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Last Post 12 Feb 2008 11:49 AM by  DRAG
Addition of SMS final?
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DRAG
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18 Jan 2008 05:32 PM

    I was reading on another forum that the Indy chapter added the SMS class?

    I think that is a mistake, and I'm pretty disappointed. There are only a few SM cars in this region that run slicks, sometimes 1 per event. It stinks for those guys that they will now be racing against themselves. You will have the nationally recognized class with no participation...and there are already too many classes. It seems like people would rather be handed a trophy then actually having to work for it.

    Lets hear everyone's thoughts on this. I'd especially be interested in hearing from people who run slicks.

    MichaelBenz
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    18 Jan 2008 09:53 PM
    Welcome Luke! Good to see ya here! The SMS class was added as a request of the members because SM was so deep....and because the guys with street tires were tired of getting beat by guys on slicks. A proposal was submitted and it was added at great member request...and due to many other regions running that class successfully. Street mod is fairly deep at several/many events and the street tire guys didnt feel they were getting a fair shake at it against the advantage of slicks. My car personally is not top of the class by any means....but I have been getting better at piloting it anyway! By end of last season I wasnt doing bad at all...but it was greatly because I gained some additional seat time/skills/combined with slicks that took the push out of my front end somewhat. On street tires...my car is so heavy it just pushes so bad I couldnt stand it any more. Fact is though....its probably a handicap for me honestly because of the damn cars characteristics!
    DRAG
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    19 Jan 2008 03:09 PM

    I understand why people wanted the class, but it is a shame that the guys who will suffer are those that have cars that are prepared to be competitive in the class. If the front runners went back to street tires, they would still win. What then? SMS2?

    The depth of that class is what made it so cool, and now the nationally recognized class will be empty. Bummer.

    I was looking forward to running my street tires against the slick tire cars as an extra challenge for me, but I don't want to race against one car when I can race against 10. Maybe SMS is for me too?[D]

    DRAG
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    19 Jan 2008 03:11 PM
    So now that my rant is out of the way [:D] ...are any of you guys that do run slicks going to just run street tires so that you have someone to race against?
    RonConrad
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    19 Jan 2008 03:55 PM

    This class was first proposed in Fort Wayne Region. I told those asking for it, we would give it a try. If it had support, we would keep it. Well two years later, and the class remains our most popular class. In addition to SM cars, we also allow SM2 cars to compete in SMS. Everyone seems to love the class. On a 100 car field, about 1/4 of the cars run in that class. Most of these guys just want to show up and have fun. They are NOT thinking of competing Nationally, so a region class suites them just fine. Since we started the class, a local Subaru club has been coming out in force. Those that want to run Divisional, and National events, eventually move over to the SM, or SM2 class.

    Now that Indy region has the class, expect more Fort Wayne folks to come to your event! If you are complaining about too many classes, the new "bumping" should ensure that the class has enough entrants.

    dbrier
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    19 Jan 2008 05:18 PM

    The SMS class is provisional this year. If it is popular, then it will be added. The fans of the SMS class like it for as much financial reasons as any other.

    In 2007, 4 of the top finishing 5 cars in SM were on slicks. I know at least one of those 4 who is looking forward to not buying slicks this year and running SMS. I think the class will be popular, but only time and attendance will tell. It puts us on equal footing.

    Mike, are you running SM or SMS this year?

    DRAG
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    19 Jan 2008 06:28 PM
    RonConrad wrote:

    This class was first proposed in Fort Wayne Region. I told those asking for it, we would give it a try. If it had support, we would keep it. Well two years later, and the class remains our most popular class. In addition to SM cars, we also allow SM2 cars to compete in SMS. Everyone seems to love the class. On a 100 car field, about 1/4 of the cars run in that class. Most of these guys just want to show up and have fun. They are NOT thinking of competing Nationally, so a region class suites them just fine. Since we started the class, a local Subaru club has been coming out in force. Those that want to run Divisional, and National events, eventually move over to the SM, or SM2 class.

    Now that Indy region has the class, expect more Fort Wayne folks to come to your event! If you are complaining about too many classes, the new "bumping" should ensure that the class has enough entrants.

    Ron,

    Thanks for the response. It wasn't participation in the SMS class that I was concerned about, as there is an abundance of underprepared cars running SM. SMS will be packed. My concern was with the participation in SM itself. If only a couple cars in this region are on slicks, and as stated above one more is moving back to street tires, SM is going to be empty. I can tell you if there are 2 cars running SM and 25 running SMS (as you have suggested), I am running with the larger group purely for the "fun" factor of racing lots of people. I was looking forward to running street tires against the slick cars, but not against one other guy.

    It has been stated on the Yahoo group and here that the goal for SMS was to give the street tire guys a better chance at taking home a trophy. I'm all for that, but it is at the expense of breaking up a good class. If guys are really there just to show up and have fun as you have said, then why was the SMS class needed to begin with? So that guys can win trophies. We all have a competitive bone and winning is fun [:D] It sounds fair..but is flawed. The same guys that were fast in SM will be fast in SMS.

    I am not "complaining", I just don't think it was thought out too well. It actually benefits me a great deal...my car does pretty well on street tires and I have room for much more rubber. With the goal of the class in mind, what happens if a street tire car is equally as fast as the slick cars in SM? There are a couple guys showing up that are FTD, or usually close to it, and they aren't on slicks. Again I'm not trying to bash on this thing as it may help a lot of guys out...I just think the solution to one problem might have created another. Maybe not...time will tell.

    Could you please tell me about the new "bumping" thing? Thanks.

    DRAG
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    19 Jan 2008 06:33 PM
    dbrier wrote:

    In 2007, 4 of the top finishing 5 cars in SM were on slicks. I know at least one of those 4 who is looking forward to not buying slicks this year and running SMS. I think the class will be popular, but only time and attendance will tell. It puts us on equal footing.

    Dale I totally agree. But if those 4 cars in the top 5 go back to street tires, they will more than likely be towards the top again.

    dbrier
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    19 Jan 2008 06:39 PM

    Not really,

    I was running pretty close to Jim and Mikey before they went to slicks. After that, they started beating me easily. The tires bought them at least a second.

    RonConrad
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    19 Jan 2008 08:29 PM

    I don't think it's any easier to go home with a trophy in a 20 car field than it would be in a 5 car field (depending on car prep, and driver ability), but it does give the local guy a more competitve chance than competing against a car that is fully prepped to the class.

    Does Indy Region run an Indexed class? I know Detroit region has an Indexed class that uses the PAX index.

    Most cars that get thrown into SM, are not usually set up for autocross (talking local drivers), it's usually the addition of the Carbon Fibre Hood, or turning up the boost, that throws them into the class. The SMS class is a great place for the new guy that likes to tune his car, but is just discovering autocrossing. It is also a great place for the casual autocrosser who usually doesn't travel too far out of the region.

    Some of our SMS drivers have now discovered that they want to go the next level, and are now running in SM with a fully prepped car. The SM class will be smaller, but I would predict that SMS drivers that want to move to the National Tour, or ProSolo events will eventually move back to SM.

    dbrier
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    19 Jan 2008 09:08 PM

    Exactly.

    One of the things we talked about was that none of the Indy SM cars are nationally competitive. Most of the SM cars are there due to one or a few mods. For example, the only thing that keeps me from running ESP is that my brake rotors and calipers are larger than stock. None of the local SM cars are even close to being modded to the limit of the class.

    The other thing is that SMS has a lower PAX than SM. This year it is .845 which is half-way between SM and STU. We got that number from the Ft Wayne guys, it works for them and makes IN consistant. Our large SM class, requests from the drivers, and the success of the Ft Wayne SMS class made us decide to try it this year. The SMS class will be less intimidating to newer drivers and we hope to draw in a few FW guys too. More attendance is our goal.

    The Nebulizer
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    19 Jan 2008 11:43 PM
    RonConrad wrote:

    Does Indy Region run an Indexed class? I know Detroit region has an Indexed class that uses the PAX index.

    Unfortunately, no. I proposed it at a previous meeting, but its reception was 'mixed'. I think it is a very good idea and would add a new level of competition to the league.

    turbohappy
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    20 Jan 2008 04:04 AM

    For clarity, there won't be any bumping for 2008. It may come around again and be re-proposed for next year, but certainly not this year.

    So you know, SM is NOT a big class at the national level. They had 23 entrants in open in 2007, STS had 50, SS had 70. It is a big class at the local level because of these folks who honestly fit in better in this SMS class. Remember that the class is provisional for this year. If it doesn't turn out well, that will be it. If it is successful, it will be permanent.

    Eclipse2Lancer
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    20 Jan 2008 01:26 PM
    turbohappy wrote:

    For clarity, there won't be any bumping for 2008. It may come around again and be re-proposed for next year, but certainly not this year.

    So you know, SM is NOT a big class at the national level. They had 23 entrants in open in 2007, STS had 50, SS had 70. It is a big class at the local level because of these folks who honestly fit in better in this SMS class. Remember that the class is provisional for this year. If it doesn't turn out well, that will be it. If it is successful, it will be permanent.

    Exactly. It is a pilot program for 2008. We will see how well it is received within the region, and revisit the topic for the 2009 season to decide if it should be a permanent addition (such as the Novice and X-Class were in the past).

    DRAG
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    20 Jan 2008 03:55 PM

    Somehow my questions and concerns about the health of SM are avoided and instead we keep repeating that SMS is a trial class and its existence will depend on the attendance of THAT class. I think that has been covered, and is understood. Of course SMS will be a huge success this year. All but 4 of the cars that ran last year fit perfectly into SMS, and I would suspect that some of those slick guys drop to SMS. Maybe not.

    That leaves an empty SM and you are back to where you started....all the same local guys, just in a different class, but still competing against the same people LOL! I'm a forward progress kind of guy, and it seems like a lateral move.

    Either way. It seems like enough has been said and thanks for clearing up some of my questions. See you guys in SMS [Y][:D]

    The Nebulizer
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    20 Jan 2008 04:07 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    Somehow my questions and concerns about the health of SM are avoided and instead we keep repeating that SMS is a trial class and its existence will depend on the attendance of THAT class. I think that has been covered, and is understood. Of course SMS will be a huge success this year. All but 4 of the cars that ran last year fit perfectly into SMS, and I would suspect that some of those slick guys drop to SMS. Maybe not.

    That leaves an empty SM and you are back to where you started....all the same local guys, just in a different class, but still competing against the same people LOL! I'm a forward progress kind of guy, and it seems like a lateral move.

    Either way. It seems like enough has been said and thanks for clearing up some of my questions. See you guys in SMS [Y][:D]

    I suspect your concerns are propably valid. SM will drop off to a small class. Those who remain will likely be the more hardcore autocrossers with better prepared cars and the ones more likely to run national events. So, yeah, SM will likely be affected by this trial. As to most of SMS just being all those SM guys moving over - that is true too, but now they can compete better with other classes due to the modified PAX. So, it is not a pointless shift for those racers.

    GChambers
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    20 Jan 2008 06:48 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    Somehow my questions and concerns about the health of SM are avoided and instead we keep repeating that SMS is a trial class and its existence will depend on the attendance of THAT class. I think that has been covered, and is understood. Of course SMS will be a huge success this year. All but 4 of the cars that ran last year fit perfectly into SMS, and I would suspect that some of those slick guys drop to SMS. Maybe not.

    That leaves an empty SM and you are back to where you started....all the same local guys, just in a different class, but still competing against the same people LOL! I'm a forward progress kind of guy, and it seems like a lateral move.

    Either way. It seems like enough has been said and thanks for clearing up some of my questions. See you guys in SMS [Y][:D]

    Nobody is avoinding your concerns. You just don't seem to want to understand the idea that the guys that run in SM are there because they don't really have a choice. If they can create their own class where they actually want to run and be competitive with the other drivers that want to run against them and participation numbers are high, everyone is going to be happier. Also, as Ron mentioned, this class may bring in participants from other regions. Increased attendance is always a good thing.

    I am a National level competitor. I know what it takes to run a competitive SM car. There are no such cars in the Indy region. Scott Dales Mini is probably the closest. Though it is very well prepaired and Scott is a great driver, it would not be competitive against the BMWs and Evos that win on a National level. Kevin Miller is another great driver driving a car that is not competitive on a National level. IMO, the class just barely exists in Indy despite the large number of participants because the cars that do participate are not there by choice. They are there because their owners have modded their cars to their own taste, not a rule book. What's so wrong with giving them a place to play, especially if the participation numbers are good and it possibly brings in participants from other regions? If someone does want to build a Nationally competitive SM car, I would argue that they may want to run the PAX based X class against the other local competitors who have prepaired their cars to compete on a National level.

    There are a lot of under participated classes in the Indy Region. What makes SM so special that it shouldn't become like any other class with maybe 2-4 competitors besides the fact that you run in that class?

    I'm not trying to sound like a jerk so please don't take it that way. I just want you to see the other side of the argument.

    DRAG
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    21 Jan 2008 05:47 PM

    Hey no problem. This is what the board is for...discussing stuff. I understand the other side, as I am one of those guys that has a stock car thrown into SM because of some silly modification, so I understand everyone's want for this class. I also agree that we do not have a single car in this region that is remotely close to being prepared for national competition in SM, so that said, if you can't look at this situation and see that it is a lateral move with almost ALL Indy region competitors simply moving over, then I don't know what to say. The PAX change is the difference, and it will help everyone and myself. I forgot about the PAX change, and thank you for reminding me.

    Like I said, I was just wanting to hear more about it and wondered if anyone had thought about what it does to the Indy Region in regards to the class that is losing competitors. SMS will indeed be a huge success, and my intetions were 100% free of improving things for myself. I was worried about the guys that run slicks in SM. In fact...SMS probably helps me more than anyone considering where my times fall in comparison to others on street tires, but I'm just out to have a good time if you can't tell by my erratic driving LOL [;)]

    MichaelBenz
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    24 Jan 2008 12:37 PM
    Yes Luke...I will likely remain in the SM class and run on slicks. My slicks are far from worm out....and frankly...I need em to keep my damn car steering and not pushing so badly. It made a huge difference for me last year in the handling of the car. That is my current plan anyway.
    DRAG
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    24 Jan 2008 01:04 PM

    [:D]I need to ride with you now that you have slicks. I love the sound of your car

    Andy Ucter
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    30 Jan 2008 10:57 AM

    SMS r00oolz

    and I don't see why you don't get it..

    who cares about SM locally.. as Geoff mentioned.. could you, as a driver in SM even touch people like Daddio?? in a fully prepped car?? or sais?? etc??

    SMS guys are typically newbs who don't want to spend money on dedicated "race rubber" or take time changing tires, moreover.. a majority of these people... e.g. mike benz.. (love ya man, but you're not ready for them) aren't ready for r-comps anyway

    I'll stay out of SMS personally, as My borrowed car fits into STU.

    more-over.. I would think/hope.. that the powers that be in INDY region would frown on a national or highly competitive driver... going to SMS.. just to beat-up on the kids there...

    (E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

    I think it is an awesome move for INDY region.. and I am glad to be a member!!!

    nice to see such an old region.. staying fresh.. and up to date

    brgmcs
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    30 Jan 2008 12:46 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    (E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

    Not that I have any intention or desire to move to a class just to "beat up on the kids there" (geez I must be getting old! [:(]) but for the record my car is definitely un-prepped for SM or SMS. I'm essentially driving an STX car, except for the handful of events that I used second tier R compounds at. I'm not legal for STX, but the only thing that kicked me out was a pulley change on the supercharger and the rougly 15hp that gave me. Since then, they've changed the STX rules and it is now easily possible for a 2002-2006 MINI to make the same power my car does within the STX rules. A 2007 or 2008 makes more than I do. I'd love to run STX, but I'm not going to spend almost $5000 to make my car meet the new rules. It's not worth it to me. If I'd bought my car in 2004 or later, I'd still be in STX and the car would be just as "fast" as my car is today.

    Other than the pulley, every other change I've made is STX legal. On top of that, I suspect I've had the lowest hp SM car at all of the Indy or CSCC events, though Kevin Miller's Type R probably has less torque.

    Now if you want to supply R compounds for me, plus get them to the events for me, I'll be happy to change them each time and stay in SM.[:D]

    Racerlinn
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    30 Jan 2008 01:07 PM
    I have a set of Avon Type "Arrrhhhs" you can have, only slighty used..... [:O]
    Eclipse2Lancer
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    30 Jan 2008 01:38 PM

    Racerlinn wrote:
    I have a set of Avon Type "Arrrhhhs" you can have, only slighty used..... [:O]

    Are those the same Avons you had on at the Worker's Invite? You know.....when I spun around for you to pick up our tickets from the Will Call booth! [H]

    dbrier
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    30 Jan 2008 01:52 PM
    brgmcs wrote:
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    (E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

    ...plus get the tires to the events for me, I'll be happy to change them each time and stay in SM.[:D]

    I know a wagon that has extra cargo space in it [Y]

    Bobzilla
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    30 Jan 2008 02:03 PM

    Scott, if I had the room to store them, I'd haul your R-comps to the events. Got plenty o room in Porky.

    The Nebulizer
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    30 Jan 2008 02:44 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    I would think/hope.. that the powers that be in INDY region would frown on a national or highly competitive driver... going to SMS.. just to beat-up on the kids there...

    (E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

    I disagree with this statement. SMS is not meant to be a class for noobies (whether that ends up being the case or not) - and I don't think those running it would want it to be treated like a junior level class. It is just a class that better represents many of the cars in Indy. Its jnot meant to be an easy ticket for beginners. Scott Dales should definitely run SMS if that is what his car is best set up for. Would you have Scott race in a higher class than necessary so he can let the 'kids' race in SMS? That doesn't make any sense to me.

    BTW Scott, I don't know about hp, but I bet you had me beat in 0-60mph. I was running about 7.2sec in the SC'd 325Ci (about 215hp at crank w/ 4.5psi, 3350lbs, and a slushy automatic) - now the M3 is a whole other beast - 4.6sec. [H]

    As for hauling your tires, can't you fit a couple of those little guys in your glove box?[:P]

    turbohappy
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    30 Jan 2008 05:33 PM

    Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

    It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

    mtownneon
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    31 Jan 2008 05:28 AM
    turbohappy wrote:

    Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

    It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

    That would be a correct statement............................

    Andy Ucter
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    31 Jan 2008 01:31 PM
    mtownneon wrote:
    turbohappy wrote:

    Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

    It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

    That would be a correct statement............................

    actually, no it's not..

    you are BOTH missing the point...

    as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into.. the guys who show up with a HUGE tach0meter.. and a carbon fiber hood.. ricers.. whatever..

    they can go to SMS.. instead of a full on MOD class.. and get screwed.. like the SCCA has been doign to people with light mods since the beginning..

    the point of the class is to offer a bit of a catch all.. where one little mod.. won't kill you on a class..

    so Brian, you don't count.. you are in a very well prepped car for the class you've chosen.. and you can't tell me.. that if it was your first season of autoX... you'd be topping raw times in your car.. vs what the local SM guys are.. from what I've heard, results I've seen, you're a great driver..

    more-over.. how about you get a car identical from the factory as yours.. put 17" wheels and cat-less exhaust on it.... no shocks.. no sway bars.. and see if you are as competitive in STS.. sure you'll still be good.. but the car I explain.. is more an SMS car.. basic mods that ricers do to their cars..

    the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them modivated.. etc..

    doesn't matter to me.. if you guys have the wrong idea.. its just great that Indy region has done this!!! and you'll see withen a couple events.. who has the correct perspective.

    as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

    The Nebulizer
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    31 Jan 2008 02:06 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    you are BOTH missing the point...

    as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into..

    the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them modivated.. etc..

    as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

    I still disagree with you. Here is the SMS proposal (by Dale Brier):

    "Street Modified Street Tire class proposal.

    The Street Modified (SM) class has exploded in recent years to become the largest class in the Indy Region. Most events have 15+ cars in the class. The Indy Region SM class does not have any nationally competitive cars running, they are mostly cars that have a modification or two that move them up to a “catch-all” class like SM. These are cars that are modified to driver taste and street driving, not as dedicated autocross cars. Most are bumped up from ST classes by simple modifications like boost controllers, carbon fiber parts, or larger brakes. Because the class allows for R-compound racing tires, those with the largest budget for tires are winning the class. Out of the top five SM cars in the 2007 season, four ran primarily on race tires. It is very discouraging for new drives to finish very low in a large class and see all the winners on slick, expensive racing tires.

    I am proposing a Street Modified Street Tire (SMS) class as a regional class for the Indy Region. This class has been very popular in the Fort Wayne Region. The class would not replace or interfere with the regular SM class. All SM rules would apply except:

    • Tires must have a tread-wear rating of 140 or greater (street tires) and
    • The class would use a PAX modifier of .840.

    This PAX has been successful in Fort Wayne for consistency reasons, should be used here as well. It is midway between the STU and SM class PAXs.

    At this time, it is not recommended to include SM2 cars into this class."

    I see nothing about novices or newbies - only underprepared cars with the main focus on underprepared in tires (which we all know makes a big difference - especially with higher powered cars). Again, it may end up being made up of mostly novices - but there is nothing to suggest that is the intent of the class.

    As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded. And, since I always seem to need to bring this up, yes, I would get spanked in STU as there are some very good drivers in this class (of which I am not) - but it would mean I could fit in a class with street tires and I would gladly race there. I don't know why any discussion of car classes always seems to boil down to claims of it all being driver skill. We all know the importance of driver skill.

    Oh, and I would argue that Novice and X Class are not the only skill based classes we have... but I don't want to be seen as sexist (when in actuallity the current system is by definition sexist).

    Eclipse2Lancer
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    31 Jan 2008 02:27 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:
    mtownneon wrote:
    turbohappy wrote:

    Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

    It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

    That would be a correct statement............................

    actually, no it's not..

    you are BOTH missing the point...

    as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into.. the guys who show up with a HUGE tach0meter.. and a carbon fiber hood.. ricers.. whatever..

    they can go to SMS.. instead of a full on MOD class.. and get screwed.. like the SCCA has been doign to people with light mods since the beginning..

    the point of the class is to offer a bit of a catch all.. where one little mod.. won't kill you on a class..

    So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
    Brian is actually right:
    Indy implemented SMS to cater to those who have light mods that might put them into the SM class, but will not restrict the class to a "newbie" class. It is essentially another open class that is Regional only. Intended for people who prep their car to their liking, not the SCCA rulebook.

    So I think we are saying the same thing, but speaking different languages. But no, it's not a class for newbies.

    Andy Ucter wrote:
    so Brian, you don't count.. you are in a very well prepped car for the class you've chosen.. and you can't tell me.. that if it was your first season of autoX... you'd be topping raw times in your car.. vs what the local SM guys are.. from what I've heard, results I've seen, you're a great driver..

    How does Brian not count? lol....shouldn't all those high HP cars outperform his little Civic, at least According to your logic (if I read it correctly)? Driver doesn't matter much....then you call him a great driver. I don't get it.
    As it stood in 2007, there were in fact good drivers in SM, in underprepped cars (per SCCA rules). Thus the proposal for SMS from Dale Brier.

    Andy Ucter wrote:
    more-over.. how about you get a car identical from the factory as yours.. put 17" wheels and cat-less exhaust on it.... no shocks.. no sway bars.. and see if you are as competitive in STS.. sure you'll still be good.. but the car I explain.. is more an SMS car.. basic mods that ricers do to their cars..

    Again, SMS for us is intended for people who prep their car to their liking, not the SCCA rulebook, and happen to not fit in any other class (SP, ST, etc.)

    Andy Ucter wrote:
    the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them motivated.. etc..

    I would agree with this completely.

    Andy Ucter wrote:
    doesn't matter to me.. if you guys have the wrong idea.. its just great that Indy region has done this!!! and you'll see withen a couple events.. who has the correct perspective.

    as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

    Thanks? Kind of a back-handed compliment if you ask me though.....

    Regardless, see you at an event in 2008! [:D]

    Andy Ucter
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    31 Jan 2008 02:49 PM

    The Nebulizer wrote:
    [ Because the class allows for R-compound racing tires, those with the largest budget for tires are winning the class. Out of the top five SM cars in the 2007 season, four ran primarily on race tires. It is very discouraging for new drives to finish very low in a large class and see all the winners on slick, expensive racing tires.

    read bold

    how much more effing obvious can it be here folks??? it is even in Dale's eloquently written proposal.

    The Nebulizer wrote:
    As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded. And, since I always seem to need to bring this up, yes, I would get spanked in STU as there are some very good drivers in this class (of which I am not) - but it would mean I could fit in a class with street tires and I would gladly race there. I don't know why any discussion of car classes always seems to boil down to claims of it all being driver skill. We all know the importance of driver skill.

    are you sure you are excluded?? I thought the E46 was only excluded from STX.... therefore went to STU.. anyway.. come on in.. the water's warm.. i won't complain...

    Andy Ucter
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    31 Jan 2008 02:56 PM

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

    So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
    Brian is actually right:..

    NO.. but I am saying.. brian is in a PREPPED car.. and even as a great driver..

    he would not do AS well if it only had big 17" wheels.. falken 452's a sub woofer, strut tower-braces.. and custom cat-less exhaust.

    all things being typical of OFF THE STREET n00bs who are car enthusiests.. and have begun (ignorantly) modding their old civic.

    that's why SMS exists.. its in the proposal.. read it.

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

    So I think we are saying the same thing, but speaking different languages. But no, it's not a class for newbies.

    ..

    we are close.. but yeah.. it it is a fine catch all for noobs.. in ignorantly prepped cars.. YET!!! and here is the beauty in it... it also caters to middle ground drivers.. who still mod their car to their tastes.. (e.g STi swapped RS's)

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
    Thanks? Kind of a back-handed compliment if you ask me though.....

    not so much.. as i am not attacking anyone.. I just don't like stock classes.. and want more competition in my own..

    Eclipse2Lancer
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    31 Jan 2008 03:10 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

    So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
    Brian is actually right:..

    NO.. but I am saying.. brian is in a PREPPED car.. and even as a great driver..

    he would not do AS well if it only had big 17" wheels.. falken 452's a sub woofer, strut tower-braces.. and custom cat-less exhaust.

    all things being typical of OFF THE STREET n00bs who are car enthusiests.. and have begun (ignorantly) modding their old civic.

    that's why SMS exists.. its in the proposal.. read it.

    um....I did read it. I am after all one of the Region's Solo co-chairs for '08. [;)]

    I do agree that while the class will catch those who have begun "ignorantly modding" their cars, who for the most part are new to the sport.....the proposal does have a brief statement about new competitors, but we are NOT going to exclude anyone from running in it based on experience as you suggested earlier.

    I wouldn't go as far to call someone like Dale a ricer.....although he could carry several bags of it in his wagon. lol......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

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    31 Jan 2008 03:26 PM

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
    ......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

    In all honesty most of us don't. I mean seriously, who races a Hyundai and prepares it for STS against 600lb lighter Civics? ACtually I better watch that statement. . . . someone might do it and be successful!

    Most of us have modified our daily drivers to what suits our needs/desires. If that is "ignorantly modifying them" then so be it. Almost every single one of us is in this for the fun, the comraderie and the chance to beat our DD's for giggles. I've been involved in a lot of crazy things and the people in this hobby are the most engaging, fun to be around and overall helpful people I've ever met. Who else walks the course with their competitor, helping them find the right lines and how to be a little quicker?

    Eclipse2Lancer
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    31 Jan 2008 03:32 PM
    Bobzilla wrote:

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
    ......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

    In all honesty most of us don't. I mean seriously, who races a Hyundai and prepares it for STS against 600lb lighter Civics? ACtually I better watch that statement. . . . someone might do it and be successful!

    Most of us have modified our daily drivers to what suits our needs/desires. If that is "ignorantly modifying them" then so be it. Almost every single one of us is in this for the fun, the comraderie and the chance to beat our DD's for giggles. I've been involved in a lot of crazy things and the people in this hobby are the most engaging, fun to be around and overall helpful people I've ever met. Who else walks the course with their competitor, helping them find the right lines and how to be a little quicker?

    dang.....I helped you on a course walk, didn't I? [:$]

    turbohappy
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    31 Jan 2008 03:32 PM
    At the end of the day, SMS is primarily for our group of drivers who modify their daily drivers without any consideration of the rulebook. They don't have to be n00bs, although many of our novices who don't have stock cars are likely to fit well in this class. Ft. Wayne region's successful SMS class has several people in it who are not new to the sport.
    Bobzilla
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    31 Jan 2008 03:37 PM

    Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
    dang.....I helped you on a course walk, didn't I? [:$]

    Multiple times IIRC. Hopefully you won't be too busy this year to not continue. . . and bring along your tire warmer while you're at it. I hear Brian knows a thing or two about cones. . .. [:P]

    Oh, and since this was too serious of a thread, this is superfluous ricey mods. . . thanks to some "friends" on the Elantra forums.

    SCCAForums Image

    Hoppe you got a laugh at this one.

    brgmcs
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    01 Feb 2008 12:15 PM
    The Nebulizer wrote:
    BTW Scott, I don't know about hp, but I bet you had me beat in 0-60mph. I was running about 7.2sec in the SC'd 325Ci (about 215hp at crank w/ 4.5psi, 3350lbs, and a slushy automatic) - now the M3 is a whole other beast - 4.6sec. [H]

    Yeah, I'm a couple tenths faster to 60mph than your 325 (high 6's). But on a hot day and with a delay starting a run, I may not be any quicker. The MINI engine is really suspceptable to heat, what with the tiny engine bay and lots of heat sources such as the inefficient Roots blower, plus a charger cooler mounted up top to catch it all. Running around in 15degF weather is a whole 'nother story. Too bad our season runs in the summer. [:'(]

    The Nebulizer
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    01 Feb 2008 12:39 PM
    brgmcs wrote:
    The Nebulizer wrote:
    BTW Scott, I don't know about hp, but I bet you had me beat in 0-60mph. I was running about 7.2sec in the SC'd 325Ci (about 215hp at crank w/ 4.5psi, 3350lbs, and a slushy automatic) - now the M3 is a whole other beast - 4.6sec. [H]

    Yeah, I'm a couple tenths faster to 60mph than your 325 (high 6's). But on a hot day and with a delay starting a run, I may not be any quicker. The MINI engine is really suspceptable to heat, what with the tiny engine bay and lots of heat sources such as the inefficient Roots blower, plus a charger cooler mounted up top to catch it all. Running around in 15degF weather is a whole 'nother story. Too bad our season runs in the summer. [:'(]

    It sounds a lot faster[au] - I figured more like 5's. I thought Mike Baker's Mini was more like mid-5's. Can a Mini be 'well-prepared' in SM or is it just too limited by engine bay size?

    And, my posting this was not meant to be an excuse for my slowness - I know the 0-60 time of my car played little into my less than impressive times. (It was the heavy power/heated seats [:P] )

    DRAG
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    01 Feb 2008 01:39 PM

    Holy moly what a bunch of crap! Andy you can make your point without being a f'ing dick to everyone. My intention was to look out for the other competitors...not myself. I will make sure I am in contention for a win regardless of what happens.

    I'm a rookie and my attitude is that if I can't keep up with the fast guys then I need to get some damn seat time and possibly work on making my car perform a little better.

    I just bought a new car yesterday that is AS eligible, but I am still going to run SMS or SM for the heck of it. I look forward to trying to keep up with the good drivers. I've got some things to learn from guys like Kevin K, Scott, and others.

    My X next to my VIII...just picked it up yesterday. Far superior in every way.

    DRAG
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    01 Feb 2008 01:42 PM
    The Nebulizer wrote:

    It sounds a lot faster[au] - I figured more like 5's. I thought Mike Baker's Mini was more like mid-5's. Can a Mini be 'well-prepared' in SM or is it just too limited by engine bay size?

    And, my posting this was not meant to be an excuse for my slowness - I know the 0-60 time of my car played little into my less than impressive times. (It was the heavy power/heated seats [:P] )

    I always wondered what my 0-60 times were. I know when I left it would make me dizzy and it was hard to hit the first cone. I'm sure I would be faster if I slowed down. My car ran 12.5 @ 109 1/4 mile in my auto x trim and 11s @ 119.5 with the power turned up a tad. I added another 100hp after that 119mph run, but never got a chance to measure the performance.

    Eclipse2Lancer
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    01 Feb 2008 02:05 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    Holy moly what a bunch of crap! Andy you can make your point without being a f'ing dick to everyone. My intention was to look out for the other competitors...not myself. I will make sure I am in contention for a win regardless of what happens.

    I'm a rookie and my attitude is that if I can't keep up with the fast guys then I need to get some damn seat time and possibly work on making my car perform a little better.

    I just bought a new car yesterday that is AS eligible, but I am still going to run SMS or SM for the heck of it. I look forward to trying to keep up with the good drivers. I've got some things to learn from guys like Kevin K, Scott, and others.

    My X next to my VIII...just picked it up yesterday. Far superior in every way.

    Nice X, Luke. Can't wait to see it in person. I am guessing dealerships are going to be flush with a bunch of VIII's and IX's pretty soon! [:D]

    The Nebulizer
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    01 Feb 2008 02:22 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    I just bought a new car yesterday that is AS eligible, but I am still going to run SMS or SM for the heck of it. I look forward to trying to keep up with the good drivers. I've got some things to learn from guys like Kevin K, Scott, and others.

    My X next to my VIII...just picked it up yesterday. Far superior in every way.

    Congrats on the sweet new car. I haven't even seen one yet. This car is not classed yet though, is it? I think there was some debate on if it would be AS, most likely though. Are you keeping the Evo 8?

    Compete in AS - your dad and I need some company.

    DRAG
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    01 Feb 2008 02:30 PM

    Most of the current EVO owners hate the new car. I felt the same until I went in to drive it. Seeing it in person is WAY different than pictures. It looks bold in person, but not so "boy racer" It is definately a nicer car with the cruise, navigation, DVD player, and handling controls.

    I don't think it will be classed different than the previous ones. Power feels about the same, and it is a lot heavier, but it feels just as agile if not more.

    I am selling the 8, and I'm selling it cheap. I cracked the front lip and got a ding in the hood...so $20K this week as is, or I will put a spit-n-shine on her and sell for 22K. It has 37K miles and 245 Azenis with 1000 miles on them...but 2 auto x events.

    turbohappy
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    01 Feb 2008 03:58 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    My car ran 12.5 @ 109 1/4 mile in my auto x trim and 11s @ 119.5 with the power turned up a tad. I added another 100hp after that 119mph run, but never got a chance to measure the performance.

    Nice. Mine did 16.2s all day in autocross trim [;)] Should have a little more power and a little grippier tires now, maybe I could crack the 15s? Probably not. I'm sure I could crack the 15s if I took a bunch of camber and toe out of the front wheels.

    Andy Ucter
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    01 Feb 2008 04:16 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    Holy moly what a bunch of crap! Andy you can make your point without being a f'ing dick to everyone.

    Take your own advise.. I wasn't "trying" to be a dick, so my appologies.. so those who may have thought/felt it.

    why don't you bring your evoX to STU with Mr. M3.. Kevin Will be there too.. so they'll be like 3 of us getting our asses kicked by kevin..

    The Nebulizer
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    01 Feb 2008 04:55 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:
    DRAG wrote:

    Holy moly what a bunch of crap! Andy you can make your point without being a f'ing dick to everyone.

    Take your own advise.. I wasn't "trying" to be a dick, so my appologies.. so those who may have thought/felt it.

    why don't you bring your evoX to STU with Mr. M3.. Kevin Will be there too.. so they'll be like 3 of us getting our asses kicked by kevin..

    I wasn't sure what your intent was. When reading text over the internet it is often hard to tell what someone really means (that is why I try to use lots of smilies when I am razzing someone or when I think my post could be taken wrong). For example, "Mr. M3", I am not sure what that means. I don't know who you are, yet I have a nickname from you. I chose to take it that you were trying to be friendly with me, but it could have been read as an insult. At first I took Andy's posts like DRAG did, but then I reread them and figured maybe I misinterpreted the tone and there was no negative intent.

    Either way, there are better ways to call into question someones tone than name calling. As moderator of this forum, I have to ask everyone to keep it friendly. One of the concerns the board members had about setting up a new forum was that it could get ugly - I assured them it wouldn't. Let's assume this was just a misunderstanding and not let it go any further.

    The Nebulizer
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    01 Feb 2008 11:30 PM

    The Nebulizer wrote:
    As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded...

    Hey, check it out - I posted in another thread questioning if the e46 M3 could be made elligible for STU. Andy Hollis (member of SEB) responded that it might be time and started the thread below and it has exploded into a real possibility...

    http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/283004.aspx

    I am not sure if it is too late for 2008 - but I kind of get the feeling it may not be fromt he overwhelmingly positive response. Guess I will hold off buying those Kumhos V710 and may need to invest in some springs, camber plates, sway bars, CAI instead.[<:o)] Performance Driven may make some money off me after all.

    balefire
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    02 Feb 2008 01:32 AM
    The Nebulizer wrote:

    The Nebulizer wrote:
    As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded...

    Hey, check it out - I posted in another thread questioning if the e46 M3 could be made elligible for STU. Andy Hollis (member of SEB) responded that it might be time and started the thread below and it has exploded into a real possibility...

    http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/283004.aspx

    I am not sure if it is too late for 2008 - but I kind of get the feeling it may not be fromt he overwhelmingly positive response. Guess I will hold off buying those Kumhos V710 and may need to invest in some springs, camber plates, sway bars, CAI instead.[<:o)] Performance Driven may make some money off me after all.

    --temporary threadjack--

    Hey Jason,

    Regardless of whether the e46 M3 officially makes it into STU this year (unlikely, more likely 2009), I would begin prepping it for STU anyway if I had your car.

    1) In 2003, I autox'd a friend's AS prepped e46 M3 (light weight wheels, hoosier R compounds, stiff shocks, stock muffler) and it was terrible. No camber, heavy car, soft springs on sticky R compounds made the car feel like a heavy understeering boat out there. You would have no chance against the more nimble S2k, Solstice GXP, C4. My friend (a national level trophy winner) quickly realized this in 2003 and mid season gave up on it and went back to a BS s2000.

    2) I'm sure you could convince the local STU / Indy SCCA region to allow you to run STU this year

    3) STU would fix alot of the e46's inherent problems (camber, soft springs, weight)

    4) It is a huge pain changing into R compounds at an event. If you can run a street tire class for your car and be competitive, I would.


    Good luck. I need to sell my wife's car and get her an e46 m3 too. =)


    Paul

    BS #35

    The Nebulizer
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    02 Feb 2008 02:13 AM
    balefire wrote:
    --temporary threadjack--

    Hey Jason,

    Regardless of whether the e46 M3 officially makes it into STU this year (unlikely, more likely 2009), I would begin prepping it for STU anyway if I had your car.

    2) I'm sure you could convince the local STU / Indy SCCA region to allow you to run STU this year

    3) STU would fix alot of the e46's inherent problems (camber, soft springs, weight)

    (I think this thread could use a little threadjacking... )

    That sounds like a good plan. (Was your co-driver the one that had an M3?). Hopefully they will decide on it before the season (even if it is for a 2009 implementation) so I could have a strong position for any local proposal. Of course, in STU it is a battle for 2nd place behind the amazing Kevin Kent, but I would much rather be in this class for the mods it would allow me to do (plus, I am really not ready for R comps). I think you are right about the STU mods being a big help in dialing the M3s potential (even with street tires). Probably still not as well prepped as the Evos and STi - but not too far off (with equal drivers). I think the M3 would be a pretty good RWD contender to the 4wd dominance in STU. I think this is another reason why it will go through - to give the class a little more diversity. Thanks for the advice, Paul.

    DRAG
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    02 Feb 2008 02:14 AM
    No please DO hijack the thread. It is like beating a dead horse.
    Bobzilla
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    02 Feb 2008 07:59 AM
    I tried to jack it. . . I really did.
    balefire
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    02 Feb 2008 10:28 AM
    The Nebulizer wrote:
    balefire wrote:
    --temporary threadjack--

    (I think this thread could use a little threadjacking... )

    That sounds like a good plan. (Was your co-driver the one that had an M3?). Hopefully they will decide on it before the season (even if it is for a 2009 implementation) so I could have a strong position for any local proposal.

    actually, it was another BS s2000 buddy, back in the heydey of s2000s. He temporarily tried autox'ing the e46 m3 because he got a deal too good to be true. another friend wanted to get rid of his e46 m3 so he could get the smg version...

    also, in the other thread, what they say about smg in autox is true. if you have ever tried "speed shifting" a normal manual during a turn, you'll find out that it upsets the car and if you're not careful, will cause you to spin. if i were u, despite the ease and temptation of hitting that paddle during a turn, i would always wait for a straight before upshifting w/ dsg. in a normal manual, you can do a "smooth shift" during a turn and not upset the car as much.

    DRAG
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    04 Feb 2008 09:20 PM
    I would love to take an S2000 around some cones. I wanted to buy one, but it wasn't practical for my big butt. I have friends that have had them and they are probably top 3 of the most fun cars I have ever driven. Maybe the most fun actually.
    Locked
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    08 Feb 2008 10:13 AM
    Andy Ucter wrote:
    DRAG wrote:

    Holy moly what a bunch of crap! Andy you can make your point without being a f'ing dick to everyone.

    Take your own advise.. I wasn't "trying" to be a dick, so my appologies.. so those who may have thought/felt it.

    why don't you bring your evoX to STU with Mr. M3.. Kevin Will be there too.. so they'll be like 3 of us getting our asses kicked by kevin..

    I agree! You should take your $40k X to STU. Well see if the navigation, heated seats, cruise control, and "aero" package get you around the cones quicker.

    I had to quote this message just to see the car one more time in the list! I'm very glad I showed up to the dealership and couldn't talk you out of it!

    DRAG
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    09 Feb 2008 01:40 PM

    Don't be mad because I will be watching TV while I whoop your butt LOL!!

    Thanks for NOT talking me out of it. I called you so that you would, but you suck at doing your job [:P]

    By the way...active yaw is way cool :D

    Locked
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    10 Feb 2008 10:27 PM
    DRAG wrote:

    By the way...active yaw is way cool :D

    Warm spongy brakes are way cool too! Send me pictures from Saturday.

    MichaelBenz
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    11 Feb 2008 12:14 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    SMS r00oolz

    and I don't see why you don't get it..

    who cares about SM locally.. as Geoff mentioned.. could you, as a driver in SM even touch people like Daddio?? in a fully prepped car?? or sais?? etc??

    SMS guys are typically newbs who don't want to spend money on dedicated "race rubber" or take time changing tires, moreover.. a majority of these people... e.g. mike benz.. (love ya man, but you're not ready for them) aren't ready for r-comps anyway

    I'll stay out of SMS personally, as My borrowed car fits into STU.

    more-over.. I would think/hope.. that the powers that be in INDY region would frown on a national or highly competitive driver... going to SMS.. just to beat-up on the kids there...

    (E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

    I think it is an awesome move for INDY region.. and I am glad to be a member!!!

    nice to see such an old region.. staying fresh.. and up to date

    What are you saying sir? I suck at driving my car? [:S] Thanks! Actually...it was recommended by one of the expert drivers and safety stewards that I get slicks due to my cars handling issues and the fact that the car was supercharged, which placed me in Street Mod. He recommened this very highly after having ridden with me about 5 times and even gave me two different tire recommendations. It immediately cut 2-4 seconds off my times due to eliminating the push in the front end greatly. I think if I hadnt missed two events last year I probably would have taken third in points in my class for the year anyway? What is your recommendation. It was my thinking that when the slicks are worn out I would get some decent street tires and try to SMS class...but frankly, I was one of those guys that just modded my car the way I wanted it. It was my daily driver at the time (still is greatly, although I have been driving the GS400 lately since it became available for my use) and I built it the way I wanted it not really caring about the rule book. But anyway, whats your recommendation? Certainly not beyond hearing another point of view! But not sure my budget will afford slicks after these are worm out....so certainly willing to look at another POV. Issue with my car is its an automatic, which takes some time to get up and go....and the slicks let me carry a bit more speed into turns and not be overdriving the cars tires. The supercharger and the Acura V6 with this setup has some lag to it from the start a lot, but less than stock without supercharger....but anyway...whats your recommendation?

    The Nebulizer
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    11 Feb 2008 12:27 PM

    I was hearing some negatives about getting R comps too early. The explanation was that it would teach me bad habits since I could get away with poor driving rather than learning proper technique.

    (But, then I was also told to stay away from street classes because it would create too harsh a ride. So, it is all confusing.)

    DRAG
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    11 Feb 2008 12:32 PM

    Benz you do just fine and what makes anyone qualified to say that you aren't ready for those tires? I'd say you handle that near 4000lb FWD 300+hp car no problem...and it is obvious the tires helped a ton considering the way your times improved. I rode in the car and it pushed and had traction problems exiting...the supercharger rocks :D You can just tell by watching that it is easier to control, and at the invitational you easily ran faster than several lighter AWDs.

    I think someone's noggin is outgrowing their hat!

    DRAG
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    11 Feb 2008 12:38 PM
    The Nebulizer wrote:

    I was hearing some negatives about getting R comps too early. The explanation was that it would teach me bad habits since I could get away with poor driving rather than learning proper technique.

    (But, then I was also told to stay away from street classes because it would create too harsh a ride. So, it is all confusing.)

    In my opinion that is just people repeating what they have been told or read on some silly forum. If the sticky tires allow you to brake late, toss the car in a different manner, take more aggressive lines, exit under power earlier, etc (things that could be considered "bad habits" on street tires)...then they allow that....period. What is faster is faster...smooth or not...bad habit or not. There are too many variables to make a statement so broad. If a tire improves the handling characteristics of a car so much, everything you learn from being on street tires can be put in the back of your mind. If the car handles differently, you start with a clean slate. You have to relearn regardless.

    Andy Ucter
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    11 Feb 2008 02:11 PM

    Jason and Mr. Benz.

    I'm still a proponent for street tires.

    who cares if you "raw time" dropped... what if you practiced on street tires.. got really good, then went to r-comps.. your times would have dropped more!!!

    as long as you're having fun, that is all that matters.. frankly.

    IMHO... spending my own money is not fun.

    so I'd rather try to be fast on cheaper street-tires... than to to be slightly faster on more $$$ tires... and have to piss with swapping wheels/tires at the event. had to do it once in the rain.. back and forth ... once...

    Mr. Benz.

    what size wheel are you using??

    Jason,

    just come to STU. I'll let you take my car for a spin on the AST's (which are made for M3's as well) they are so smooth, yet stick so much better than any other damper I've tried (that wasn't 3 times the price, ala Moton)

    when you are ready for better dampers.. you'll already be looking forward to the AST's.

    Vorshlag makes a nice 17x9 wheel that is forged and lightweight.

    245/40 tires (maybe wider in the rear, if you want..) and you'll be happy!! and can still DD the car.

    DRAG
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    11 Feb 2008 03:45 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    who cares if you "raw time" dropped... what if you practiced on street tires.. got really good, then went to r-comps.. your times would have dropped more!!!

    That is still a broad statement and assumes a lot. If you had been in Mike's car, you would see that understeer and traction under acceleration was a problem for both the wallet and the fun factor. Understeer is no fun and neither is spinning from gate to gate. Pulling 4000lbs through the front tires with 300+whp and 350+wtq will go through street tires pretty quick. I think he did right...he drove it on street tires and identified an issue, and the easiest way to make it faster and more fun was to get on an R. I don't see what the big deal is.

    MichaelBenz
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    11 Feb 2008 05:21 PM
    Andy Ucter wrote:

    Jason and Mr. Benz.

    I'm still a proponent for street tires.

    who cares if you "raw time" dropped... what if you practiced on street tires.. got really good, then went to r-comps.. your times would have dropped more!!!

    as long as you're having fun, that is all that matters.. frankly.

    IMHO... spending my own money is not fun.

    so I'd rather try to be fast on cheaper street-tires... than to to be slightly faster on more $$$ tires... and have to piss with swapping wheels/tires at the event. had to do it once in the rain.. back and forth ... once...

    Mr. Benz.

    what size wheel are you using??

    Jason,

    just come to STU. I'll let you take my car for a spin on the AST's (which are made for M3's as well) they are so smooth, yet stick so much better than any other damper I've tried (that wasn't 3 times the price, ala Moton)

    when you are ready for better dampers.. you'll already be looking forward to the AST's.

    Vorshlag makes a nice 17x9 wheel that is forged and lightweight.

    245/40 tires (maybe wider in the rear, if you want..) and you'll be happy!! and can still DD the car.

    I am currently running an 18" wheel, the smallest wheel I can get on over my brakes unfortunately. But I can tell you, sure, I could go out on street tires and finish close to last place each event due to the push issue on the front of the car - or I can use slicks to hang in there and turn it through the corner. I think its one of those things that you would almost have to experience in my car to feel what the issues therein are. It lags greatly if you slow down too much - so to keep in the sweet spot you kinda have to keep it going a certain momentum - and to carry that momentum through the turns you need a dang sticky tire to hold it in line otherwise you will wash it out in a big way. Its not like I am running what one would call a "normal" autocross car out there....its a family truckster that is heavy! How many people have you seen out running fairly competitively in an Acura TL? I dont do so bad I think. I ran street tires on the car and they got tore up in a hurry - that or I finished last or close to it. As for changing the tires at the event - I think due to the fact that I will be out there at the event like at 6:30 these days setting up the track for you guys - I dont think finding time to change them is that big of an issue nor bothers me. It takes all of 20 minutes for the most part. I already have upgrades springs and shocks on the car....upgraded rear sway (thats all thats currently made for this model car) and tires were about the only thing I could do from there outside of slowing down - which only resulted in lower placement at the end of the day?

    brgmcs
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    11 Feb 2008 08:50 PM

    The sticky tires sure made a difference in your times, and I agree with you that the hopped up TL is not a "natural' autocrosser. Still, the driving techniques that would minimize the problems you were having on street tires will also make you go even faster on the R's. It's not so much a matter of going slower to save the tires, but doing it in the right places and on the right lines to take maximum advantage of the available grip. Giving it up a bit at the right time can pay big dividends on the clock, plus it doesn't abuse the tires as much.

    DRAG
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    12 Feb 2008 11:49 AM
    Don't ride along with me then....smooth is not in my vocabulary! LOL [H]


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