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Last Post 11 Apr 2017 02:56 PM by  Grintch
THIS seems like a really bad idea...
 13 Replies
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Zauskycop
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20 May 2010 01:01 PM
    http://www.scca.org/documents/Fastr...e-club.pdf

    SUGGESTED RULES FOR NEXT YEAR

    The following subjects will be referred to the Board of Directors for approval. Address

    all comments, both for and against, to the Club Racing Board. It is the BoD’s policy to

    withhold voting on a rules change until there has been input from the membership on

    the presented rules. Member input is suggested and encouraged. Please send your

    comments via the form at http://www.crbscca.com/

    GCR:

    2. #855 (CRB) Mandatory seat back braces for all seats

    In 9.3.41, delete: “Seats homologated to and mounted in accordance with FIA standard 8855-1999 or FIA Standard 8862-2009 or higher need not have the seat back attached to the roll structure. The homologation labels must be visible.” [The CRB has been made aware of deficiencies in mounting of FIA homologated seats that would be mitigated by the additionof a seat back brace.]
    Matt93SE
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    21 May 2010 08:27 PM
    What's your problem with it? seems like a valid idea to me. :shrug:
    Zauskycop
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    22 May 2010 08:35 AM

    Are FIA seats tested with back braces? No, they are tested to be mounted via the supplied mounts (IE side or bottom mounts).

    What standard does the SCCA have that shows back braces are safer than FIA standards?

    What testing has the SCCA done on the seats?

    How are we fixing this problem of seat mounts on the floor being inadequate by putting a back brace on?

    Is there room in some cars to even put a back brace on? No, some drivers in spec miatas drive with their seat all the way back on the roll cage

    This rule is poorly thought out, can have some horrible implications if these "mandated back braces" void the homologated standards (which they will) on FIA seats. Call Recaro, call any of the seat manufacturers (members have already) and NONE of them recommend a back brace...least of all one that drills into the seat and wrecking its integrity.

    davebs14
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    25 May 2010 01:23 PM

    I'm with Tracy on this 100%. As someone who uses FIA seats (like all big race car teams) I do NOT want to add a damn back brace. This is just an example of some overzealous tech inspecting a$$hats thinking they know better than the FIA. FIA seats are designed to work they way they are. If profesional racers can use an FIA seat with no back brace in a 160mph plus crash...why can some SM and showroom stock SCCA folks not?

    Yet ANOTHER example of the idiocy that runs rampant in SCCA and continues to drive NASA's #s up each year.

    I'll write a letter.

    Matt93SE
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    27 May 2010 07:52 AM

    The other side of that coin is some of the janky seat installations I've seen. you can't just weld a 3" fender washer to the floor of the car and stick a bolt through it and mount an FIA seat. Yes, I've seen that. soon as the car goes off track and bounces through the dirt, the bolts get sheared off and you're then a bowling ball inside your own car.

    I may be generalizing things, but how many cars do you think CRB had to see with poorly installed FIA seats before they made this change? We all know its hard as hell to get a rule changed to our benefit, so what makes you think the CRB just decided to do this on a whim? Are their rules REALLY written by overzealous tech inspector a$$hats that play with cars made from iron pipe and rebar?

    Should SCCA make blanket mandates on stuff like this? no. Should cage builders do a better job of installing the equipment? yes.

    But how do you account for the small percentage of the idjits out there building cars that aren't up to snuff?

    veloscaraptor
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    27 May 2010 08:52 AM

    Matt93SE wrote:

    Should SCCA make blanket mandates on stuff like this? no. Should cage builders do a better job of installing the equipment? yes.

    But how do you account for the small percentage of the idjits out there building cars that aren't up to snuff?

    easy, tell them to go home and fix it before they come back.

    modernbeat
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    27 May 2010 11:08 AM
    Matt93SE wrote:

    The other side of that coin is some of the janky seat installations I've seen. you can't just weld a 3" fender washer to the floor of the car and stick a bolt through it and mount an FIA seat....

    But how do you account for the small percentage of the idjits out there building cars that aren't up to snuff?

    You fail it in tech.

    P. Lier
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    27 May 2010 01:28 PM
    Matt93SE wrote:

    The other side of that coin is some of the janky seat installations I've seen. you can't just weld a 3" fender washer to the floor of the car and stick a bolt through it and mount an FIA seat. Yes, I've seen that. soon as the car goes off track and bounces through the dirt, the bolts get sheared off and you're then a bowling ball inside your own car.

    I may be generalizing things, but how many cars do you think CRB had to see with poorly installed FIA seats before they made this change? We all know its hard as hell to get a rule changed to our benefit, so what makes you think the CRB just decided to do this on a whim? Are their rules REALLY written by overzealous tech inspector a$$hats that play with cars made from iron pipe and rebar?

    Should SCCA make blanket mandates on stuff like this? no. Should cage builders do a better job of installing the equipment? yes.

    But how do you account for the small percentage of the idjits out there building cars that aren't up to snuff?

    Darwinism. ;)

    Peter

    RX7 KLR
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    27 May 2010 02:12 PM
    Davebs14 wrote:

    Yet ANOTHER example of the idiocy that runs rampant in SCCA and continues to drive NASA's #s up each year.

    I'll write a letter.

    Really? Seems like NASA has already taken this step. How many people are buying new seats after five years? I know two of the three cars we have are fitted with "expired" seats.

    SCCA Pro Racing also requires it for World Challenge. But like many of you, I would like to know where they came up with the idea it is better/safer/stronger/should be required for even current seats???

    NASA 15.6.22 Seat Back Support
    A seatback support must be made to hold the seat from going back in the event of a
    crash. A plate should be used to distribute the load. No bolts, corners, or sharp objects
    should be placed in such a manner that could lead to a possible puncture of the driver in
    a high impact crash. Proper design and installation is crucial to safety and it is
    recommended that the driver employ the services of a professional race car builder for
    this, as well as all other vehicle safety items. An exception may be made for those seats
    homologated to, and mounted in accordance with, FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009
    standards. Those seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to
    the entire FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009 set of regulations, as applicable. This includes a
    mandatory seat replacement, or use of a seat back brace, for any seat more than five (5)
    years old (8899-1999) or more than ten (10) years old (8862-2009). Please reference
    the FIA regulations. http://www.fia.com/

    P. Lier
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    28 May 2010 08:29 AM

    """An exception may be made for those seats
    homologated to, and mounted in accordance with, FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009
    standards. Those seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to
    the entire FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009 set of regulations, as applicable"""

    I read this differently. Seats that meet the above FIA specs and MOUNTED in accordance with the above specs do not need a seat back brace within the 5 or 10 year window. The kicker is MOUNTED in accordance with and TECHS interpretation thereof. I personally don't want a seat back brace slamming my back when it punches through the seat with a rear impact.

    Peter

    RX7 KLR
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    28 May 2010 10:48 AM
    P. Lier wrote:

    """An exception may be made for those seats
    homologated to, and mounted in accordance with, FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009
    standards. Those seats that qualify for the aforementioned exception must conform to
    the entire FIA 8855-1999 or 8862-2009 set of regulations, as applicable"""

    I read this differently. Seats that meet the above FIA specs and MOUNTED in accordance with the above specs do not need a seat back brace within the 5 or 10 year window. The kicker is MOUNTED in accordance with and TECHS interpretation thereof. I personally don't want a seat back brace slamming my back when it punches through the seat with a rear impact.

    Peter

    I never said all FIA seats in NASA required a back brace. Note the emphasis in my post (bold and specific text) on the age portion of the seat rule. [;)]

    GregAmy
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    07 Mar 2016 04:36 PM
    It's baaaack...

    Technical Bulletin, Letter #18687, effective 4/1/16:

    "Upon expiration of FIA certification, FIA seats may be used but must have the seat back firmly attached to the main roll hoop, or its cross bracing."

    http://www.scca.com/downloads/13416...m/download
    Austincrx
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    27 Mar 2017 11:02 AM
    FIA rated seats are made to 'flex' in the event of an impact. This allows the seat to absorb some of the impact forces instead of being rigid and breaking under the stresses exerted upon it by the floor mount, driver mass, and restraints. In the event of a rear-impact and the seat had a fixed back support, it may not be able to flex in the way it was designed. This could cause a concentrated stress in the lower portion of the seat or in another location and the seat could suffer catastrophic failure.

    Eventually every part of the race car will have an expiration date, not just your belts and helmet.
    It is just another costly expense that racers have to factor in to their budgets, which could lead to attending less events. I know it would for me. $600+ for a new seat = 1 less race weekend I will be attending that year.

    Speaking of safety gear (as I consider a seat to be safety gear) going out of date, why is there not an SCCA mandated replacement of driver's suits? I know some racers whose driver's suits have to be at least 15 years old! Even though there is no 'expiration date' on a race suit (like on belts), I am planning to replace my current suit either this season or next.


    Okay, I'll get off my horse.
    Grintch
    Basic Member
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    Posts:259


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    11 Apr 2017 02:56 PM

    Posted By P. Lier on 27 May 2010 01:28 PM
    Matt93SE wrote:

    The other side of that coin is some of the janky seat installations I've seen. you can't just weld a 3" fender washer to the floor of the car and stick a bolt through it and mount an FIA seat. Yes, I've seen that. soon as the car goes off track and bounces through the dirt, the bolts get sheared off and you're then a bowling ball inside your own car.

    I may be generalizing things, but how many cars do you think CRB had to see with poorly installed FIA seats before they made this change? We all know its hard as hell to get a rule changed to our benefit, so what makes you think the CRB just decided to do this on a whim? Are their rules REALLY written by overzealous tech inspector a$$hats that play with cars made from iron pipe and rebar?

    Should SCCA make blanket mandates on stuff like this? no. Should cage builders do a better job of installing the equipment? yes.

    But how do you account for the small percentage of the idjits out there building cars that aren't up to snuff?

    Darwinism. ;)

    Peter




    So what makes you think this guy won't use a janky back brace that will punch through his seat, into him, in an accident?


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