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Last Post 18 Jan 2001 08:48 AM by  Sunshine C5
These classes are ruined!
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y2khardtop
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27 Dec 2000 07:14 PM
    As a divisional champ and 3rd at runoffs (before being penalized), I must say that SCCA has ruined the T1 & T2 classes before they had a fair chance to get off of the ground! If the cars are not going to be classified and corrected properly, rules applied on a fair and even basis, and even decent scheduling at the runoffs (for TV coverage for instance), then no one will compete or sponsor a team.

    I am going back to World Challenge, where I can only afford to race mid-pack. However, it is fun, and the rules are fair!
    Anonymous
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    27 Dec 2000 09:43 PM
    For the rest of us who aren't that familiar, why were you penalized? Also, what are the new rules for 2001 that ruined it? This is a cool place to get these things talked about, glad it's here!
    y2khardtop
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    28 Dec 2000 06:07 AM
    In a race (in the rain) full of contact and damaged cars, I was penalized for contact with Scotty White coming out of the keyhole. I spun and I didn't. The corner station filed the protest, not Scotty B.

    I did not appeal the decision.

    My side of the story: Scotty had damaged his car during an incident with Jeff Altenburg, and had a visibly bent rear wheel. I gave him racing room lap after lap, and he was causing us to both fall back. I gave him the line several times after getting side by side with him, and on the last lap, there was contact coming out of the keyhole. I say he spun on his own, an I touched him after and drove around him. SCCA says I caused his spin.

    I have no hard feelings at all with Scotty, as racing is racing. However, with all of the cars "punted" during our race, I think it is unfair that this particular incident war the only one penalized.

    One final note: Freddy Baker jumped the race restart following a caution, and admitted it during the press conference following the race. SCCA, however, did not penalize him, event though the entire field was involved in the protest. It is as if SCCA had alread printed his name on the trophy!
    David Ferguson
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    29 Dec 2000 04:40 PM
    I don't think the classes are ruined. I think they had a crappy race at the 2000 runnoffs. The neat thing about racing is there's always another one!
    bobhines
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    30 Dec 2000 07:17 AM
    SCCA will never gain acceptance as a first class racing entity as long as they continue to project antique race cars as representative of what the club is all about.
    The T1, T2 and Showroom Stock classes are what people are driving today and to not feature those classes in prime spots on the televised runoffs is to miss gaining interest by the casual viewing public. Speedvision also has some responsibility in this as well. We have been to the runoffs for three years in T2 and our race had about 6 minutes of television coverage total. Yet the television coverage is very thorough for cars that haven't bben made for over 40 years and in fact the out of business manufacturers are totally unknown to half of the US population. Parts of the T1 race, which I watched at Magic Mountain, were very exciting with some very daring passes by Jeff and Scotty. As was the wet to dry and to wet again T2 race. All the cars in both classes are available, today, in your local dealers showroom. Hopefully the scca will wake up and save the touring classes before everyone running them loses interest. I know of several guys who won't be back this next year.
    Scotty B
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    30 Dec 2000 01:13 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by y2khardtop:
    [b]As a divisional champ and 3rd at runoffs (before being penalized),[/b]



    David, you were penalized for blatently ramming the *rear bumper* of my car in the keyhole no less than *3 THREE* times and finaly spun me out on the third time. The only damage to my car was on the rear bumper and *NONE* on the side! You caught up to me on the *LAST LAP* was because of the hit I took in one when Jeff slid into me making a rather optomistic move down the inside knocking the left rear toe out over 1/2"!

    I like you David, I think yer a nice kid, but you screwed up and you should take your medicine and put it to bed and MOST of all not try and discourage people from running this fun class just because you don't want to!

    Baker got away with cheating and we all know it, too bad so sad, he sure as hell won't get away with it next year cuz he won't lead *ANY* restarts!

    [QUOTE][b]
    I must say that SCCA has ruined the T1 & T2 classes before they had a fair chance to get off of the ground! [/b]

    How so?

    [QUOTE][b]
    If the cars are not going to be classified and corrected properly, rules applied on a fair and even basis, and even decent scheduling at the runoffs (for TV coverage for instance), then no one will compete or sponsor a team.

    I am going back to World Challenge, where I can only afford to race mid-pack. However, it is fun, and the rules are fair! [/b]

    I am glad to hear you praise W/C! This club racin aint as easy as one might think huh?

    sb (still waitin fer that apology)w




    [This message has been edited by Scotty B (edited December 31, 2000).]
    Anubis
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    30 Dec 2000 02:38 PM
    T1 and T2 are struggling, mainly due to low amount of racers. I don't think a decision over metal to metal between 2 drivers is going to do anything to the classes.

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    Lance Snyder
    Atlanta Region F&C
    Scotty B
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    30 Dec 2000 04:11 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by y2khardtop:
    [b]In a race (in the rain) full of contact and damaged cars>> However, with all of the cars "punted" during our race[/b]


    What race was full of contact? The only damage I know of was to Jeff's car and mine from turn 1 after the restart (if you call that a restart:rolleyes SCCAForums Image

    Who was punted? Besides me? If you're talkin about Chip, both the turn workers and my recolection saw something quite different than a punt. After at least 2 laps of Chip holding us up, (note lap times, his best lap was 2 seconds slower than Jeff & I) he left the door *WIDE* open entering the carousel, I pulled along side up to his door but got no further and figured we would enter the front straight side by side. Chip then looks directly at me in his right side mirror and tries to close the door he had left open, the corner workers saw me get hard on the brakes trying to avoid him but I just touched his RR bumper and he spun. His situation was self induced and the lack of RFA proves it. Why he had tried to close that door the way he did is beyond me, he would have had the inside in the next *TWO* corners and thats only if I could have stayed with all that V-10 power on the front straight!

    David, your using your C5 for a battering ram was sooooo blatent you were handed a RFA before you got the window net down!

    I didn't protest for 4 reasons;

    1. I wanted Kumho to have another spot on the podium
    2. I wanted GM to have another spot on the podium
    3. It would not have put me on the podium
    4. The turn workers and steward already had it handled with the RFA

    Let's be *TRUTHFULL* here and stay freinds

    sb (still waitin fer an apology) w

    [This message has been edited by Scotty B (edited December 31, 2000).]
    y2khardtop
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    31 Dec 2000 11:14 AM
    For the record, Scotty, I am sorry about what happened. However, Jeff and Chip told me different stories about what happened between you and them. Regardless, I do regret what happened, although it was not intentional! Did me know more good than you.

    Kumho is the only group I feel bad for, however. GM has caused me nothing but greif all year, and they continue to do so. However, KUMHO is a great company with a great product, and I am sorry that one of us didn't stay on the podium.

    Club RACING is great, it is the politics that I don't like. Also, changing rules from year to year is bad for the average racer (which Team Naykid is not). GM still won't sell an LS-6 to the public, and the heads aren't even available. With races starting next weekend, how are last years teams supposed to stand a chance against the new cars?

    I personally feel new cars should be classified BELOW the standard, then brought up. Raising the bar each year may make the manufactureres happy, but the average racer can't afford it.

    BTW, I'll be doing WC in my T1 car, like at Charlotte. I'll run the stock engine till it blows! I have no sponsors, and spend only as much money as the "fun" factor allows. World Challenge is a fun series, with limited tech (unless you win), and lots of fans and coverage. Club racing is a headache just to participate, and you get absolutely nothing out of it even if you win! I went club racing bacause of my friend Mark, who is now quitting! I should have known better than to go back to SCCA.

    Just my oppinion!

    Dave
    Scotty B
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    31 Dec 2000 01:08 PM
    Thanx Dave,
    I have never set out to badmouth you nor whined about the incident *EVER*! Nor did I have any intention of doing so, but I just couldn't let it go when I start seeing stuff like this on the board. I didn't really think what you did was premeditated or the result intentional. I have always thought a shot at a podium and a little impatients caused it.

    Maybe it was just playing too much with LiNay's new Espresso machine but all this finishing third stuff got me goin a little, sorry... SCCAForums Image

    Anyway, it was unfortunate for both of us and we will move on and hopefully remain freindly SCCAForums Image

    GM is helping us a ton in getting SCCA to let us update our cars to ZO6 IMO considering the alternative SCCAForums Image

    Good luck this season in WC Dave,

    sb(got it SCCAForums Image)w
    Lars Briedis
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    02 Jan 2001 06:56 AM
    Not sure if I am discussing old news but I saw a url to a Chevy Dealer that sells the LS6 engine. I do not know if this is true or what:

    [url="http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySmallBlockV8s/LS6.html"]http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/ChevySmallBlockV8s/LS6.html[/URL]
    Sunshine C5
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    02 Jan 2001 09:44 AM
    SO what exactly are the rule changes for 2001 in T1 ?? I know the Z06s are allowed. One ran at Sebring and the first time beat my lap record their ( 1999 T1 Vette) by one 10th. It was the drivers first time to Sebring. Needless to say, Im feelin a little low going into the Nat at Sebring this sat with a stock LS1. It will be three more weeks before I get my ZO6 ( at least that is what the dealer promised me). Until then I guess I just pedal around waiting for him to lap me.
    Sunshine C5
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    02 Jan 2001 09:47 AM
    I fully agree with all that the T1 class gets the short end of the stick when it comes to coverage at the runoffs. If SCCA expects this class to grow ( instead of some ancient production cars that are not found anywhere) they better get off their butts and start giving promo time for the T1-T2 class. people relate to cars they drive. Give us some recognition and you will see T1 grow.
    T2Racer
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    02 Jan 2001 01:02 PM
    I'm not going to comment on the class being ruined issue mentioned above, but I will say that it could only benefit all parties involved to get T1 and T2 some decent TV coverage. For the second year in a row I tuned in to the Speedvision coverage of the Run Offs (which is pretty good BTW) only to find that the T1 and T2 classes were not covered in full length like other classes.

    Surely some of the higher ups in SCCA, Speedvision or possible even Ford, Chevy, etc would be interested in promoting these classes more.
    Flagger X
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    02 Jan 2001 02:03 PM
    With all due respect to the above point, but the biggest problem with T1 is that there aren't any.

    As a flagger whose home track is Mid Ohio, in 1999 I only saw more than one T1 car, and one was the norm this year, until it came time to practice for the Runoffs. I have seen one total at Nelso during the past two years, and I'm one of the people who is out there almost every weekend

    I don't see the shortage changing, and the problem isn't the rules or politics. It's cost versus speed. T1 cars are fast, there are lots of faster classes one can choose for similar money [say Formula Ford or DSR]. Damage repairs are relatively expensive. Racers pay to go fast, why not put the money where you can go faster?

    Sure there are a lot of club cars out there, but they don't come play. The average Porsche and Ferrari club member isn't going to show up where any bumping whatsoever is tolerated. And I don't think anything less than changing the nature of Club Racing will bring them. Skippy Welcher doesn't want to risk bending his precious 996!

    As a Flagger, I'd love to see a bunch of T1 cars out there. I worked Turn 16 at the Runoffs, and enjoyed the race greatly, particularly seeing the two Ferraris, which I hadn't seen race before. As a racer, even if I had the money I'd go elsewhere.

    Flagger X
    OVR - LEC and saving for a new IT something
    Scotty B
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    02 Jan 2001 10:32 PM
    There are more comin in T1, I know of at least 3 new cars this year.

    As for coverage, the mistake was made IMO by not covering the races as we all agree but its been 2 years now and we should get the coverage in 2001

    As for expensive... I have to dissagree, if you look at the cost of buying, maintaining, and reselling the car over a 2 or 3 year period I thnink you will find you just can't go that fast for the money in any other class! You can actually get sponsors with these cars much easier than say an FF or SRF, why? Cuz they are exciting cars, its Americas best against the worlds best and they're happenin right now on the showrooms of the world

    When you look at the whole picture and that means considering what your time is worth, these cars are flat cheap! The amount of time spent working on these cars is nill!

    True if I wrecked a lot I sure wouldn't want to run a Viper or Porsche but a C5 is pretty cheap to fix when you bend it

    C'mon guys, the sky aint fallin SCCAForums Image

    sbw

    [This message has been edited by Scotty B (edited January 02, 2001).]
    T2Racer
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    03 Jan 2001 06:17 AM
    "As a Flagger, I'd love to see a bunch of T1 cars out there. I worked Turn 16 at the Runoffs, and enjoyed the race greatly, particularly seeing the two Ferraris, which I hadn't seen race before."

    Yeah they are pretty cool. A couple of times I have had the oppurtunity to race on track with those guys at TWS (they are both from Texas).

    When they come screaming by, the only thing I could see was the big a$$ wing on the back of the car. It was kinda weird, I could hear a race car, but at first I didn't see one then I see this huge wing fly by me. Then I realize, oh that was one of the Ferraris.

    At one race I had the garage space next to them. It was cool, but then after a while it got kinda crowded because everyone wanted to see the Ferraris. My car is used to getting alot of attention so naturally it got jealous.

    SCCAForums Image

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    Erik Skirmants
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    03 Jan 2001 06:46 AM
    Ok, you've got my interest....
    As a "track brat" who grew up with Prod. cars, then ran S2000, FF and FC for ten years, I recently went back to EP...$50,000 later, I like what I built (convertible RX7), but I always like to learn about other classes (hey, I race what makes sense at the time...bang for the buck you know).
    So, give me a hypothetical for a T1 Vette (be gentle, I wouldn't no a E06 from a ZR1 if it was dropped on my head).
    As for the Runoffs coverage, I just wish all races where covered...at least you guys didn't have 15 relatives standing in front of the TV on Christmas day only to find they ADDED A COMMERCIAL WHERE THE 20 SECOND CLIP OF ME USED TO BE....f I wasn't so damn good at laughing at myself it would have been quite embarrassing..... SCCAForums Image

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    Erik Skirmants
    #07 EP RX7 Convert.
    Scotty B
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    03 Jan 2001 10:28 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Erik Skirmants:
    [b]Ok, you've got my interest....
    So, give me a hypothetical for a T1 Vette (be gentle, I wouldn't no a E06 from a ZR1 if it was dropped on my head[/b]


    To do it again I would look for a car already done and ready to go, there are 99 & 00 cars that have run competitively for sale and are ready to go now for a lot less than $50k with spares, and you could finance it SCCAForums Image

    Every other weekend you will need 4 rotors and a set of pads $600 tires go 2 race weekends also, dump gas in it and spend time waxing it and looking it over and nut & boltin it all season and *NEVER* forget to turn on the diff & tranny coolers and you are good for a couple seasons. This car is a great start for motorola or W/C

    Or buy a 97 or 98 swimmer (flood car) for like $21k cage it for $3.5k (nice custom welded) 2 sets of wheels (lightweight) $3.5k, T1 suspension package $3k installed, coolers & accusump $1.5k installed, convert to a ZO6 spec $3.5k installed w/o tranny, $7.5k w/ tranny but then you can sell your old LS1 tranny for $2k. so yer net cost for tranny upgrade is $1.5k
    total to build car and go racin this way is $37.5k for a C5 ZO6 spec racecar which is a helluva start for motorola or W/C

    Keep in mind either one of these cars will hold their value better than most racecars and are easily insured for comprehensive

    c'mon down!
    Erik Skirmants
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    04 Jan 2001 04:51 AM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Scotty B:
    [b] you could finance it SCCAForums Image
    total to build car and go racin this way is $37.5k for a C5 ZO6 spec racecar which is a helluva start for motorola or W/C

    Keep in mind either one of these cars will hold their value better than most racecars and are easily insured for comprehensive
    [/b]


    OK, the financing thing I expected...a serious plus there (as a typical racer, VISA financed my EP car).
    What about motor rebuilds? Just buy a new one? Something is missing here. Don't you need a blue printed motor? What about headers? (As a good little club racer, I have the rule book, so I'll read up on the Touring mods. allowed). We are talking hypothetical "no holds barred" here I hope. So far the numbers are identical to the mechanical part of my car, the extra was the full Pi 2, 14 wheels, etc. (arguably unnecessary stuff).
    Insurance, now there's one that got my attention. I understood pulling that off with a car with a bolt in cage, but with a welded one? Don't give away any trade secrets, but how do you insure one of these beasts?

    Just tire kicking / learning, but your answers so far are a pretty good add for the classes. I shouldn't have barried them at the end of this string.

    Thanks,


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    Erik Skirmants
    #07 EP RX7 Convert.
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