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Last Post 10 Jun 2016 10:50 AM by  jwharnish
Honda insight SMF clarification
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catapultkid
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23 Aug 2015 04:46 PM
    Hello all,

    Couple of us at the local club where wondering if swapping the drivetrain on a early G1 insight, leaving the interior but removing the batteries would keep the insight in SMF?

    The removal of the hybrid system was what was in really in contention. Car would still weigh roughly the same with more foward bias.

    Anyone have any thoughts on this. Im tempted to build a g1 for smf to compete locally.

    Thanks
    Paul
    WrongWheelDrive
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    24 Aug 2015 05:44 PM
    Sounds fine to me, engine and drivetrain are unlimited
    catapultkid
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    25 Aug 2015 06:27 PM
    To bad I'd have to weigh it back down. I'm having a hard time believing the 2013+ minimum weights. 1850 +250 for the k20. Wow a 2100lb insight.
    Der Wankel
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    01 Dec 2015 06:23 PM
    Well, SMF is for slow fwd cars.
    If your fwd car is not slow (exceeds the displacement to weight limit) it can go into SM or SSM. Those classes have specific weight allowances for AWD, RWD and FWD with respective lower minimum weights for each drivetrain configurations.

    Again, like SMF- SM is for slower cars than SSM, if you exceed the SM displacement to weight you go into SSM.

    With an Insight you are not too limited by mechanical skill to FWD in SM/SSM either as the popular Honda engine families have a transaxle with rear power take off for RWD or AWD configurations.

    If you want the absolute lightest weight and are very mechanically adept, you could use a Honda motorcycle engine/transmission and your choice of drivetrain layout.
    For example a dual clutch VFR1200F has fast shifting close ration transmission and 100ftlbs torque and shaft drive for easy use in any drivetrain layout.

    The Insight is fairly wide for autocross, you could also look into the old Honda N/Z600s (1,300lbs stock weight). Their engine bay is very short though (16") which provides its own issues.

    Neither the Insight nor N/Z600 has decent suspension though.
    Not sure how creative you want to get with suspension rules . "Suspension" is free using stock pick-up points; "suspension" is defined as anything that moves when the wheel/tire is deflected by a bump or the shock upper mounts. So you could make a rear "subframe" to mount multilink rear susp as long as the "subframe" is also sprung off the stock suspension points. You could possibly make double wishbone front suspension as long as the upper arm mount is also the upper shock mount (cantilever shocks even).

    Competitors in SM/SSM usually are not protest happy as the classes really are about innovation within the rules and the built in displacement to weight limits and the wide range of good engine/chassis combinations available mean you have great choices available. No one has to build a dog, its on you if you do.
    drdisque
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    01 Dec 2015 09:18 PM
    SM/SSM/SMF only allow Automotive engines - no motorcycle engines.
    Der Wankel
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    08 Dec 2015 01:02 PM
    Was there a clarification on this via Fast Track or other source you are quoting?

    Alll Prepared and DM, EM (modified production vehicles)Modified classes DO have the rule you indicate.

    SM reads-

    D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems,
    etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:
    1. Engine block
    (or housings of rotary engines)
    must be a production
    unit manufactured and badged the same as the original standard
    or optional engine for that model. Badges that exist as marketing
    aliases for the manufacturer will be recognized as equivalents.
    Swaps involving makes related only at a corporate level are not
    recognized as equivalents. Models produced as a joint venture between
    manufacturers may utilize any engine from any partner in the joint
    venture, provided that an engine from the desired manufacturer
    was a factory option in that particular model (e.g., Eagle Talon, available
    originally with either a Mitsubishi or Chrysler engine, may use
    any motor from Chrysler or Mitsubishi). This allows engine blocks
    manufactured as production units for sale in other countries such as
    Japan or Germany.
    drdisque
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    10 Dec 2015 02:20 PM
    The rule I was thinking of was actually from XP:

    7. Engine and Drivetrain
    a. Engines must be derived from production automobiles. Motorcycle,
    snowmobile, marine, or other engines of non-automobile design are
    not permitted.

    If it's not allowed in XP in all rationality it shouldn't be allowed in SM. A letter of clarification I think would clear that up.
    Der Wankel
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    11 Dec 2015 12:10 PM
    I completely agree that a logical progression of modifications allowed in classes would be nice, but unfortunately that is not how SCCA works.

    Example- excerpt from the Prepared class rules-


    17.1 AUTHORIZED MODIFICATIONS
    The modifications defined here in the Prepared Category are the only allowed modifications.
    The rules in this Section stand on their own; they
    do not build upon the Street, Street TouringĀ®, or Street Prepared category rules.

    Modifications shall not be made unless specifically authorized
    herein. No permitted component/modification shall additionally perform a
    prohibited function. If the rules do not specifically authorize a modification, it is not permitted.
    Der Wankel
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    11 Dec 2015 01:55 PM
    Next year the Suzuki Cappuccino will be legal to register in the US under the 25 year rule (NHTSA crash standards waived).

    This means they will be legal for SSM (via 2 seat car eligible for Street Prepared Class).
    Don't worry, you don't have to go through the work of registering it; it just has to be capable of being licensed in US.

    This will open up the 55" wide Suzuki Hayabusa swapped Suzuki Cappuccinos (yes, it is a thing) for SSM at a minimum weight of 1,668lbs (a tiny bit over stock weight)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEF329uKP8Q
    drdisque
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    11 Dec 2015 04:04 PM
    If someone else doesn't write a letter on this (preferably someone who actually races in SM) I will. A swap like that clearly isn't in the intent or spirit of SM in my opinion.
    Der Wankel
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    11 Dec 2015 06:14 PM
    Intent and spirit of SM.

    16. STREET MODIFIED CATEGORY

    16.0.A. Purpose
    To serve as a membership recruitment and retention tool by providing a natural competition outlet for auto enthusiasts using streetable sport sedans equiped with drivetrain and suspension modifications that are beyond those allowed in the Street Prepared category.


    A Hayabusa swapped Cappuccino is streetable and the drivetrain is modified beyond the scope of a Street Prepared legal Cappuccino in all the ways allowed by SM/SSM. If a driver shows up in it she/he should be welcomed, recruited and retained.

    Why limit the scope of cars in SSM just when it is finally starting to diversify beyond the one year of the one make of the one model of the one package car that has won SSM all but 2 years since 2004 (1993 Mazda RX-7 R1).

    Do we want to preserve that singular vehicle's dominance? I race one and I still think the answer is no.

    Edit- more Hayabusa swapped Cappuccino eye-candy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSB3jl-CIZI
    drdisque
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    11 Dec 2015 09:40 PM
    You make a valid point. I still think a clarification would be helpful if you want to encourage builds like this.
    Der Wankel
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    11 Dec 2015 10:37 PM
    Just for kicks I calculated rear wheel torque at 60mph in the theoretical Hayabusa Cappuccino (using a 205rwhp dyno chart) and geared down to top out 41mph 1st and 103mph 6th gear (7:1 final drive).

    You could gear it down to lower mph, but it will get silly shifting that often even with paddle shifters.

    At 60mph (9,500rpm 3rd gear) it is putting 1169ftlbs through a 23" tall tire (275/35-15). Divided by its weight (1818lbs w/ driver) that is only 0.64ftlbs/lb power to weight ratio.
    That is after coming up from 1010ftlbs at 32mph (5,000rpm 3rd) or an even sadder 0.56ftlbs/lb ratio.

    For example, my 2650lb w/ driver SSM FC at 60mph (6,800rmp 2nd gear) is putting 2586ftlbs through a 24.6" tall tire for a 0.98ftlbs/lb power to weight ratio.

    That is after coming down (I know weird rotary I built) from 3249ftlbs at 32mph (3,600rpm 2nd) for a 1.22ftlbs/lb ratio.

    The Hayabusa Cappuccino better make the most of its 55" width (really 60" with 275s on) because it has low torque even with crazy gearing advantage.

    The 51" wide (really 57" w/ 275s) 1,275lb FWD Honda N600 I already own is looking slightly better, I will crunch those #s with a VFR1200F engine.
    Der Wankel
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    07 Jan 2016 02:05 PM
    So, Honda motorcycle is going to have even less torque.

    Since we can't make a competitive power/weight motorcycle engine SM/SSM car, I went back to thinking about how to make a fun one.

    1,6000lbs rwd N600 is the car I would rather drive on the street and allows for safety gear for street and track.
    CBR1000rr engine will barely fit longitudinally mounted in N600 engine bay with new subframe.
    Driveline to rear mounted VW transaxle with bellhousing cut off.
    Trans mounting to unibody free as long as it does not reinforce chassis.
    De Dion rear end using stock N600 leaf spring rear suspension mounting points (like Lancia Aurelia GT) allows for keeping straight axle rear allowances for more suspension points (location with watts/panhard).

    The VW transmission would be an in car quick change rear end to really help the flexibility of the motorcycle close transmission ratios.

    1st gear rear= 21 to 41mph 1st to 6th (gymkhana gears)
    2nd gear rear= 38m to 76mph 1st to 6th (auto-x gears)
    3rd gear rear= 62 to 124mph 1st to 6th (hillclimb/kart track gears)
    4th gear rear= 88 to 176mph 1st to 6th (5,000rpm cruise @ 68mph freeway)
    drdisque
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    03 Feb 2016 11:07 AM
    Finally got around to writing a letter to the SEB/SMAC, got a note back the next day saying that imported cars are not eligible for SM/SSM.
    drdisque
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    05 Feb 2016 05:40 PM
    I received further clarification that unless the JDM car has a USDM counterpart (which would make it eligible for DM/EM under the "appearance" rule), it would go straight to AM, with the caveat that regions are free to class cars where they wish for regional competitions.

    I also confirmed that there is nothing specifically prohibiting same-manufacturer motorcycle or industrial engines in SM. Although if such a combination did become competitive, it's expected that there would be a rule proposal to close that loophole.
    jwharnish
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    10 Jun 2016 10:50 AM
    Paul;

    SMF for an early insight would not be an issue with the k motor/tranny swap. The potential problem area is the subframe work required for the k swap. Part of the swap involves additional subframe additions for the swap. You also have a problem with the rear suspension on those cars. Not a real good suspension for solo. Shocks are the problem area, way too short for any decent shock to be used, bad angle also. No good choices to address shock issue.
    I had an early insight and looked at this swap for a street car. That is a good swap, although expensive, but for a solo car, not so good.


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