intake for it, get fuel injection on it (megga squirt) and fabricate a cool air intake for it.

    Hey it's just money.

     

    That is an easy thing to do and I will try that this week, but it doesn't explain why the engine runs hot at idle. I am going to do more to make sure I don't have an airlock
    Autoxevo
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    06 Jun 2011 01:12 AM
    Do your thermos have the jiggle valve? If not there should at least be an 1/8" hole drilled in the top - helps remove air. Still suggest gutting the thermos. Also, the stock rad has a bleed screw on the top left, very common place to have air that wont come out. (must bleed an XJS there) If the top of the rad is the highest part of the cooling system it's very likely to have air pocket.

    Also have you had the water pump off? - common for the timing cover behind the pump impeller to corrode, that will cause cavitation at idle (and very low flow). I've even seen the impeller tips corroded off. I've fixed a few timing covers with JB weld lol.

    I have F.I. intakes you can have (cover shipping), not sure what year they are yet, need to pull them out and check...

    I want this to work! An American v8 swap has been done to death and shows no style!! If you wanted something different do a turbo 4G63 :)

    At worst the block could be plugged. I'd pull the coolant block plug and see if anything comes out.

    There's a guy up here that took the F.I. intakes and cut and welded them to accept 2 4 barrel carbs in the center of the block, was really cool looking. (was a V12 in a vintage wood boat) I think the Stromburgs are just too slow, would be nice to have carbs with a throttle plate and accelerator jet, really hard for the Strombergs to have snappy response without one :( nothing you can really do about that with British carbs even if you got HD8's, only option would be the F.I. with the dual throttle body mod on each intake.

    If you have an original Lucas dist cap and an aftermarket one, notice the weight difference! The original Lucas ones are much heavier. I have NOT found a good replacement cap yet, but at all cost stay away from cheep ones. I dont really replace caps anymore, just try and clean them and hope their not cracked :(

    If you wanted to try another block, get a late 80's H.E. block - better heads. There's also a 6.0L available (late 90's) I have one, but it's being turned into a table :)
    CHRISFP78
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    06 Jun 2011 01:25 AM
    loosecannon wrote:

    CHRISFP78 wrote:

    Can I give you a little advice on the cooling problem? Looking at the photos it looks like you need to work on the ducting from the front of the car to the front of the radiator. What is happening is that the air coming in the front of the car is taking the path of least resistance and going around the radiator rather than thru it. You need to get some aluminum .020-.030 aluminum sheet and fabricate ducting that seals against the front of the radiator and goes to the openings in front. You do not need much of an opening in front. What you have in place is fine. I ran a radiator that was half the size of the one you are running with ducting in place and it ran plenty cool enough. It was a 300 hp at the wheels motor with a 14:1 compression ratio.

    As far as power goes, you need to work on the exhaust headers put some good (expensive) burns collectors on it fabricate a more direct intake intake for it, get fuel injection on it (megga squirt) and fabricate a cool air intake for it.

    Hey it's just money.

    That is an easy thing to do and I will try that this week, but it doesn't explain why the engine runs hot at idle. I am going to do more to make sure I don't have an airlock

    Install a port at the highest point of the cooling system. That's what I did on my FP car to bleed all the air out of it.

    Trust me it will help a lot.

    loosecannon
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    06 Jun 2011 01:38 AM
    Autoxevo wrote:

    Do your thermos have the jiggle valve? If not there should at least be an 1/8" hole drilled in the top - helps remove air. Still suggest gutting the thermos. Also, the stock rad has a bleed screw on the top left, very common place to have air that wont come out. (must bleed an XJS there) If the top of the rad is the highest part of the cooling system it's very likely to have air pocket.



    Also have you had the water pump off? - common for the timing cover behind the pump impeller to corrode, that will cause cavitation at idle (and very low flow). I've even seen the impeller tips corroded off. I've fixed a few timing covers with JB weld lol.



    I have F.I. intakes you can have (cover shipping), not sure what year they are yet, need to pull them out and check...



    I want this to work! An American v8 swap has been done to death and shows no style!! If you wanted something different do a turbo 4G63 :)



    At worst the block could be plugged. I'd pull the coolant block plug and see if anything comes out.



    There's a guy up here that took the F.I. intakes and cut and welded them to accept 2 4 barrel carbs in the center of the block, was really cool looking. (was a V12 in a vintage wood boat) I think the Stromburgs are just too slow, would be nice to have carbs with a throttle plate and accelerator jet, really hard for the Strombergs to have snappy response without one :( nothing you can really do about that with British carbs even if you got HD8's, only option would be the F.I. with the dual throttle body mod on each intake.



    If you have an original Lucas dist cap and an aftermarket one, notice the weight difference! The original Lucas ones are much heavier. I have NOT found a good replacement cap yet, but at all cost stay away from cheep ones. I dont really replace caps anymore, just try and clean them and hope their not cracked :(



    If you wanted to try another block, get a late 80's H.E. block - better heads. There's also a 6.0L available (late 90's) I have one, but it's being turned into a table :)

    yes, they have the jiggle valves, I double checked. I also had the thought today that my water pump may be bad and am going to pull it off this week to get a look. Do you have any other efi parts? I am using only Lucas cap and rotors from now on, they are abviously better than the knock off stuff. I am going to be trying a few things this week to solve the power and overheating problem, I'm desperate.

    loosecannon
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    06 Jun 2011 12:59 PM
    Update: I did a leakdown test on the engine today and it is 5% on all cylinders on the drivers side (B side) and I ran out of time to do the passenger side. I noticed a mechanical knocking sound that I hadn't heard before and using a stethascope didn't reveal the source. The noise is loudest on the drivers side valve cover and isn't loud on the block or top of the heads so I don't think it's piston/rod related. I think maybe it's something to do with the timing chain so I'm going to pull both heads off this week in order to check the cooling passages, valves, valve springs, cams and timing chain. I will be taking pictures as I go so keep checking this thread. Advice from knowledgable people is welcome.
    Autoxevo
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    07 Jun 2011 05:32 AM
    Do your thermos have this plate?



    It blocks off the bypass when the thermo opens. I wonder if they are fully blocking off the hole. If it was my racecar I'd consider deleting the bypass (pipe that comes out the top of the water pump to the thermo housings). Water only flows through this pipe when the thermos are closed. You could block them off with brass pipe plugs and I would consider plugging the outlet on top of the water pump (maybe use a freeze plug?), otherwise the pipe could become a large air pocket. I've never tried this, but any water escaping through the bypass is well, bypassing the rad. You'd have to have gutted thermos to do this mod since there wouldn’t be any flow when cold.

    Check the valve clearance. If you pull the cam, take the tappets off each valve and make sure the valve shim rocks on the valve stem and not resting on the spring retainer. (dont mix them and dont flip them)

    Be prepared for the heads to be stuck on the studs :( It's common to go through a whole can of penetrating oil and days soaking.
    loosecannon
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    07 Jun 2011 09:33 AM
    I pulled the oil pan off and found a thrust washer staring up at me from the bottom of the pan.




    Further investigation revealed the cause. The input shaft on the transmission was pushing the crank forward with enough force that the crankshaft ground itself through one of the thrust washers, allowing the one on the opposite side to fall out. Look carefully at this picture and you can see the groove worn in the crank (left arrow) where a thrust washer used to be, and can just make out what is left of the thrust washer poking out (right arrow).





    The crank now has a deep groove where it's not supposed to and all the crank and rod bearings are shot.




    The question is: do I buy another engine or replace the crank and bearings on this one? This may or may not have been the cause for overheating and low power but I won't know until it's fixed and there could still be other issues like head gaskets, timing chain, etc. Any other engine I buy may have it's own problems. The cost is about the same for fixing the crank/bearings or buying another engine.
    cmt52663
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    07 Jun 2011 11:35 AM

    damned either way, as you know. but I for one am really glad that you are seriously considering staying with a V12, and I hope you are heartened at the expertise that is now being offered in support of this brilliant and creative effort.

    I'd take the devil I know - if for no other reason because of how that motor came to you (but I am a sentimental person, and ignorant too...).

    Kind regards,

    Charlie

    Bullitt2954
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    07 Jun 2011 12:58 PM
    I vote for rebuild the one you have, many of the same reason Charlie (cmt52663) gives.

    Did you ever have the engine apart before now? (aside from tappet-covers, intake, etc.)

    loosecannon
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    07 Jun 2011 01:13 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    I vote for rebuild the one you have, many of the same reason Charlie (cmt52663) gives.



    Did you ever have the engine apart before now? (aside from tappet-covers, intake, etc.)



    No, I never had it apart because nothing leaked, smoked or sounded funny and the oil pressure was good. I'm really torn about what direction to go. Each possibility has it's own pitfalls and costs, I just can't decide.

    SmokingTires
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    07 Jun 2011 01:46 PM
    Rebuild this one. Because everyone has seen an American V8 dropped into a car it wasn't suppose to be. Even if the car was slow as heck, I would still come look at a V12 MGB. It's just damn cool!
    Dave Hardy
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    07 Jun 2011 01:58 PM
    What about sticking with Jag, but going I6? Should bolt in place of the V12 I think. Can be built to 400+ HP, lighter, aluminum head available, etc.

    I'm typically a "LSx makes everything better" kinda guy, but I really like the brit bomber that yours has become.
    JBrettHowell
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    07 Jun 2011 02:08 PM
    DILYSI Dave wrote:
    What about sticking with Jag, but going I6? Should bolt in place of the V12 I think. Can be built to 400+ HP, lighter, aluminum head available, etc.

    I'm typically a "LSx makes everything better" kinda guy, but I really like the brit bomber that yours has become.

    Hmm...what impact would the I6 have on your minimum weight? This may be the best idea ever!

    loosecannon
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    07 Jun 2011 02:18 PM
    I am getting lots of advice on which way I should go so let me break down the different options:

    Rebuild this V12-$1000.00-Plus: Nostalgia, cool factor, justifies all the hours spent engineering the car to fit this engine. Minus: After fixing the crank/bearings, the engine could still be damaged from the overheating, may overheat still and could still be underpowered.

    Buy another V12-$1500.00-Plus: Cool factor, justifies all the hours spent engineering the car to fit a v12, probably fuel injected and less trouble, probably has no issues. Minus: Will almost certainly be underpowered and is still 250 lbs heavier than a V8, could have it's own set of issues.

    LS1-$4000.00-$6000.00 depending on cost of engine-Plus: 250 lbs right off the front of the car, at least another 100 hp, reliable, easy to tune, easy to get more power, could make the car a championship contender, it fits the space left by the V12. Minus: So much money! Boring (as an engine swap, not to drive), making the swap would take a while.

    Ford 5.0-$1000.00-Plus: Inexpensive, 250 lbs off the front of the car, easy to tune, cheap to repair, cheap to modify, would bolt right to current tranny. Minus:Not very cool, not very interesting, underpowered

    JBrettHowell
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    07 Jun 2011 03:03 PM

    I hear you, but...

    "AJ16S

    A supercharged version of the 4.0 L AJ16 was released in 1994 in the Jaguar XJR which used an Eaton M90 blower to boost output to 240 kW (326 PS; 322 hp) and 512 N·m (378 lb·ft)."


    loosecannon
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    07 Jun 2011 10:38 PM
    I think I'm going with a Ford 5.0, it's not as interesting as the V12 but it should be fast enough to do well in EMod. When the funds are available, I can go through the v12 and upgrade it to make the 450 hp that's waiting to be unleashed.
    Bullitt2954
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    07 Jun 2011 11:47 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    I think I'm going with a Ford 5.0, it's not as interesting as the V12 but it should be fast enough to do well in EMod. When the funds are available, I can go through the v12 and upgrade it to make the 450 hp that's waiting to be unleashed.

    Safe option, likely the wisest open to you. In the '80s and '90s, the SBF was the SBC of the '60s and '70s!

    SmokingTires
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    08 Jun 2011 08:14 AM
    I completely understand going with the 5.0 on price point (plus added potential). A budget is a budget. I started this FP Evo this year from an STU car, did a ton of upgrades, drove 17 hours to Mineral Wells for the ProSolo and broke the transmission and t-case. Not a planned for expense. So after putting in upgraded parts, I limit myself on what I spend.

    I think your making the right move.
    loosecannon
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    08 Jun 2011 01:15 PM
    I am not nearly as stressed now that I have a goal to work towards. This morning I pulled the exhaust, spoiler, splitter, bumper and fenders off so pulling the engine will be easier. I also bolted the bearing caps and oil pan back on the engine so I don't lose anything. I may rebuild this engine some day and make it into a real screamer with high compression pistons and good cams.

    loosecannon
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    09 Jun 2011 11:14 PM
    I removed the final bits and pieces getting in the way of pulling the engine today so now all I have to do is get my engine hoist and pull out the V12. There should be lots of room in there for the V8, maybe I can add a trunk for holding our helmets? ;)



    lowside67
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    10 Jun 2011 02:53 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    lowside67 wrote:
    Not sure about a 5.0L but a bone stock LS1 will make 300whp pretty easily with a good set of headers and exhaust and should be able to be had for quite cheap. Mine was sourced locally in Vancouver for $1500 with ECU, complete, ready to run.

    Mark

    I looked into an LS1 but the wiring harness that I need to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car is $1600.00 by itself, plus the custom bellhousing/flywheel/pressure plate to mate to my T5.

    With all due respect, that is an absurd price for a wiring harness. I bought my harness designed to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car from Speartech for $650 and it was DEAD simple - came with 3 fuses in a fusebox, all I did was hook up a ground, a tach lead, and two power wires.

    230552_10150289174613448_502773447_95...
    That is my LS1 in my E36 BMW!

    loosecannon
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    10 Jun 2011 09:53 AM
    lowside67 wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:

    lowside67 wrote:

    Not sure about a 5.0L but a bone stock LS1 will make 300whp pretty easily with a good set of headers and exhaust and should be able to be had for quite cheap. Mine was sourced locally in Vancouver for $1500 with ECU, complete, ready to run.



    Mark

    I looked into an LS1 but the wiring harness that I need to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car is $1600.00 by itself, plus the custom bellhousing/flywheel/pressure plate to mate to my T5.

    With all due respect, that is an absurd price for a wiring harness. I bought my harness designed to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car from Speartech for $650 and it was DEAD simple - came with 3 fuses in a fusebox, all I did was hook up a ground, a tach lead, and two power wires.

    230552_10150289174613448_502773447_95...

    That is my LS1 in my E36 BMW!

    Did it come with the drive-by-wire throttle pedal and ECU? It doesn't matter, I am going with a 5.0, but the LS1 would be my first choice if I could afford it.

    christoc
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    10 Jun 2011 12:40 PM
    LS1 FTW
    loosecannon
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    10 Jun 2011 03:08 PM
    Chris Hammond wrote:

    LS1 FTW

    I hope it's going to be 5.0 FTW ;)

    loosecannon
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    12 Jun 2011 01:02 PM
    It took quite a while but I finally got the Ford 5.0 I'm using out of the vehicle it's been sitting in. The engine is a mess with all it's emissions garbage still attached and a layer of rust on every surface but it was free and does run really well so I can't complain too much. Just to get an idea of how it will fit, I hoisted the V8 into the space freshly vacated by the V12 and it looks like everything will fit ok. There will be a bunch of fab work required but I think I can handle it.

    SmokingTires
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    12 Jun 2011 07:52 PM
    For what you paid for the engine (or didn't pay as it is), you should have some money to clean it up. Hot tank time!
    loosecannon
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    12 Jun 2011 10:11 PM
    SmokingTires wrote:

    For what you paid for the engine (or didn't pay as it is), you should have some money to clean it up. Hot tank time!

    I'm quickly finding out how expensive this free engine was. I need an upper/lower manifold, fuel rail, a/c and smog pump delete bracket, oil pan/pick up, another transmission (because the same problem that damaged the crank also damaged the tranny), maf sensor, flywheel, pressure plate, headers and I'm sure a bunch more stuff will pop up-it's rediculous and I'm just a little depressed right now.

    47CP
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    13 Jun 2011 10:16 AM
    The little stuff can kick your butt.

    I assume the double hump oil pan won't fit your chassis? If you have an accusump, I wouldn't lose sleep over oil control in turns. If you don't have an accusump, I have two of them that I will give you for the price of shipping. :)

    What is damaged on your T-5? Can a new input shaft fix it?

    IMO, if budget is a concern, you are going to dump a ton of money into EFI. EFI is the way to go long term, but IMO the quickest and cheapest way to get the car on the track is to pick up a useddual plane 4 barrell intake and Holley 650 DP carb. You can resell it to some CP guy when you put the EFI back on and recoup a lot of the original expense.

    It has been a while, but if memory serves any of the early distributors will work with an MSD box for en extremely simple ignition system. If you want to junkyard scrounge, the 79-85 Duraspark stuff is pretty decent too.

    I am sure you found the many Mustang specific websites (corral.net, etc). You should be able to pick up a decent set of shorty headers very cheaply. The shortys should work fine for your chassis.

    Unless you have a large budget, IMO, you have to pick and choose a bit to get the car on the track at first. Headers, intakes, ignition can all be upgraded later without much hassle.

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    13 Jun 2011 12:45 PM
    I'm from the school of "get the right parts the first time" so getting a carb on there now only to switch later doesn't work for me. The other thing to remember is that I am in Canada, so buying parts from the US (where all the good stuff is) involves paying duties, taxes and higher than average shipping costs. Then, when it comes time to sell the parts, nobody wants them because they are in a foreign country. I'm pretty discouraged right now because I started getting parts for this 5.0 and the more I get into it, the more I am finding that I need. I will try to get just an input shaft and bearing for the tranny and hope that fixes it enough for now, a full rebuild including shaft is $800.00.
    jdchristianson
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    13 Jun 2011 01:30 PM

    good god don't spend $800 on a t5. Unless I'm really confused you should be able to get a whole tranny for way less. When I was using a t5 I had a spare that came from a swap meet for $75. Mine were mid 80's camaro units.

    when was the last time this motor ran?

    47CP
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    13 Jun 2011 01:32 PM
    Yep, everying "racecar" can turn into a nightmare. I had to spend over $200 on various kits, parts and shipping last August to fix a $2.00 o-ring in my transmission.

    I was just throwing suggestions out that would get you on the track quickly and for a little bit less money based on my experience.

    IMO, setting up and tuning EFI is a few thousand dollar proposition and will take most of a season to properly tune. Throw in the fact that your chassis is totally untested and the issues there that are bound to come up will cost more time and money, and I think the EFI route will make you lucky to make Lincoln in 2012.

    You might want to join the CP Email list and troll for parts. http://cp.carlc.com/

    DaveW




    jdchristianson
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    13 Jun 2011 01:44 PM

    But these cars really are that much fun. you get to drive them, fix them, kick them, swear at them, and love them all at the same time :)

    Bullitt2954
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    13 Jun 2011 01:44 PM
    I vote (again!) for what Dave sez: Stick a carb on it, F-Bomb the EFI for now. Remember the "Do it Right" money should be saved for the Jag V-12. A swap-meet/junkyard T5 is also the way to go - I'll keep an eye out for one, and I ask others viewing this thread to do the same. Should be able to have one in your hand for about HALF the rebuild-cost. Can't make any promises, other than I'll keep an eye to the ground and an ear out for parts....

    C'mon guys - it's only a bit of your time.



    loosecannon
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    13 Jun 2011 02:56 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    good god don't spend $800 on a t5. Unless I'm really confused you should be able to get a whole tranny for way less. When I was using a t5 I had a spare that came from a swap meet for $75. Mine were mid 80's camaro units.

    when was the last time this motor ran?

    Everybody says T5's are cheap and plentiful yet there's none of the local wrecking yards or classifieds have any for sale. The engine was running the day I pulled it out. It drove and sounded really good.

    jdchristianson
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    13 Jun 2011 03:25 PM

    Tried ebay?

    You're using a mustang t5 I assume? For what ever reason the GM ones seem cheaper.

    Bullitt2954
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    13 Jun 2011 03:34 PM

    Here's just a few T5's from the KC Craigslist:

    http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pt...66056.html
    http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pt...64398.html
    http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pt...61791.html (might not want this one - post '93 had longer input shafts)
    http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/2433855081.html
    http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/2431642557.html

    Springfield Craigslist:

    http://springfield.craigslist.org/pts/2436621009.html
    http://springfield.craigslist.org/pts/2356733568.html

    Here's an ad with a 289 Intake for $30: http://kansascity.craigslist.org/pts/2390925950.html

    (I cannot recall if the "early" 289/302 intakes fit the 5.0 heads - you'll have to determine that one)

    Here's another, lots of 5.0 perf parts: http://springfield.craigslist.org/pts/2412873957.html

    Ones that are close to Southwest MO, I can take a look for you, if you want. Help out with gettin' it to you, too.

    loosecannon
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    13 Jun 2011 04:54 PM
    Some really good deals in Missouri. I'm not comfortable buying from CL and getting them to ship to me but I did find some deals closer to home in Fargo where I can drive down and take a look.
    74_5.0L_Z
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    13 Jun 2011 05:00 PM

    I have been running a Mustang T5 in my 5.0L powered 260Z for about 10 years. With the stock shortblock and Edelbrock heads plus other modifications that yielded ~350 hp at the flywheel, the T5 held up well. The only complaint that I had with the stock transmission was 1st gear (The 3.35 to 1 ratio was way too short).

    Two years ago, I built a 331 stroker and now make ~450 hp at the flywheel. The old stock T5 died a sudden violent death. I removed all of the teeth from second gear and twisted the input shaft about five degrees (there were no drag race starts or power shifting involved).

    I replaced the stock T5 with a Gforce T5. The Gforce T5 has stronger gears and shafts, and is rated for 500 hp. Additionally, the Gforce T5 has a better first gear ratio (2.94 to 1). The new transmission has been in for a year now and I have had no problems. They are a little pricey (~2300 USD), but you get a 75 lb transmission that can handle a lot of abuse.

    SmokingTires
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    13 Jun 2011 06:45 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    ..I'm sure a bunch more stuff will pop up-it's rediculous and I'm just a little depressed right now.

    If it makes you feel any better. I thought I had everything sorted out on the FP car and was ready to finally complete an event (broken at 5 events now) and the hood pins slipped and my hood smashed my windshield. I know where your coming from. The small stuff sure manages to wreck everything (like the fuel relay at Lincoln Tour)

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/vi...p;comments

    loosecannon
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    14 Jun 2011 01:19 PM
    SmokingTires wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:
    ..I'm sure a bunch more stuff will pop up-it's rediculous and I'm just a little depressed right now.

    If it makes you feel any better. I thought I had everything sorted out on the FP car and was ready to finally complete an event (broken at 5 events now) and the hood pins slipped and my hood smashed my windshield. I know where your coming from. The small stuff sure manages to wreck everything (like the fuel relay at Lincoln Tour)

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/vi...p;comments

    The misery of others does make me feel better, thanks ;) As is typical for these kind of projects, the "free" engine I was given was actually going to be quite costly to put in the car. It came out of a truck and even though the Mustang and F150 5.0 were similar, they are not the same. The location of accessories, intake, compression ratio, camshaft, pistons, water pump and other tidbits are different so getting the same performance out of a truck engine is more costly and difficult. Fortunately, I found a complete and running Mustang 5.0 HO engine locally for $200.00 and it even includes headers. On the left is the High Output 5.0 and on the right is the F150 engine, notice that the water pumps spin in opposite directions:





    47CP
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    14 Jun 2011 01:42 PM
    Sweet. The HO is a much nicer motor. There are 11 billion combos on Ford waterpumps. For the most part, any pump will work with any timing cover so you can switch to the standard rotation stuff if needed.

    Speaking from experience, if you change the front drive configuration, watch the overdrive speed of the alternator and to a leeser extent, the waterpump. You don't want to mix a larger crank pulley with a smaller alternator one as it will overspeed the alternator and kill it.

    One of the two oil pans should fit your car??

    Did the truck engine even have a roller cam?

    DaveW

    DaveW

    loosecannon
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    14 Jun 2011 02:35 PM
    47CP wrote:

    Sweet. The HO is a much nicer motor. There are 11 billion combos on Ford waterpumps. For the most part, any pump will work with any timing cover so you can switch to the standard rotation stuff if needed.



    Speaking from experience, if you change the front drive configuration, watch the overdrive speed of the alternator and to a leeser extent, the waterpump. You don't want to mix a larger crank pulley with a smaller alternator one as it will overspeed the alternator and kill it.



    One of the two oil pans should fit your car??



    Did the truck engine even have a roller cam?



    DaveW



    DaveW



    I plan on putting underdrive pulleys and somehow fit my tiny Powermaster alternator-although with the extra electrics, it may not have enough juice (32 amps @idle, 55 amps peak). I have a road race oil pan coming for it and the truck engine has a flat tappet cam. I have to check the heads because the truck heads might actually be better.

    47CP
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    14 Jun 2011 03:56 PM
    I am just throwing random crap out here that I have fought in the past...I hope it is helpful....

    -I always had oil pressure problems without an accusump, no matter which pan I used. FYI.
    -I started way back with under-drive pulleys and with electric fans, electric WP, etc, the alt did not spin fast enough to keep the battery charged. Your powermaster should be good for 18k (might be 15k( rpm at the alternator, set your pulleys for that.
    -Be careful that you have the right imbalance on any flywheel or harmonic balancer you put on. I am sure the HO is 50oz imbalance, the truck probably is too. But there are also 28 oz ones and they will fit, but obviously are not compatible. The wrong one will shake your fillings out and probably damage the engine or block.
    -I think I told you about the importance of the spacer plate between the bell housing and engine.
    -Distributor gears - roller cam motors take a steel gear. A regular motor's distributor will get destroyed by the roller cam, so make sure you have the right one. A lot of the aftermarket distributors *used* to use a bronze one and let it wear, that never seemed like a good idea to me.
    -Certain heads don't clear the pistons on certain motors. I know 86 HO motors had oddball forged flat top pistons with no valve relief, which made it so later heads and aftermarket ones wouldn't fit. Not sure on the truck motor stuff, just be cautious. IMO, I wouldn't dick with the heads until you can afford aluminum ones....you can get an absolutely spectacular AFR CNC machined head for $1500 which no ported stocker will ever touch.

    Like I said, random crap. Hope it helps,

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    14 Jun 2011 04:26 PM
    47CP wrote:

    I am just throwing random crap out here that I have fought in the past...I hope it is helpful....



    -I always had oil pressure problems without an accusump, no matter which pan I used. FYI.

    -I started way back with under-drive pulleys and with electric fans, electric WP, etc, the alt did not spin fast enough to keep the battery charged. Your powermaster should be good for 18k (might be 15k( rpm at the alternator, set your pulleys for that.

    -Be careful that you have the right imbalance on any flywheel or harmonic balancer you put on. I am sure the HO is 50oz imbalance, the truck probably is too. But there are also 28 oz ones and they will fit, but obviously are not compatible. The wrong one will shake your fillings out and probably damage the engine or block.

    -I think I told you about the importance of the spacer plate between the bell housing and engine.

    -Distributor gears - roller cam motors take a steel gear. A regular motor's distributor will get destroyed by the roller cam, so make sure you have the right one. A lot of the aftermarket distributors *used* to use a bronze one and let it wear, that never seemed like a good idea to me.

    -Certain heads don't clear the pistons on certain motors. I know 86 HO motors had oddball forged flat top pistons with no valve relief, which made it so later heads and aftermarket ones wouldn't fit. Not sure on the truck motor stuff, just be cautious. IMO, I wouldn't dick with the heads until you can afford aluminum ones....you can get an absolutely spectacular AFR CNC machined head for $1500 which no ported stocker will ever touch.



    Like I said, random crap. Hope it helps,



    DaveW

    Good info, thanks. I am not using a truck engine, I now have a 1986 HO engine (I guess with oddball pistons-darnit). I didn't realize I needed a spacer plate and guess I'll have to get one of those, too. I plan on getting later aluminum GT40 heads but I guess they won't work with my 1986 engine?

    47CP
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    14 Jun 2011 04:48 PM
    I listed the stuff about the truck engine to make sure you don't grab parts off it and they screw something up.

    Correct on the 86 motor. It has flat top forged pistons with no valve reliefs and I don't *think* GT40 heads will fit without cutting valve reliefs. There are tools to do that in the car, but that would make me nervous as hell. :) Even though 86 has the worst stock heads, you might get going down a slippery slope of expense if you try to change them. That motor is 225hp and 300ft lbs of torque stock, which will move your 2000lb car along pretty nicely. Power isn't everything, my co driver raw timed VerMulm and his 1,xxx hp Camaro this past weekend with only about 60% throttle opening.

    PA Automtoive sells a nice spacer plate, but either of the ones off the engines you pulled should also work. I don't remember the exact combination on what starters work with what, but the stuff off the car engine should be pretty universal.

    DaveW
    lowside67
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    14 Jun 2011 04:53 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    lowside67 wrote:
    loosecannon wrote:
    lowside67 wrote:
    Not sure about a 5.0L but a bone stock LS1 will make 300whp pretty easily with a good set of headers and exhaust and should be able to be had for quite cheap. Mine was sourced locally in Vancouver for $1500 with ECU, complete, ready to run.

    Mark

    I looked into an LS1 but the wiring harness that I need to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car is $1600.00 by itself, plus the custom bellhousing/flywheel/pressure plate to mate to my T5.

    With all due respect, that is an absurd price for a wiring harness. I bought my harness designed to run an LS1 in a non LS1 car from Speartech for $650 and it was DEAD simple - came with 3 fuses in a fusebox, all I did was hook up a ground, a tach lead, and two power wires.

    230552_10150289174613448_502773447_95...
    That is my LS1 in my E36 BMW!

    Did it come with the drive-by-wire throttle pedal and ECU? It doesn't matter, I am going with a 5.0, but the LS1 would be my first choice if I could afford it.

    The motor came with an ECU, out of an automatic, which was easily reprogrammed. The motor is not drive by wire so no need for a drive by wire throttle pedal.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    14 Jun 2011 05:09 PM
    47CP wrote:

    I listed the stuff about the truck engine to make sure you don't grab parts off it and they screw something up.



    Correct on the 86 motor. It has flat top forged pistons with no valve reliefs and I don't *think* GT40 heads will fit without cutting valve reliefs. There are tools to do that in the car, but that would make me nervous as hell. :) Even though 86 has the worst stock heads, you might get going down a slippery slope of expense if you try to change them. That motor is 225hp and 300ft lbs of torque stock, which will move your 2000lb car along pretty nicely. Power isn't everything, my co driver raw timed VerMulm and his 1,xxx hp Camaro this past weekend with only about 60% throttle opening.



    PA Automtoive sells a nice spacer plate, but either of the ones off the engines you pulled should also work. I don't remember the exact combination on what starters work with what, but the stuff off the car engine should be pretty universal.



    DaveW

    This is the kind of stuff that drives me crazy. I thought I was doing great getting this engine for $200, only to find out that I can't change to aluminum heads down the road-grrrrr :(

    47CP
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    14 Jun 2011 05:49 PM
    I don't know how you could call a running engine with decent power a bad deal for $200. Get it in the car and get the car running. ~250hp and 300+ lbs of torque will be plenty in a 2100lb car, and I have said it before, that power level will have no effect on whether you do or don't trophy in Lincoln.

    When you go to do the heads, you can look at notching the pistons, or switching out the pistons during a quicky rebuild and it won't cost that much money. Once you start changing things, you need to keep your eye on the capacity of the stock block, which in my experience are limited to around 400 hp at the flywheel. That is not absolute, but I made two stock blocks into 2 piece ones at around that power level.

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    15 Jun 2011 12:39 AM
    47CP wrote:

    I don't know how you could call a running engine with decent power a bad deal for $200. Get it in the car and get the car running. ~250hp and 300+ lbs of torque will be plenty in a 2100lb car, and I have said it before, that power level will have no effect on whether you do or don't trophy in Lincoln.



    When you go to do the heads, you can look at notching the pistons, or switching out the pistons during a quicky rebuild and it won't cost that much money. Once you start changing things, you need to keep your eye on the capacity of the stock block, which in my experience are limited to around 400 hp at the flywheel. That is not absolute, but I made two stock blocks into 2 piece ones at around that power level.



    DaveW

    Is 400 at the flywheel more than 350 at the wheels? We both know you can't use any more than that in EM anyways ;) So, I am using a stock roller cam, stock heads (I may have GT40P heads on the way but the pistons would have to be notched), GT40 upper/lower intake, small tube headers, 24lb injectors, 70mm maf and 65mm tb, Aluminum flywheel/stage 3 clutch, underdrive pulleys and Canton road race pan with windage tray-does this sound like a decent enough set up to start with?

    74_5.0L_Z
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    15 Jun 2011 06:49 AM
    The GT40-P heads are an improvement over the stock E7TE heads, but are difficult to find headers for because of the spark plug angles. A better option would be to find some aftermarket aluminum heads. The aluminum heads remove 50 lbs from the engine, are far superior to the GT40P heads, and are easier to find headers for. I am currently using ported Edelbrock Performer 5.0 heads (P/N 60379). I have been running these heads for ten years with no problems. They made a huge difference on my car when I upgraded from the stock heads(I dropped a full second and picked up 10 mph in my quarter mile time). There are much better heads available than the Edelbrocks that I am using. I would love to upgrade to some AFR185s.
    loosecannon
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    15 Jun 2011 09:53 AM
    74_5.0L_Z wrote:

    The GT40-P heads are an improvement over the stock E7TE heads, but are difficult to find headers for because of the spark plug angles. A better option would be to find some aftermarket aluminum heads. The aluminum heads remove 50 lbs from the engine, are far superior to the GT40P heads, and are easier to find headers for. I am currently using ported Edelbrock Performer 5.0 heads (P/N 60379). I have been running these heads for ten years with no problems. They made a huge difference on my car when I upgraded from the stock heads(I dropped a full second and picked up 10 mph in my quarter mile time). There are much better heads available than the Edelbrocks that I am using. I would love to upgrade to some AFR185s.

    I was reading that the aluminum heads are each 22lbs lighter than stock heads, which is nice. Sadly, I have a 1986 HO motor and none of those heads will fit unless I machine valve reliefs into the pistons.

    47CP
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    15 Jun 2011 10:12 AM
    loosecannon wrote:
    47CP wrote:

    I don't know how you could call a running engine with decent power a bad deal for $200. Get it in the car and get the car running. ~250hp and 300+ lbs of torque will be plenty in a 2100lb car, and I have said it before, that power level will have no effect on whether you do or don't trophy in Lincoln.



    When you go to do the heads, you can look at notching the pistons, or switching out the pistons during a quicky rebuild and it won't cost that much money. Once you start changing things, you need to keep your eye on the capacity of the stock block, which in my experience are limited to around 400 hp at the flywheel. That is not absolute, but I made two stock blocks into 2 piece ones at around that power level.



    DaveW

    Is 400 at the flywheel more than 350 at the wheels? We both know you can't use any more than that in EM anyways ;) So, I am using a stock roller cam, stock heads (I may have GT40P heads on the way but the pistons would have to be notched), GT40 upper/lower intake, small tube headers, 24lb injectors, 70mm maf and 65mm tb, Aluminum flywheel/stage 3 clutch, underdrive pulleys and Canton road race pan with windage tray-does this sound like a decent enough set up to start with?

    349 RWHP is the limit, 350 and it is all over. :)

    Should be a good combo to start. I used a very similair one in CP for a few years and it produced pretty good acceleration in a much heavier car.

    DaveW

    74_5.0L_Z
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    15 Jun 2011 07:18 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    74_5.0L_Z wrote:

    The GT40-P heads are an improvement over the stock E7TE heads, but are difficult to find headers for because of the spark plug angles. A better option would be to find some aftermarket aluminum heads. The aluminum heads remove 50 lbs from the engine, are far superior to the GT40P heads, and are easier to find headers for. I am currently using ported Edelbrock Performer 5.0 heads (P/N 60379). I have been running these heads for ten years with no problems. They made a huge difference on my car when I upgraded from the stock heads(I dropped a full second and picked up 10 mph in my quarter mile time). There are much better heads available than the Edelbrocks that I am using. I would love to upgrade to some AFR185s.

    I was reading that the aluminum heads are each 22lbs lighter than stock heads, which is nice. Sadly, I have a 1986 HO motor and none of those heads will fit unless I machine valve reliefs into the pistons.

    I think you would be better off finding a 1987-1993 engine than you would be messing with the 1986 engine. If you do decide to stay with the 1986 engine, then you should definitely get some different pistons. Without changing / machining those pistons, your options for modification will be extremely limited.

    SmokingTires
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    15 Jun 2011 08:05 PM
    Keep the '86 motor. Finish the season. And when it's time for new heads, put new pistons in. They are an easy swap, relatively cheap, and then you don't need to find a new motor. Done.
    47CP
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    15 Jun 2011 09:14 PM
    x2

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    15 Jun 2011 10:54 PM
    SmokingTires wrote:

    Keep the '86 motor. Finish the season. And when it's time for new heads, put new pistons in. They are an easy swap, relatively cheap, and then you don't need to find a new motor. Done.

    Except that for 1987, Ford added a few pounds of reinforcement in weak areas of the block and these engines can take more HP without going boom.

    The 5.0 was pretty dirty so I removed all the brackets and started cleaning. I soaked it in engine degreaser then used a wire brush on the end of a drill to get the thick stuff. Then I used a garden hose to rinse the engine off so I could take a closer look. If I found any more grime, I soaked that area with degreaser and scrubbed some more. After several cycles of degreaser-rinse-inspect I was able to go over the whole engine with brake cleaner to remove the film left by the degreaser. Then I sprayed it with Ford Racing Blue engine paint. Before and after:



    SmokingTires
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    15 Jun 2011 11:24 PM
    loosecannon wrote:
    SmokingTires wrote:

    Keep the '86 motor. Finish the season. And when it's time for new heads, put new pistons in. They are an easy swap, relatively cheap, and then you don't need to find a new motor. Done.

    Except that for 1987, Ford added a few pounds of reinforcement in weak areas of the block and these engines can take more HP without going boom.

    But like Dave said, these blocks are already the limiter to power. 350hp with a likely 400-450tq will make your car move! When you get to the point of needing more, you should be shopping for a block anyways(Hard to think 5.7lbs/hp would ever not be enough, but maybe. My car is 5.5lbs/hp and I can spin all 4 tires). Like stated before, a few hp isn't going to be the decider to a championship. Pushing the edge is always dangerous. Building well within what the engine can hold will have the best long term results.

    loosecannon
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    16 Jun 2011 12:06 AM
    SmokingTires wrote:

    loosecannon wrote:

    SmokingTires wrote:



    Keep the '86 motor. Finish the season. And when it's time for new heads, put new pistons in. They are an easy swap, relatively cheap, and then you don't need to find a new motor. Done.

    Except that for 1987, Ford added a few pounds of reinforcement in weak areas of the block and these engines can take more HP without going boom.

    But like Dave said, these blocks are already the limiter to power. 350hp with a likely 400-450tq will make your car move! When you get to the point of needing more, you should be shopping for a block anyways(Hard to think 5.7lbs/hp would ever not be enough, but maybe. My car is 5.5lbs/hp and I can spin all 4 tires). Like stated before, a few hp isn't going to be the decider to a championship. Pushing the edge is always dangerous. Building well within what the engine can hold will have the best long term results.

    Yes, I know that power isn't going to win a championship. I am hoping to get around 350 reliable hp to the wheels, I hate fixing cars when I should be concentrating on my driving. I'll need a good set of heads, headers and cam on this engine to get the numbers but that will have to wait until next winter.

    scardeal
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    16 Jun 2011 08:47 AM
    Why not just use the V8 until you can get the V12 sorted back out?

    If your ultimate plan is to put the V12 back into it, why worry so much about squeezing the absolute limit of the 302's power when it's just going to be put aside anyway after a year?

    Just a thought.
    47CP
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    16 Jun 2011 09:06 AM
    Quote:
    Except that for 1987, Ford added a few pounds of reinforcement in weak areas of the block and these engines can take more HP without going boom.


    Not saying it isn't true, but I have not heard that before. I have heard that the blocks got lighter as time progressed and both the blocks I split were later models (90 and 93). My original 86 block was fine, and the motor I ran for years with no problem was an 85 block.

    All I know for sure is that splitting the block basically trashes every part of the engine even if the split doesn't cause shit to run out the bottom. :) In one case, my crank was bent, a few rods tweaked, cam shot (block splits through the cam bearing journal, bearing spins and welds to cam). The other wasn't much better. Everyone has to decide for themselves if they think it is worth the risk to shoot for the sky with power level inside a stock block.

    DaveW
    Bullitt2954
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    16 Jun 2011 11:58 AM

    Repeat after me: "The Ford engine is a Stopgap. I want the V-12. I'm just going make the F-Bomber run, put the Real engine-building money and effort into the Jag...."

    Every time you think "I can put some forged pistons, and aluminium heads on the 5.0, and then...." I want you to walk over to the V-12 and stare at it until those thoughts diminish and the same ones come-forward in your mind for the Jag-motor. Carry a piece of the thing with you, if you gotta. A small hole drilled in one of those main-bearing thrust shims and stuck on a keychain would work.




    loosecannon
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    16 Jun 2011 01:41 PM
    Ok, this is going to sound pathetic but it's true. This project has exploded in costs (as all these things seem to do) and the supposedly cheaper option of putting a 5.0 in is every bit as expensive as fixing the V12. I desperately want to run the car at this years Nationals and my wife and I are already registered but business (www.speedworld.ca) is painfully slow and I am still some expensive parts away from getting it together. Does anybody know where I can get any of the following parts for a 86-93 5.0 at a good price? Flywheel, pressure plate, T5 transmission, universal wiring harness, efi fuel pump. Of lesser importance are a good roller cam, underdrive pulleys and proper shorty headers. E-mail me marksawatsky at gmail dot com if you have something I could use.
    cmt52663
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    16 Jun 2011 05:05 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:

    Repeat after me: "The Ford engine is a Stopgap. I want the V-12. I'm just going make the F-Bomber run, put the Real engine-building money and effort into the Jag...."

    Every time you think "I can put some forged pistons, and aluminium heads on the 5.0, and then...." I want you to walk over to the V-12 and stare at it until those thoughts diminish and the same ones come-forward in your mind for the Jag-motor. Carry a piece of the thing with you, if you gotta. A small hole drilled in one of those main-bearing thrust shims and stuck on a keychain would work.



    selfish b*stard that I am - I salute this post!

    but I wish you the best in getting that V8 up and running in short order... very sorry I've none of what you need.

    in the peanut gallery,

    Charlie

    toddzilla
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    19 Jun 2011 09:06 PM
    A friend of mine has 2 or 3 v12's in his barn (concrete floor). I think one of them is canadian spec with a turbo400 on it. They are selling the farm make him an offer. Todd
    loosecannon
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    19 Jun 2011 10:55 PM
    toddzilla wrote:

    A friend of mine has 2 or 3 v12's in his barn (concrete floor). I think one of them is canadian spec with a turbo400 on it. They are selling the farm make him an offer. Todd

    I'm too stretched to buy another V12 right now, and would prefer to rebuild the one I have.

    jdchristianson
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    22 Jun 2011 05:54 PM

    how goes the engine swap?

    loosecannon
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    22 Jun 2011 10:25 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    how goes the engine swap?

    Slow, I am waiting for parts to arrive. Some parts have arrived, like the oil pan..but the matching pickup was not sent with it. I need the flywheel, clutch and transmission to arrive so I can bolt them all together and start making new engine mounts.

    I installed a windage tray and road race oil pan today. A windage tray is designed to keep oil from splashing back up on the crank during racing while still allowing oil to drip into the pan. The oil pan is made by Canton and has several one way doors that keep oil flowing towards the pickup but prevent oil from flowing away. The one pic shows one of the hinged doors.




    loosecannon
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    10 Jul 2011 12:31 AM
    The whole project has ground to a halt because I am waiting for the flywheel bolts to arrive (there seems to be a worldwide shortage) but I am desperate to do something so I started taking the rust off the nuts/bolts and certain parts. I purchased some Zep Lime and Rust remover and soaked the parts in it for a day. Here is a motor mount before and after. I put only half the mount in the solution so you can see the difference. After eating off the rust, I rinse the part with water then either paint it or spray with WD40 to prevent further corrosion.




    loosecannon
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    13 Jul 2011 10:53 PM
    Finally got the bolts I needed so I bolted the flywheel, clutch, pressure plate, bellhousing, transmission and intake manifold on and slid the whole unit into the car. The good news is that there is a ton of extra room in the engine compartment, the bad news is that the Tilton hydraulic release bearing I have will not work, the V12 mounts interfere with the 5.0 oil filter, the headers will have to be modified and the oil pan is a little too close to the ground. I can't do the fabrication work at home so I will have to move the car to the kart track to move this project along.










    loosecannon
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    21 Jul 2011 01:46 PM
    The car is back at the track, where the adventure began. The first thing I did was put a 2" block under the oil pan and crossmember to simulate the clearance I need at normal ride height. The 5.0 bellhousing is taller and the oil pan is deeper than what was on the V12 so there is some clearance issues with the firewall. I trimmed the firewall and fitted the EFI upper intake manifold, it barely fits. It looks like I will have to mod the frame for the exhaust to fit.







    Bullitt2954
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    21 Jul 2011 06:09 PM
    Since you were paintin' it anyhow - should've painted the engine "pink"......

    loosecannon
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    21 Jul 2011 08:10 PM
    Bullitt2954 wrote:
    Since you were paintin' it anyhow - should've painted the engine "pink"......

     

    Yes, I called around to local paint mixing places and couldn't get anyone to mix pink engine paint. I wasn't going to take a chance after the valve cover fiasco
    loosecannon
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    02 Aug 2011 07:10 PM
    Now that the headers are flipped around, they dump out right where the frame was. I cut the section out on each side and welded in a new piece at a new angle so the exhaust will clear. Here is the section I had to cut out of the drivers side:




    And after the new piece is welded in. I have to do some final welding up on it.



    I learned from the V12 that motor mounts sticking into the engine bay make it difficult to remove the engine, so for these ones I ran 2" tubing from the stock mounting holes on the block out to the frame and made them bolt-on.



    There is no cushion between the engine and frame, it's essentially solid mounts.

    loosecannon
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    10 Aug 2011 09:26 PM
    The switch from carbs to EFI required a complete change of the fuel system. I needed to remove the old fuel line, pump and filter and add a new fuel pump, feed line, filter and return line. The new fuel pump:


    Fuel filter bolted to the frame rail. I hope it's not going to get too warm from the side pipes.


    The fuel lines run inside the frame rail until just behind the battery where they pop out and go to the fuel rail on the engine:




    ratt_finkel
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    11 Aug 2011 05:34 PM
    Love this build! Good luck and hope to see you in Lincoln!
    loosecannon
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    14 Aug 2011 11:31 PM
    Update: Took the Painless wiring harness I bought on E-Bay and began installing it. Everything was going swimmingly until I couldn't find a plug for the ECU. Further investigation revealed that the wiring harness was for a MAP(manifold absolute pressure) engine and I had purchased all the sensors for a MAF (mass airflow)engine. MAF is better so I put the MAP harness back on E-Bay where amazingly it sold within 12 hours and now I have to purchase a harness for a MAF engine.
    loosecannon
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    14 Sep 2011 02:55 PM
    I haven't stopped work on the car, I just haven't completed any tasks. I have been working on a few things, here's some pics:


    In this picture of the car in action at an autocross, you can see a lot of daylight between the floor and ground. This was a mistake, I built the floor higher than the MGB floor when I didn't need to. So the next picture shows the whole floor cut out, to be remade entirely out of aluminum and a few inches lower.





    And the upper intake is bolted on. I also began installation of the Painless wiring harness.



    I am also attempting to build fender flares out of aluminum. I think they will look pretty good when all done.
    loosecannon
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    03 Oct 2011 05:23 PM
    The construction of the new lowered floor began with the drivers side. I ordered some 1/8" aluminum sheet from Tailor Made and had them bend it for me.


    The raw materials.



    After a lot of fitting, trimming, cutting and re-fitting I was able to use threaded rivets to hold the floor to the frame rails.



    And bolt the tunnel to the floor. I still have to fill in the gap at the back of the floor then onto the passenger side.
    loosecannon
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    11 Oct 2011 05:03 PM
    I got everything hooked up on the 5.0 V8 and here is the video of the very first time I pushed the start button:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp54ywG-RlA
    47CP
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    11 Oct 2011 05:10 PM
    Congrats.

    Thanks again for the Canada pin you gave me at Nationals. That was pretty classy to even recognize an idiot giving advice over the intarwebz, much less bring him a small gift. I have been wearing it on my lanyard with my SCCA ID.

    DaveW
    jdchristianson
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    11 Oct 2011 06:27 PM

    Congrats, always fun when they make noise. Is the snow flying in Canada yet? Will you get a chance to make black marks this fall?

    loosecannon
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    11 Oct 2011 07:14 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    Congrats, always fun when they make noise. Is the snow flying in Canada yet? Will you get a chance to make black marks this fall?

    The weather has been great here so far but I have no plans to drive it outside this year. I will certainly drive it indoors on my kart track at some point but I don 't want to rush the construction and make mistakes.

    loosecannon
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    21 Oct 2011 11:41 AM
    The giant radiator I had for the V12 was so heavily modified that I decided to start fresh with a new, built for a 5.0, aluminum racing radiator. A mistake I made with the other one was that the uprights holding the rad also got in the way of shrouding the radiator. For this one I mounted it lower and farther back for improved weight distribution and I allowed lots of room for shrouding. Here is the passenger side lower mount bolted to the frame:



    And upper passenger side:



    And here you can see there is plenty of room behind the rad for shrouding some fans in:

    loosecannon
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    27 Oct 2011 06:38 PM
    The giant radiator I had for the V12 was so heavily modified that I decided to start fresh with a new, built for a 5.0, aluminum racing radiator. A mistake I made with the other one was that the uprights holding the rad also got in the way of shrouding the radiator. For this one I mounted it lower and farther back for improved weight distribution and I allowed lots of room for shrouding. Here is the passenger side lower mount bolted to the frame:
    [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/loosecannon/MGB-GT/IMG_6544.jpg[/IMG]

    And upper passenger side:
    [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/loosecannon/MGB-GT/IMG_6545.jpg[/IMG]

    And here you can see there is plenty of room behind the rad for shrouding some fans in:
    [IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/loosecannon/MGB-GT/IMG_6546.jpg[/IMG]
    loosecannon
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    01 Nov 2011 08:50 PM
    It turns out that my aluminum floor is not legal for the class because the rear tranny crossmember bolts to it and becomes load bearing, and aluminum is not allowed for load bearing structure. I simply added 1"x2" steel tube between the transmission crossmember and the frame rails and the problem is solved.




    loosecannon
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    12 Nov 2011 07:35 AM
    I drove the car around the kart track for a few laps, it was too much fun! It feels understeery so I have to give it some welli to get it to rotate but otherwise the handling feels good. It does smoke a lot but I hope to have that problem solved soon. Here is video from 3 different angles:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67hQlqxbzHo
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wD9xiu4WV1M
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1ms9A3S7IU
    Markwrx
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    12 Nov 2011 11:44 AM

    Congrats. Is that floor as slippery as it looks? You may be the only person with his own autoX practice course :>)

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    12 Nov 2011 12:56 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Congrats. Is that floor as slippery as it looks? You may be the only person with his own autoX practice course :>)

    Mark

    The track is polished concrete and is suprisingly grippy when it's clean but all it takes is for one customer to have mud on their boots which falls on the track and grip is gone.

    74_5.0L_Z
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    13 Nov 2011 12:42 PM
    So how do you like the feel of the car with the 5.0L? You must have lost close to 200 lbs off of the front end by changing from the V12 to the Ford V8.
    loosecannon
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    13 Nov 2011 01:18 PM
    74_5.0L_Z wrote:
    So how do you like the feel of the car with the 5.0L? You must have lost close to 200 lbs off of the front end by changing from the V12 to the Ford V8.

    The handling is definitely different, it has less front end grip now but it's physically easier to turn the steering wheel. I suspect I have lost more than 200 lbs off the front end because a 5.0 weighs 400-450 lbs and I know the V12 weighed 669 lbs. The 5.0 also uses a smaller radiator, holds less oil, doesn't use a big oil cooler and has stainless headers instead of cast iron manifolds. Despite the poor state of tune of the engine, throttle response is better than the V12 and power doesn't seem to diminish at high rpm where the V12 lost power above 5000 rpm. I figure that torque is about the same between the two engines but the car will ultimately be quicker with the V8. I always loved the unique sound of the V12 and will miss it but there's no arguing that the V8 has a pretty beefy howl, just listen to the video with headphones on.

    jdchristianson
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    13 Nov 2011 02:22 PM

    So have you weighed the car yet, with the 5L?



    loosecannon
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    13 Nov 2011 05:25 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    So have you weighed the car yet, with the 5L?



     

    Not yet, I have to borrow the club scales. I am hoping for below 2100 lbs with me in it.
    loosecannon
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    14 Nov 2011 11:35 PM
    Because the floor and side pipes dropped 3 inches, there was an ugly gap between the body and the pipes so today I took some 18 gauge aluminum and filled the gap. I was going to paint it but some have the opinion that it looks good in natural aluminum. It could also be a good place for sponsor stickers.




    loosecannon
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    16 Nov 2011 03:07 PM
    I finally built the passenger rear fender flare. I planned on doing front ones as well but am not sold on the flares yet. Do you think I should get rid of them, paint them or leave them and build front ones, too?







    47CP
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    16 Nov 2011 03:29 PM
    They are very nice, but look just a tick off to me. IMO, they might look better if the hole for the tire was larger diameter.

    If you keep them in the rear, you can widen the rear spoiler to the width of the flares at the axle center line (IIRC)

    DaveW
    ratt_finkel
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    16 Nov 2011 03:30 PM
    I love flares! But something about those doesn't sit well with me.
    lowside67
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    17 Nov 2011 12:54 PM
    How do you easily change tires with that flare design?
    loosecannon
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    17 Nov 2011 04:08 PM
    lowside67 wrote:
    How do you easily change tires with that flare design?

    When the suspension droops, the tires come off. It doesn't matter, though because I pulled the flares off today.

    loosecannon
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    21 Nov 2011 04:07 PM
    If you go back to the post where I weighed the car with the V12, you will see that the total weight (with me in it) was 2353 lbs and 46.8% of that was on the back tires. Now, with the V8, the total weight is 2136 and 51.1% of that is on the back tires-this is all good news. All I need is to switch to aluminum heads and rear diff and some glass fenders and I'm down to the class minimum weight. :)


    Bullitt2954
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    21 Nov 2011 09:43 PM
    VROOM -AH!!!!

    loosecannon
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    23 Nov 2011 06:14 PM
    With the new lowered floor, the belly pan under the rear suspension and the diffuser had to be lowered as well. Here is the belly pan, notice it is now low enough to go completely under the diff where before I had to cut a hole for the center section to poke through:



    And the diffuser bolts onto the belly pan. A lot of material was cut off the vertical pieces in order to make it fit.



    And from the side. The rear diffuser supports are adjustable and right now are in their highest position.

    Markwrx
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    23 Nov 2011 09:15 PM

    Your MGB has about as little ground clearance as my Van Diemen :>)

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    23 Nov 2011 10:24 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Your MGB has about as little ground clearance as my Van Diemen :>)

    Mark

    Yeh, minimum ground clearance at the front crossmember is 2.5" and the oil pan and floor all the way back to the diffuser are 3". When I started construction of the car, I set 5.5" as my ground clearance because that's what a local MGB road racer was running. I soon found out that my fellow competitors in EMod were running as little as 1.5" clearance. Although I'm still a little on the high side, I need it to clear some obstacles at our local auto-x venue. I will probably have to leave the diffuser off for local events.

    loosecannon
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    29 Nov 2011 02:25 PM
    My idea to put a bellmouth in one headlight opening and use it for a ram air system was a fail, so I built something else using the opening above the radiator. Here is a pic of the aluminum piece I use to keep air from going over the top of the radiator:



    Underneath it is a large gap between the rad and the fender/rad support structure:



    I built a box which takes air from that gap and directs it towards a 4" pipe which then shoves the air through the MAP and into the engine:




    loosecannon
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    06 Dec 2011 08:24 PM
    I wanted to improve the weight balance even more so I moved the battery to the very back of the car. I built a battery box out of aluminum and incorporated it into a cover panel under the rear hatch:




    loosecannon
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    08 Dec 2011 09:53 PM
    Project update: anybody who has seen the car run knows it smokes pretty badly. The stock computer was not set-up to run the 24lb injectors I have and fuel was dumping into the cylinders. I got a custom tune using a product called Tweecer and the problem didn't go away. The Tweecer software shows real time readings of all engine sensors and my MAF sensor appeared to be faulty, so I bought a new one :( The new one showed the same low voltage and a tech at Painless (wiring harness manufacturer) said I have a bad ground.

    I re-did all the ground connections, going as far as welding bolts to the frame that are used to attach the ground straps. Still no changes in the MAF readings so I put a voltmeter on it and lo and behold, the voltage was exactly what it's supposed to be. It turns out that I got a bad version of the Tweecer software and once that was corrected, the voltage displayed correctly. Still, the engine smoked. In the process of all these checks, I discovered that I had done my initial ignition advance based on the wrong marking on the timing tab and it was around 20 degrees too advanced. Corrected that and it ran 100% better but still smoked. I assumed that it was just a bunch of oil/gas coating the inside of the exhaust and would eventually burn off. Then I noticed that my air charge temperature reading was -20 C. I was not running the car outside so how could it be -20 C degrees? I replaced the ACT sensor and voila', the smoking seems to be going away and the car runs and sounds amazing.
    Bullitt2954
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    08 Dec 2011 11:22 PM
    That would indeed be a bit more fuel than the engine would need, never coming out of "cold start".

    loosecannon
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    09 Dec 2011 11:16 AM
    A new video of me driving it around the kart track, there is much less smoke now: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF39_gv77kI
    gbeaird
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    15 Dec 2011 10:00 AM

    Neat! That whine sound is the fan? It almost sounds like you have a nasty intake vacuum leak.

    Gene Beaird,
    Pearland, Texas

    loosecannon
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    15 Dec 2011 05:16 PM
    gbeaird wrote:

    Neat! That whine sound is the fan? It almost sounds like you have a nasty intake vacuum leak.

    Gene Beaird,
    Pearland, Texas

    That's the electric fan, no worries. With the car all together, running and driving with the whole winter ahead of me, I have time to stare at it and wonder how I can make it better. This led me to purchase some software ($29.99!) which allows me to punch in all my data and it spits out results about roll center, anti-squat, roll stiffness, etc and I found some interesting things. The biggest thing is that my front roll center is 3" (good) but my rear roll center is "14 (bad). No amount of adjusting of my tri-four link suspension was going to correct this so I have decided to just chuck the whole thing and start fresh with a new, and better design. I chose a 3 link suspension with a Watts linkage because it's light, fully adjustable for roll center, squat etc and I can use all my old rod ends and bars. The 3 links will be two lower links in the same location as the current lower bars and one top link from the middle of the diff to a crossmember.

    Since I am making my own mounts, I am moving the lower front mounts so I can make the lower bars 2" longer, which reduces the arc that the rear end moves in and should make the handling more predictable. I included a picture of a Watts linkage. The red part is the crossmember that holds the pivot and the the black rods attach to each side of the diff. The center of the pivot becomes the roll center and if it's adjustable up and down, the roll center is adjustable up and down.



    Here is the new top link and the right side will be welded to the crossmember and the left side will be welded to the diff.



    And the new front brackets for the lower links, with holes cut in an arc to match the lower bars so I don't need to adjust bar length when changing mounting holes:

    47CP
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    15 Dec 2011 05:28 PM
    Mark,

    IMO, slotted adjustment works much better than the ones with the holes. In the past, whenever i have built something with the holes, I have fought it later because your only adjustment increment is 1 inch.

    You should be able to slot those pretty easily with a cutoff wheel in the grinder.

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    15 Dec 2011 05:59 PM
    47CP wrote:
    Mark,

    IMO, slotted adjustment works much better than the ones with the holes. In the past, whenever i have built something with the holes, I have fought it later because your only adjustment increment is 1 inch.

    You should be able to slot those pretty easily with a cutoff wheel in the grinder.

    DaveW

    If I find that the one hole is too high and the next is too low, I can always cut between the two with my plasma cutter. You approve of my new suspension?

    loosecannon
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    15 Dec 2011 09:06 PM
    And I had a chance to weld all the mounts into the car:




    47CP
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    15 Dec 2011 10:17 PM
    I think you will like the 3 link.

    I would cut the slots now, that will be a real bitch to get to with that car assembled.

    DaveW
    loosecannon
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    23 Dec 2011 07:44 PM
    It turns out that a Watts link will only get my rear roll center down to 6" or 7" and I want to at least match my front roll center which is 3". There is a suspension system called a Mumford link but it's overly complicated so I decided to go with a Woblink. I built a Woblink and it's not complete yet but here's a sneak peak at it. I know it's wierd looking with the two links going off to one side but it works.


    loosecannon
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    25 Dec 2011 06:49 PM
    I spent all of Christmas Day working on the bracket to hold the Woblink in place, and here it is. I also included a video which helps make sense of how the Woblink works. The bracket is made from 3/16" steel and has some stiffening done to it but because it has to take the entire side to side force of the rear suspension, I added braces that go under the diff and tie into the suspension mounts





    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OW_ofdjHfSc
    cmt52663
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    26 Dec 2011 06:50 AM

    and this is the 2nd winter that I have been entertained, amazed and educated by this thread...

    thank you, and a Merry Christmas to you.

    Cheers,

    Charlie

    Bullitt2954
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    27 Dec 2011 03:04 PM
    I concur with Charlie here.

    I also wish to add: I've noted your fabrications skills have improved quite measurably - not that they were "shoddy" to begin-with. Your work is looking very Professional. At least through photos and videos.

    The Camera does not Lie, they say!



    Markwrx
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    27 Dec 2011 08:52 PM

    +1. I am studying this process. One suggestion, a small ruler in the pictures might make things a bit clearer. The video helps a lot.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    30 Dec 2011 06:42 PM

    I punched all the numbers into my suspension calculator and it told me that I can remove both sway bars, soften the rear suspension (actually told me what motion ratio to use on the rocker arms) and set my rear roll center to 5 inches. This is all good until I went to bolt the rear wheels on and found that the passenger wheel interferes with my Woblink mount. Putting extra wheel spacers on changed my track width which required setting the roll center height to 6", which also turned out to be a problem. Above 5 inches, the top of the Woblink gets too close to the crossmember. So, I sorted out how to get the bracket to clear the wheel but I still want to have the ability to raise the roll center above 5 inches so I built a curved crossmember out of 1/8" sheet metal and put a sleeve inside where it attaches to the old crossmember. It's not welded in yet but here's an early look at it.

    loosecannon
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    04 Jan 2012 06:33 PM
    I welded the new crossmember in and decided that adjusting the roll center was going to be too difficult to do between runs once the diffuser and everything was bolted on. I built a screw jack into the crossmember and now I simply have to turn the rod up or down and it moves the roll center. Since I weighed the car last I added a ram air system, a tach, bigger battery, belly pan and the new rear suspension but removed both sway bars-this stuff added 108 lbs, which is disappointing. Still, I think the benefits of all the changes far offset the extra weight.
    loosecannon
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    06 Jan 2012 02:00 AM
    I needed to build some custom tools to use on the car so today I tackled a couple of tools that will make working on the car a whole lot easier. The first thing I needed was a way to jack up the back end of the car, there was simply no place to put a floor jack. I built a folding steel piece that slides into the rear tow hook holes and has a round plate that fits perfectly onto my floor jack.



    The rear rocker arms have 12 different motion ratio settings and the front have 16 and getting an accurate measurement of how much a given movement of the wheel equates to movement of the shock has been difficult. It's very important for the suspension software I use that I know exactly how much the shocks move for every inch the wheels move up and down. I built this telescoping tool that bolts in the place of a shock and has what's left of a Vernier caliper welded to the side so getting measurements down to half a mm is possible. I just have to note the length of the tool then lift a wheel a known amount and check the tool again, which tells me the motion ratio.

    loosecannon
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    10 Jan 2012 01:23 PM
    Project update: I drove it for the first time with the new rear suspension and it feels completely different. The terminal understeer of before is completely gone and I no longer have to punch the throttle to get around the tight kart track. Somehow the steering effort is much reduced and I haven't quite figured that out. I will be tinkering with camber, roll center and track width so there is more testing to do. I took a video of the rear suspension while I did some laps and even with two lights on it, the GoPro is still a little dim-I included the video if you want to see it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-K5dMyHfRg
    Markwrx
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    10 Jan 2012 05:53 PM

    Very good. I bet it is very satisfying to have all your work and design turn out so well.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    10 Jan 2012 06:02 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Very good. I bet it is very satisfying to have all your work and design turn out so well.

    Mark

    My optimism grows but with everything hand built and untested, there is a lot that can still go wrong. It does give me an enormous sense of satisfaction that this thing I created feels so good already. I wish I could get the time off work so I could just load it onto the trailer and drive south until I hit an autocross.

    loosecannon
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    11 Jan 2012 06:41 PM
    I needed to find my center of gravity so I followed the directions on Longacres website http://www.longacreracing.com/artic...p?ARTID=22 and punched in the numbers. I inflated the tires to 40 psi and put the car on the scales with me in the car. I wrote down what the total weight and front weight was then lifted the rear of the car up exactly 12 inches and checked the front weight again. Once I punched in these numbers as well as front tire circumference and wheelbase, the calculator told me that my center of gravity is 17.35 inches off the ground.





    Markwrx
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    11 Jan 2012 08:47 PM

    Very interesting. When you say the calculator told you 17.35 in, was that the Longacres display unit?

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    11 Jan 2012 08:51 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Very interesting. When you say the calculator told you 17.35 in, was that the Longacres display unit?

    Mark

    Yes, that's what the Longacre calculator said.

    Markwrx
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    11 Jan 2012 09:12 PM

    Thats what I figured. Looks like I need to find some Longacres scales to figure mine.

    loosecannon
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    11 Jan 2012 09:59 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Thats what I figured. Looks like I need to find some Longacres scales to figure mine.

    Nah, any scales will do.

    cashmo
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    11 Jan 2012 11:28 PM
    Markwrx
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    12 Jan 2012 11:39 AM
    cashmo wrote:
    Any scales and this or a similar webpage.

    Great web page. Now I need to get my car to some scales.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    12 Jan 2012 02:18 PM
    I did not substitute solid links for the shocks, this would change the results slightly.
    loosecannon
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    17 Jan 2012 09:04 PM
    As most of you know, I put 15" wheels on the car because I needed to clear the brakes. Then I found out that the radial slicks I planned on running were actually no good for autocross because the radials don't like rapid turning (such as a slalom) like the bias ply slicks. The only tire company which has 15" bias ply slicks in the right widths is Avon, and they are more expensive than Hoosiers or Goodyears and have no contingency.

    The price difference between 13's and 15's will pay for a set of new rims so, I broke down and ordered a set of 13" rims from Diamond Racing wheels. I took a chance that I would be able to modify the brakes to fit. The wheels arrived and with some minor tweeking, I got them to fit over the brakes. Then it came time to order tires, and problems arose. The Goodyear or Hoosier tires that are supposed to be the hot ticket in D/EMod are actually designed for Formula Atlantic cars. This means the front tires are 9.5 inches wide and the rear are 13 inches wide. This is not a problem for cars like a certain green Bugeye which has only 41% of it's 1850 lbs on the front tires, but I have 49% of 2250 lbs on my front tires.

    Now, I can make the car work on these skinny front tires, provided that I don't overload tires designed for a car 650 lbs lighter than my own, but they would be a compromise. I started to look again at the Avons, which to be fair to Avon, cost about the same as Goodyears or Hoosiers as long as you stick to 13 inch wheels. However, the Avon rep advised me that the 13 inch tires are designed for cars up to 1600 lbs and the 15 inch tires would work better for me. So, I decided to go with the Avon 10.7/21.5-15 in front and 11/23.5-15 in back. At some point I may want some rain tires and I can put those on the 13 inch wheels.
    loosecannon
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    18 Jan 2012 06:05 PM


    Despite my best efforts to move the steering rack back more, I couldn't move it enough to get any Ackerman out of it. Ackerman is when the inside front tire turns sharper than the outside front tire which is important in tight turns. The solution was to make the steering arms a little longer, which increases my turn radius (in theory) but will actually make the car turn better and easier (Briget will like that). I started by taking the MGB steering arms off and making a template:



    Then I moved the part where the tie rod bolts to over one inch and clamped it in place. I used 1/2 inch wall tubing and flat bar to make the new arm:



    Here are all the pieces, ready for welding:



    And installed on the car:



    I haven't driven it yet but now I can push the car with one hand when the wheels are cranked.
    Markwrx
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    19 Jan 2012 11:35 AM

    Very nice! I bet it is a bit lighter, too. I used to have an MGB. I did not realize they are so crude.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    19 Jan 2012 04:50 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Very nice! I bet it is a bit lighter, too. I used to have an MGB. I did not realize they are so crude.

    Mark

    The suspension on a stock MGB is dreadful but I guess for it's time, it was normal

    loosecannon
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    30 Jan 2012 06:21 PM
    I took the car for a test drive and after doing some rapid sawing back and forth of the steering wheel, I was not convinced that it would be possible to drive through a slalom without moving my hands on the steering wheel. A cheap and easy fix is adding an Afco 2:1 steering quickener between the steering wheel and rack and pinion steering. It is a beautiful little piece and weighs only 1.8 lbs. Here's a pic of the quickener, it's the blue thing in the middle:



    Here's a video of before and after:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjgcCajqJuM
    Markwrx
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    12 Feb 2012 07:34 PM

    Loose, Its been almost 2 weeks. Are you ok?

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    13 Feb 2012 03:31 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Loose, Its been almost 2 weeks. Are you ok?

    Mark

    It seems like a long time for an update, doesn't it? Nothing very interesting has happened, just a few mods to the front suspension and spoiler. I just got poly bushings for the front suspension so those will be going in this week and I am getting a much more powerful engine ready to drop in. I will be pulling that apart this week to install a better cam.

    loosecannon
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    13 Feb 2012 08:43 PM
    A bit of background. When the Jag engine let go, a generous friend gave me a recently rebuilt Ford 5.0 that was supposed to have good pistons, cam and ported/polished heads. The problem was that it did not have a roller cam but just an old school flat tappet cam. I found a super cheap but high mileage 1986 5.0 in the paper that had the OEM roller cam in it so I bought that, cleaned it up and stuck it in the car. I had ideas to put a better cam and heads on the 86 5.0 but it turns out to be the one year where Ford used flat top pistons and only 86 heads will work. I decided to pull apart the rebuilt 5.0 out and check out exactly what I have. The bad news is that the heads are a small port, small valve design and reports of being ported/polished were greatly exaggerated. The good news is that the block is set up for a roller cam, the pistons are high quality and have valve reliefs(for big valve heads) and the crosshatch pattern is still in the cylinder walls like it was rebuilt last week. I think I will be hunting for a deal on some good heads and a really aggressive roller cam. Here's some pics of the small ports and the good pistons:







    loosecannon
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    14 Feb 2012 06:51 PM
    Update: I have a set of ProComp aluminum heads, Comp Cams steel roller rockers and XE282HR grind roller cam on the way (thanks Phil at www.fasttoys.net). The heads have 2.02/1.6 valves, bigger ports and are 42 lbs less than my iron heads. The cam is pretty wild with .565 in/.574 ex lift, 280 in/292 ex duration. I have no idea what power this combo will make but It should be significantly higher than what I have now. I have been searching Ford forums for what others with these parts have made on the dyno or on the dragstrip and based on that, I am hoping for 275-300 hp at the wheels.
    lowside67
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    15 Feb 2012 01:27 AM
    Perhaps a silly question but for the price of the 5.0 plus aluminum heads and all the parts you bought, couldn't you have just run an LS1? Lighter... more reliable (stock)... much higher power output potential...

    Mark
    Bullitt2954
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    15 Feb 2012 11:28 AM
    lowside67 wrote:
    Perhaps a silly question but for the price of the 5.0 plus aluminum heads and all the parts you bought, couldn't you have just run an LS1? Lighter... more reliable (stock)... much higher power output potential...

    Mark

    Recall that this started with a ~650lb Jaguar V12.

    This is not a "typical" build - it is a "Hey! I bet I can make THIS work on it!" build.

    I'm not detracting from the LS1 - Great motors - but EVERYBODY AND THEIR BROTHER HAS ONE SHOEHORNED INTO SOMETHING.

    loosecannon
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    15 Feb 2012 02:19 PM
    lowside67 wrote:
    Perhaps a silly question but for the price of the 5.0 plus aluminum heads and all the parts you bought, couldn't you have just run an LS1? Lighter... more reliable (stock)... much higher power output potential...

    Mark

    I know everybody has a story of a cheap and complete LS1 they found and put in a car, and I started to believe the hype. Except a local guy who specializes in LSx swaps told me about how many of his customers have been burned on LS engines coming out of flood damaged cars, and the real costs of a wiring harness,flywheel,bellhousing and clutch to work with my T5 and suddenly I'm looking at $6000+ to put an LS1 in my car. I simply didn't have the funds at the time to even start getting into an LS1 and maybe in the end I will wish I had but if we are talking about going back in time, I would have purchased a Legends car and have $10,000 in the bank right now.

    lowside67
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    16 Feb 2012 10:22 PM
    Fair enough... the LS1 is my car was not cheap, but I also splurged on a lot of parts. Just curious. Moving on!
    loosecannon
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    27 Feb 2012 06:06 PM
    Some new parts arrived! :) The new heads weigh a total of 46lbs less than the iron ones and have much bigger valves and ports. The aluminum flywheel weighs only 12 lbs and the roller rockers are little jewels.













    Markwrx
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    28 Feb 2012 11:25 AM

    Very nice! Aluminum cleans up real well. I ordered an alum. head for my FF and I save 19 lb from one of the highest points in the car. Unfortunately no larger valves are allowed.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    28 Feb 2012 11:57 PM
    I just hope I didn't choose the wrong cam. It's pretty aggressive but I chose it because I want to move my powerband up because lots of hp is easier to manage in a Mod car than lots of torque. Many people on the Mustang forum report 360+ hp at the wheels with the same cam and similar heads, intake and compression ratio. I think that's pretty optimistic but who knows?
    jdchristianson
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    01 Mar 2012 08:11 AM

    So long as it makes noise out the pipes when you hit the start button it will work. May not be perfect but it will work. How many feet of snow have to melt before your first event when you can start having fun with this baby? We are down to about 45 days until the first IA Region event. My son gets to run this weekend in TN....maybe we should have moved with them?????



    loosecannon
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    01 Mar 2012 10:12 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    So long as it makes noise out the pipes when you hit the start button it will work. May not be perfect but it will work. How many feet of snow have to melt before your first event when you can start having fun with this baby? We are down to about 45 days until the first IA Region event. My son gets to run this weekend in TN....maybe we should have moved with them?????

    The first time I will get to actually drive it is the first weekend of May at a lapping session on a road course. There is an area large enough to set up a slalom and get a feel for the car so it should be a good shakedown. I'm confident in the handling and power but with a thousand home built parts there is a thousand opportunities for something to go wrong. I'll feel better after a few events without drama.

    loosecannon
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    06 Mar 2012 09:53 PM
    I have been working on the car but it's been a zoo at the track with a roof that is leaking, staff being let go, karts dripping brake fluid all over the place and changing the direction of the track. So, Briget cleaned and painted the new engine (Panther Pink, of course), I have installed the cam, cam drive, oil pick up and pan. The old engine is out of the car and I am stripping off what I need for the new one. Here's a pic of the mayhem that is my work space:

    Markwrx
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    07 Mar 2012 11:25 AM

    Do I want to know what that big pipe wrench is for(lower right)?

    loosecannon
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    07 Mar 2012 03:49 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Do I want to know what that big pipe wrench is for(lower right)?

    I use that to put in spark plugs. I know it's harder but I like to do it old school ;)

    Markwrx
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    07 Mar 2012 10:21 PM

    loosecannon wrote:

    Markwrx wrote:

    Do I want to know what that big pipe wrench is for(lower right)?

    I use that to put in spark plugs. I know it's harder but I like to do it old school ;)

    Good one.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    15 Mar 2012 03:02 PM
    I changed the suspension bushings and balljoints. The shafts holding the lower control arms have been there since 1968 so they needed some rather unfriendly persuasion. The old rubber bushings



    And the new ones:



    Check out the old school ball joint on the right, with shims for adjusting.

    loosecannon
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    20 Mar 2012 05:43 PM
    The GT40 intake manifold I have is an improvement over the stock Mustang intake but doesn't flow as well as the aftermarket intakes. That is, unless it's ported and then it makes just as much power as a good aftermarket intake. There is a fella in Texas who has spent a good deal of time figuring out how to port the GT40 and has a whole write up on it, found here: http://www.eectuning.org/forums/vie...mp;t=14018

    I followed these steps for my own intake and hope to get it on a dyno soon to confirm results. Here are some before and after pics:






    I had to open up the intake gasket just to match the head and intake ports.
    loosecannon
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    20 Mar 2012 07:53 PM
    I bolted the intake on and took a picture down one of the ports, you can see how it lines up with the port on the head:

    loosecannon
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    27 Mar 2012 02:01 PM
    With the new heads, I had to recheck pushrod length to avoid premature valve failure. I did this by disassembling a lifter and putting washers inside it to simulate a fully pumped up lifter. I also cut a stock pushrod in half, threaded the inside of it and added a 6mm threaded rod so it was adjustable for length. Then I took a sharpie to the top of the valve stem and installed the roller tipped rockers as per the Comp Cams directions. After spinning the engine over two full rotations, a line was formed in the sharpie ink across the top of the valve stem. By adjusting the pushrod length, I could change where the line formed on the valve stem and once it was right across the middle of the stem, I measured the pushrod and ordered more just like it. Once they arrived, I installed all the rocker arms and here is a picture:

    loosecannon
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    02 Apr 2012 08:56 PM
    I thought I saw a light at the end of the tunnel but it turned out to be a train coming right at me. I was bolting the upper intake manifold on and the book calls for 34 Nm torque. My 3/8" clicker torque wrench has the gradients etched into the shaft (10,20,30, etc) and smaller gradients (1,2,3 etc) in the part that twists around. The top gradient in the shaft is 29 Nm so I turned the handle up to that, then added 5 more to get 34 Nm, the recommended torque. The wrench definitely clicked but then I felt a different sort of click, the pictures explain the rest.




    jdchristianson
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    03 Apr 2012 08:33 AM

    arrrgghh....Stupid cars.



    loosecannon
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    11 Apr 2012 03:51 PM
    I started it for the first time and took a video. I didn't realize that I could manually turn up the idle so it's pretty lumpy. I don't know if it comes across in the video but it definitely sounds far healthier than the old engine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8aUl_3KWYjQ
    jdchristianson
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    12 Apr 2012 08:18 AM

    Nice, getting very close to the fun part.

    loosecannon
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    12 Apr 2012 05:28 PM
    jdchristianson wrote:

    Nice, getting very close to the fun part.

    Yes, today I am going over all the nuts and bolts and also making sure nothing is rubbing then hope to bolt the fenders on and maybe even drive it outside this weekend. I drove it around the track and it feels very healthy. here's the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWx21BHeKWg

    loosecannon
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    17 Apr 2012 06:14 PM
    I checked over all the bolts to make sure they were tight and I replaced some with shorter ones to save a few ounces. I also zip tied any loose wires and hoses while I was in there. Since I do not have an air filter, I added a fine aluminum mesh to the opening of the air box to catch anything big enough to cause damage.



    My old alternator tensioner was actually attached to the frame because I had solid engine mounts, but I was worried that if there were any flex in the mounts or frame, my belt would loosen and slip off. So I built a new tensioner that is all attached to the engine:



    And bolted the fenders, spoiler and grille on, so I am essentially good to go.



    74_5.0L_Z
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    17 Apr 2012 07:25 PM

    I see from your picture that you have the water pump turning forward (the same direction as the crankshaft). The stock Mustang water pump of that vintage has an impeller that requires reverse rotation. So, unless you have acquired a forward rotation pump and timing chain cover, you may have overheating problems. I'm sure this is a detail that you have sorted out, but I thought I'd ask.

    I can't wait to hear how you do at the next event. Good Luck.

    loosecannon
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    17 Apr 2012 10:12 PM
    74_5.0L_Z wrote:

    I see from your picture that you have the water pump turning forward (the same direction as the crankshaft). The stock Mustang water pump of that vintage has an impeller that requires reverse rotation. So, unless you have acquired a forward rotation pump and timing chain cover, you may have overheating problems. I'm sure this is a detail that you have sorted out, but I thought I'd ask.

    I can't wait to hear how you do at the next event. Good Luck.

    Water pump is off a 1980 Lincoln Town car, turns in the same direction as the crank. I have had the car idling for 20 minutes without overheating and driven it around the track without the fan going and it stays at 165(the thermostat temp)

    loosecannon
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    18 Apr 2012 01:38 PM
    I need to test everything I can before the first event so I backed the car up to the acid etched part of the kart track, revved it to 3000 rpm and dumped the clutch. I did this four times in a row and everything felt great and nothing broke. It also launches HARD. This new T5 trans grinds going into reverse but I discovered later that many T5's do this and the cure is to shift into 5th before going into reverse. And FYI I am running the recommended trans fluid in it and the clutch is adjusted properly. Here's videos from different angles of the launches, check out the sparks coming off the tires, it's from metal shavings stuck in the slicks:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82IvLIbLO8c
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWhljJS2Nnc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSEKdH0-l6w
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6IYDQ8ppcQ
    loosecannon
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    26 Apr 2012 06:10 PM
    I added a heat shield between the muffler and fuel filter, just in case there may be a heat soak issue.



    And I was concerned about Briget being strong enough to rapidly turn the steering wheel so I switched from a 2:1 steering quickener to a 1.5:1. I can switch between the two quickeners by just undoing a couple of bolts.

    loosecannon
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    06 May 2012 08:38 AM
    I had my first shakedown test of the Pink Panther on the road course and it went very well. Nothing broke and the car has no strange handling vices but I learned some interesting things, like that the diffuser really works and you can feel the extra grip with it. The ignition would start to break up above 5000 rpm, which prevented me from exceeding 110 mph (175 kmh) on the straight. Up until that point it pulls like a freight train and once the tires are warm, I can stand on the throttle coming out of turns as long as I am in 2nd gear or higher. The rear of the car jumps going over bumps and I will try to tame that with shock tuning. Neither Briget or myself were brave enough to drive the car at even 8/10's. We both felt that the limits of the car are a lot higher than ours but we will be ready to push in Lincoln.

    The rear tires rub on the inside of the wheel well but a spacer should fix that. The aluminum mesh I used in the grille does not let enough air through but the coolant temp only rose too high after 3 or 4 hard laps, and dropped as soon as I took it easy. Even when I push the car too far, it comes back fairly easily but does get twitchy above 100 mph. I attribute this to the aero on the car, I think it starts to push one end down harder than the other at high speeds. On the way home I called the guy who did my engine tune and he immediately diagnosed my problem: I have the wrong spark plugs in the car. If it clears up the misfire, that car is going to be seriously fun.

    It was a lot of fun and if we can move our hands fast enough, it should do ok at autocross. However, the pivot cones are going to be a problem but fortunately, that is only a local problem. I only have video of my very first drive of the car and Briget's first 3 drives because the battery in my GoPro crapped out. Here's the first video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Z9BSx_osg
    Bullitt2954
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    09 May 2012 07:53 PM
    BOOYah!

    That's the Shizznit! It's the Return of the Pink Panther.....

    loosecannon
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    11 May 2012 12:51 AM
    Today was dyno day and things went great. A stock 5.0 makes 165 hp at the wheels so with aluminum heads and new cam I was hoping for 265 at the wheels, and that is also what a computer simulation said I would get. I got 264.8 hp @ 5307 rpm and 271.6 ft/lb @ 4839 rpm and a power curve that rises extremely smooth and linear. It showed no signs of a misfire so either the new plugs fixed it or my ram air system is so effective that it's putting the engine into a lean condition at speed. Here's video of the dyno session and a picture of the power curve. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtKh...e=youtu.be

    Markwrx
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    11 May 2012 11:54 AM

    Very nice. How much does the Pink P weigh?

    Mark


    loosecannon
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    12 May 2012 11:48 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    Very nice. How much does the Pink P weigh?

    Mark

    2213 lbs with me in it. So, even though we actually broke the car today, I think our first autocross was a success. I drove first and the car really, really bounced around on the rough surface we use and understeered everywhere. I didn't know what was going on until I watched Briget drive, and it looked to me like the car was bouncing off the bump stops. I stiffened the rear suspension a couple of steps and went out for my second run. It was a lot better and started to go through slaloms much easier. For my 3rd run I stiffened the rear another step and also stiffened the front by one step. It was even more controlled but the rear still really bounced in a couple of places. The high speed compression was already at full soft so I adjusted it to full hard but left the low speed compression and rebound at full soft and sent Briget out on her run. Going over the first massive bump on the course, the bracket holding the short arm of the Woblink broke, allowing the rear suspension to move around-our day was done. I got the car back to the shop and took a good look at it. There was enough flex right at the end of the bracket that after Friday's track day and todays autocross, the piece failed from constant flexing. I boxed it so flex has been eliminated and we won't have that problem again. Here's a pic of the broken link:



    The data from my 3rd run shows that the car was pulling .6 G at 50 mph (the only time I got on the gas in 2nd gear) and was hitting over 1 G in either direction so it has potential but I certainly was not getting the most out of it. I'm confident that it will be a lot better on a smooth surface without pivot cones. Just check out the video and you will get an idea how violent it was inside the car.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpaycLEkkTE

    loosecannon
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    13 May 2012 11:12 PM
    I was still trying to understand what the rear suspension was doing (other than breaking) so today I put zip ties on the shock shaft to see how much compression they were getting, and I aimed a camera at them. The car was really unstable under braking but was better over the big bumps.

    When I got back, the zip ties were shoved up against the bump stops. I changed the high and low speed compression settings from full soft to full stiff and sent Briget out. When Briget was on course I could see the axle moving back and forth and for a moment thought that the newly fixed bracket broke again, but that was not it. The zip ties were not up against the bump stops this time so that was positive.

    Once in the pits I tried to determine how the axle was moving back and forth and couldn't find anything at first but once I had Briget shake the car back and forth really hard, I found a fracture in a different bracket. Obviously the forces on the Woblink are greater than a typical lateral link like a Panhard or Watts because these brackets were pretty robust and were still snapping solid steel plate.

    I know from trying different roll center heights at the lapping session and autocross that the car likes it set above 8" high, so I am going to remove the troublesome Woblink and install an adjustable Panhard around that height. Here is a very interesting video of the rear suspension during a run, once you stop being mesmerized by the shocks moving around, notice how much the diff is moving back and forth due to the broken Woblink.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Wjl...e=youtu.be
    Markwrx
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    14 May 2012 11:00 AM

    That is painful to watch. Good luck with the cure.

    Mark

    loosecannon
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    14 May 2012 02:45 PM
    Markwrx wrote:

    That is painful to watch. Good luck with the cure.

    Mark

    I have already cut out all the Woblink stuff and am waiting for the Panhard stuff to be delivered. I am putting the rear sway bar back in to allow for easy balance adjustments (formerly done with r/c adjustments)

    genecooley
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    14 May 2012 06:04 PM

    I would have a good look at the rear tires and wheels to check for cuts or damage.

    Gene Cooley--E/M Fiat 600

    loosecannon
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    14 May 2012 10:06 PM
    genecooley wrote:

    I would have a good look at the rear tires and wheels to check for cuts or damage.

    Gene Cooley--E/M Fiat 600

    They just got a good rubbing and are a throwaway set, we have a new set of Avons for the next event

    loosecannon
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