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Last Post 08 Aug 2016 04:46 PM by  christoc
2006 350Z Wheels question
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Rezand
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23 Feb 2016 02:51 PM

    Hey guys, got a question about my Z.  It is a 2006 Enthusiast.  It came with 18x8 and 18.85 wheels.  The 2006 Track model came with 18x9 and 19x10 wheels.

     Can I run a Track model size wheel on my Enthusiast in Stock class?  

     Thank you,

    Rob Zander

    christoc
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    23 Feb 2016 03:30 PM
    Nope
    Rezand
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    23 Feb 2016 03:32 PM
    Grumble...
    christoc
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    23 Feb 2016 03:36 PM
    13.4 WHEELS
    Any type wheel may be used provided it complies with the following:
    A. It is the same width as standard and as installed it does not have an offset
    more than ±7.00 mm (±0.275”) from a standard wheel for the car. The
    resultant change in track dimensions is allowed.
    B. Wheel (rim) diameter may be increased or decreased 1” from the standard
    part.
    Wheel spacers are permitted provided the resultant combination complies
    with the offset requirements of this Section. On vehicles supplied with an
    OE wheel spacer, the wheel spacer shall be considered as a part of the wheel.
    Wheel studs, lug nuts, valve stems (including pressure-relief types), and/or
    bolt length may be changed. Tire pressure monitoring sensors may be removed.
    Centerlock/Spline Drive/Knock-off type hubs may be converted to lug type
    hubs provided the resultant combination complies with the offset requirements
    of this Section
    Rezand
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    23 Feb 2016 03:50 PM
    Thanks Chris. I do understand that rule but I did not understand the interplay between that rule and: "Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a particular make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year."
    Sadly, I'm not a lawyer, only an engineer. ; )
    christoc
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    23 Feb 2016 03:53 PM
    Basically if you want a track model, you would have to do all the conversions to make it a track model. Wheels and brakes are the easy one. I think, could be wrong, Track has VDC while the enthusiast does not (at least didn't in 03/04) so you would have to convert to include VDC as well.

    Also, didn't the 06 track have higher rated HP, maybe the early workings of the revup engines, where enthusiast didn't?

    You'd be far better trading for a track, OR just go all in and come play in STU :D
    rkammerer
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    23 Feb 2016 03:57 PM
    Posted By Rezand on 23 Feb 2016 03:50 PM

    Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a particular make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year." 

    Rob,

          For an option package conversion, you'd take all the parts the Track 350 came with that you don't have and bolt them on.  Yes, all of them*.  Next, you'd unbolt all the parts that your Enthusiast has, that a Track doesn't.  Again, all of them*.  Spoilers, stereo bits, trim, etc.  For many cars, it is much easier/cheaper/practical to sell "In the driveway package" car and then buy "Teh Bestest for AutoX packge" version of the car.

          * ...all of them except those you think you can successfully argue as Comfort and Convenience.  Though that gets silly, too.

          [edit: Yep, what Chris said.]

    -Rob K.

     


    Rezand
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    23 Feb 2016 04:04 PM
    Ok, that explanation makes sense. Thank you Chris.

    The 05 Track model got the first rev-up, then all manual 06 models came with the rev-up.

    And you know, I have considered STU. My concern is that the rules change over time and I am a little afraid of spending $10k or more to be competitive and then have the rules change again later. My line of thinking would be to just go to a C5Z06 as this car will always have a place in a Stock class and will also be a better car for track days.
    It would be hard to give up the Z though...I always dream of turning it into a Time Trial car or NASA SpecZ car. Those are pipe dreams, but you know, i might win the lottery that I don't play...
    gilligan156
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    23 Feb 2016 04:38 PM
    As someone who has spent the last two years racing a 350Z in C-Street...

    Unless you're a really good driver, you're probably not going to be super competitive in C-Street anyway. I don't believe the 350Z is particularly well set up for autocross in general being so front-heavy and wide. Your main competition in the class will be the NC Miata and the RX-8, both of which are lighter, smaller, and more nimble. In our region they're also being driven by very good drivers. The other competition in our class is the FRS/BRZ cars which I have finished ahead of consistently, except on courses that are very technical/low speed, in which case our horsepower advantage is nullified. Our power lets us make up lost time on straight sections, but those seem to be a rarity on most of the courses.


    Of course take my experience with a grain of salt because I am far from a perfect driver. I also could have made a better tire choice, as I didn't realize you could run oversized tires within the street rules. I also don't have upgraded shocks or swaybar so my car isn't fully "optimized".

    If money isn't the big problem you could do it in steps. Outfit your car for C-street by doing your intake filter and cat-back, shocks, and front sway bar. Get good tires on light, legal-sized wheels (same width 8.0 front 8.5 rear, 17-19" diameter). See how you feel about the car for a few events / a season / whatever. You can always go back and decide to bump up to STU later.

    And seat time. Always more seat time...
    sgreer78
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    23 Feb 2016 05:57 PM
    Rob is pretty fast. But I'd still like to see that car in STU.

    I wonder why you'd want to run the 18/19 setup though? More expensive tires, no way to rotate front to back, ect. Event with the .5 width difference front to rear you can still run a square tire setup, it's just more of a pain to rotate them f-r.


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    gilligan156
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    23 Feb 2016 06:05 PM
    Posted By sgreer78 on 23 Feb 2016 05:57 PM
    Rob is pretty fast. But I'd still like to see that car in STU.

    I wonder why you'd want to run the 18/19 setup though? More expensive tires, no way to rotate front to back, ect. Event with the .5 width difference front to rear you can still run a square tire setup, it's just more of a pain to rotate them f-r.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    I totally agree with this.

    To the point of wheels, if you haven't already bought the 06-07 track wheels, don't. They are relatively heavy (fronts are 21.25 lbs; rears are 29.5 lbs!) and illegal for your car in C-Street. 

     

    I'm using the 03-05 track wheels, which are the same dimensions and therefore legal, and are the lightest OEM wheels for the 350Z (18.19 lbs fronts, 18.62 lbs rear). I'm very happy with them except as Sean said you have the problem of them being different sizes.

     

    If you're going aftermarket I would suggest just buying the lightest wheels you can that 17"-19" in diameter (18" is stock, you can go + or - 1" within the rules) are 8 wide in the front and 8.5 wide in the back. My understanding of the wheels rules is that your wheels have to be exactly the side width as the original equipment to be in Street class.

    sgreer78
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    23 Feb 2016 06:40 PM
    I would also like to add that anyone who would throw a fit about this locally should be kicked in the balls. It's far from an optimal setup. If you were to be beaten by this driver/car, it's not because of the wheels.
    EPidiot1
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    24 Feb 2016 02:15 PM
    Weird rules but it is called the 2016 solo RULES handbook. I do agree with Sean though, definitely not an optimal setup. I sell 19 inch tires for
    Highlanders and RAV4 all the time at work and dang they are expensive. I don't even want to know what anything with real grip would cost in that size. Thanks for being honest too myself and a lot of others would probably never know the difference.
    OneJay
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    01 Aug 2016 11:33 AM
    Bumping this. I have a friend that is considering a 350z for C-Street. Looks like the 07-08 Grand Touring would be a good choice, as it was optioned with the 18x9/19x10" wheels. It's heavier than a track, but it's going to be a DD for him too, and he likes the additional amenities. We're not seeing many Grand Tourings for sale, but a few Touring packages have popped up lately. Looks like those may just be brembos, wheels and some under-body panels away from a package conversion? Or am I missing any other options that would make the conversion difficult/impossible?

    I't appears that the Enthusiast & base did not come with VDC, so that would be a no-go for a conversion, but the Touring looks like it's optioned pretty similar to the Grand Touring, minus the bits I mentioned above. Any input?

    Thanks!
    gilligan156
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    01 Aug 2016 04:36 PM

    If he's looking to buy a 350Z *specifically to compete in C Street* you may want to step back and reevaluate what you're buying.

    You will be turning off VDC either way, it's a little button by your left knee. If you leave it on, it constantly cuts power to the engine during your run every time it detects the back end losing traction/sliding. You don't want it anyway.

    Really the only difference between the Touring (what I have) and the Grand Touring is the Brembo brakes and if it's an 07 the wheels. I think the Grand Touring also came standard with GPS nav, not sure about that. Do the brakes make up for the heavy wheels and heavy leather interior with power seats and all the other stuff? Well, I don't know, I haven't driven one. If you are DEAD SET on having the brembos, wait for a grand touring. Picking up a used set of the brembos to do an upgrade is well over $1,000.

    I don't see the bigger wheels as an advantage. If you're looking at 18/19 staggered they must be these:

    http://www.350z-tech.com/wiki/images/thumb/d/de/2006_350z_005.jpg/800px-2006_350z_005.jpg

    The rears are pretty heavy at just under 30 lbs; that's a lot of unsprung weight. Larger wheel also means worse acceleration. That also means bigger tires which is more expensive if you care about that. If you have the Grand Touring model that year (07) and that was the standard wheel, which I think it was, you would have to package convert down to a lower trim level to not be trapped into using 9" wheels in the front and 10" wheels in the back, which kinda defeats the purpose of getting a higher trim level Z.

    My grain of salt opinion on the matter as someone who wasn't really successful with a 350Z is that for autocross you'd be best served looking for an enthusiast, or a touring if you want the comforts like heated leather etc. Find some 03-05 Rays track wheels since they're the same width but 18 lbs, throw some RE71Rs or Rival S tires on them for use at the track, and go out there and go fast. There are some guys running 350Zs this year that have been pretty successful with them.

    But then again, if you just want a nice 350Z with the options you want because you want them, and being competitive is the second priority, then get what you want and just have fun with racing.

    Autolex
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    02 Aug 2016 09:25 AM
    Posted By zetto156 on 01 Aug 2016 04:36 PM

    The rears are pretty heavy at just under 30 lbs; that's a lot of unsprung weight. Larger wheel also means worse acceleration. That also means bigger tires which is more expensive if you care about that. If you have the Grand Touring model that year (07) and that was the standard wheel, which I think it was, you would have to package convert down to a lower trim level to not be trapped into using 9" wheels in the front and 10" wheels in the back, which kinda defeats the purpose of getting a higher trim level Z.

    Just because the stock wheels are heavy, does not mean that you have to run those wheels, (or that diameter).

    Posted By SCCA Street Class Rules
    13.4 WHEELS Any type wheel may be used provided it complies with the following: A. It is the same width as standard and as installed it does not have an offset more than ±7.00 mm (±0.275”) from a standard wheel for the car. The resultant change in track dimensions is allowed. B. Wheel (rim) diameter may be increased or decreased 1” from the standard part.

    Additionally; VDC disable is easy, and covered under the Street Class rules: 

    Posted By SCCA Street Class Rules
    13.9 ELECTRICAL SYSTEM G. On cars without the ability to turn off electronic stability control and/or traction control (ESC/TC) from the manufacturer, modifications to defeat the ESC/TC are permitted. These modification are limited to altering the inputs to the ESC/TC processor (e.g., removing fuses, unplugging yaw or steering angle sensors, altering signals) and may serve no other purpose. Any codes or error lights resulting from ESC/TC modifications are permitted.

    I'm considering the sale of my 2003 Track and buying a  2007 GT for this very reason. There are a few 2007's that don't have Navigation in the Grand Touring Trim (so a bit lighter than the 3404lb curb weight quoted). There's a silver one in TX on autotrader right now (90k miles) for ~$10k


    I think the right combo would be something like this: Koni Race/MCS/Motons with digressive valving, Big front bar, Hawk HP+, Single exit aluminum exhaust, 18x9" +25mm front wheels (RPF-1 3798906535SP + 10mm spacer), and 18x10" +28mm rear wheels (RPF-1 3798106538SP + 10mm Spacer) either running 275/285 RE-71R's or 275 Square RE-71's. Wheels weigh in at a scant 17.1lb (front) and 18.45lb (rear).

     

    Another maintenance item thought: there are a few AutoZone/PepBoys/Advance/O'Reilly's stores that allow you to buy a part with a "lifetime guarantee". Buy a spare pair of compression arms (~$400 with the warranty) and swap them out when your sticky front tires rip the bushings apart (every few events?)

    96SM2
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    02 Aug 2016 09:41 AM
    And change the brake pads to Ferodo DS 2500 from the Hawks that Alex lists if they are available for the brake package. 😀 Less initial bite but better modulation/ release characteristics and more linear pedal than the Hawks.
    TD53
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    02 Aug 2016 10:44 AM
    Posted By Andy Hohl on 02 Aug 2016 09:41 AM
    And change the brake pads to Ferodo DS 2500 from the Hawks that Alex lists if they are available for the brake package. 😀 Less initial bite but better modulation/ release characteristics and more linear pedal than the Hawks.

    This. The Ferodo DS2500's. Hawk HP+ is like an on/off switch, the Ferodo's let you use the amount of braking you need, which really helps keep the car under control. A stable car is a fast car.

    For street class, the general rule of thumb is, if the weight penalty isn't too bad, you want the package that came with the widest wheels/stiffest springs. Everything else you can fix (wheel diameter, shocks, etc.).  

    gilligan156
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    03 Aug 2016 03:46 PM

    You can't run a single exit exhaust on a 350Z in Street class; you can't change the location or number of exits. Aside from that yeah.

    I swear that was a rule, was that changed at some point? Did I make that up in my mind? ...

    Yeah, you're right. I assumed part of why they wanted that model was to have those wheels.

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    03 Aug 2016 03:48 PM
    Posted By zetto156 on 03 Aug 2016 03:46 PM
    You can't run a single exit exhaust on a 350Z in Street class; you can't change the location or number of exits. Aside from that yeah.

    Say what?

    13.10.C "Any part of the exhaust system beyond (downstream from) the last catalytic converter, if so equipped, may be substituted or removed provided the system exits the car in the original location and meets the requirements of Section 3.3.3.B.16, Section 3.5 and Appendix I where applicable. Vehicles equipped with exhausts that exit in multiple locations may change to a single outlet in any of the original locations. Stainless steel heat exchangers are permitted only if the physical dimensions and configuration remain unchanged"

    OneJay
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    04 Aug 2016 11:25 AM
    Thanks for the input everyone. The part about VDC was not because he wants to use it, but because it was standard on the Grand Touring, and trying to package convert from a trim without it seems impossible. Seems like the Touring is pretty similar, he would just need the brakes & some under-body panels. Does anyone know anything about the panels under the car that are different?
    christoc
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    04 Aug 2016 12:09 PM
    In my professional opinion you simply do not want to try to do a conversion... Not if you want to be 100% class legal.
    gilligan156
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    08 Aug 2016 04:03 PM
    Posted By Chris Hammond on 04 Aug 2016 12:09 PM
    In my professional opinion you simply do not want to try to do a conversion... Not if you want to be 100% class legal.

    Agreed, if you know you want the Grand Touring stuff ... just wait and get a Grand Touring. Your perfect car is out there, you just have to be patient and/or willing to travel to get it.
    christoc
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    08 Aug 2016 04:46 PM
    Or buy a white 03 Touring that is autocross ready


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