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Last Post 02 Mar 2001 10:21 AM by  Dave Schotz
Street Mod Added!! Due to popular demand!
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Dave Schotz
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28 Dec 2000 07:57 AM
    Thanks guys! Here ya go!
    Dave
    Myxalplyx
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    28 Dec 2000 09:01 AM
    Testing!

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    AWD + AutoTranny = *SLOW*
    roadsterdriver
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    28 Dec 2000 11:30 AM
    Is there a link to the rules?
    LarryTT
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    28 Dec 2000 05:40 PM
    [url="http://streetmodified.org/rules.html"]http://streetmodified.org/rules.html[/URL]

    Those are the SM Rules for the most part.

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    Larry Joffe
    SM #27/127
    2000 Audi TT Quattro
    Karl Witt
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    29 Dec 2000 12:28 AM
    thanks dave, you rule SCCAForums Image
    ColinL
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    26 Feb 2001 10:53 AM
    Puh-lease! If we want Prepared rollcage (chassis, really) construction rules then it's OK. If this is really a continuation of Street Prepared, on the other hand, then the triangulated subframes gotta stay out... along with the replacement K members.

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    -Colin
    99 Impreza 2.5RS SM#22
    ColinL
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    26 Feb 2001 12:42 PM
    I know exactly what your subframe connectors look like. I have not been an import owner all my life, if that is what you are curious about.

    The rules are necessary to keep preparation costs in control and keep several smart enthusiasts from building cars that others cannot easily compete against.

    Triangulated chassis bracing quickly leads you down that slippery slope. The SP rollbar rules are the way they are for good reason.

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    -Colin
    99 Impreza 2.5RS SM#22
    Dave Schotz
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    26 Feb 2001 01:05 PM
    I gotta agree with Bob... Albeit, I don't have any experience with Triangulated vs. Regular SubFrame Connectors.. but the purpose is the same, and to make this not allow a car to be in SM is kinda silly... If you think about it, a Roll Cage is 10 Times the stiffness, and rigidity... and is very un-useable for Auto-X! Why spend the money on a cage, (Which IS legal) when you can save a ton on Subframe Connectors??
    My .02
    Dave

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    Weapon: White 2001 Z-06
    Class: SS
    Car No#: 39
    ColinL
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    26 Feb 2001 01:38 PM
    Guys, I'm not going to explain the SFC thing or debate it if you already understand. Bring it up in the SP forum, someone there would love to debate it I'm sure.

    I understand that there are low-cost items that add a lot of value to certain cars and it is painful when you don't fit into a particular SCCA class with your much-improved daily driver.

    I can think of an example with even broader appeal than SFCs: rear sway bars. The front bar is unlimited from back in the day when cars may not have had one at all, or you needed a much bigger one to control massive amounts of body roll to make it *safe* to autocross. Anyway removing the stock front bar or decreasing it in size in the hopes of reducing understeer in a Stock class car is ludicrous considering just about anything out there has a bigger rear bar available. (Remember, lots of body roll + softly sprung + stickies = danger. Thus the front swaybar rule.)

    If the pretense is cost saving, then why are stickies allowed when a rear bar isn't? No cost comparison there!

    Whoa, went on a rant there. SCCAForums Image Anyway, sometimes life isn't fair.

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    -Colin
    99 Impreza 2.5RS SM#22
    Dave Schotz
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    26 Feb 2001 02:58 PM
    Colin, I agree with your examples. Just pointing out some of the inconsistencies with SM... I have understood thier issue in SP, and feel that is completely another argument. But SM, was supposed to kind of cross that bridge to bring in those cars, that are being left out due to a few additional suspension mods, yet cars that people actually drive!
    Your Sway bar analagy is good... but you are having to use a 'Stock' class ruling for comparison... not the case in SP...
    I see it this way... SM had begun as a class for no 'weenie' protests (Exact words, not mine)... Wouldn't you agree, that a protest for Triangulated Subframes, when every other subframe connector is legal, be weenie?? I do.
    Dave
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    27 Feb 2001 09:15 AM
    Here's the deal on the SFCs from my personal experience perspective. I suppose that's not worth the price of a cup of coffee, but here goes. SCCAForums Image

    I was involved with F-body Camaros and Firebirds for several years before I knew anything about autox or the SCCA.

    The addition of SFCs to late model Camaros and Firebirds is very popular due to the fact that these cars have T-tops, and it is perceived that rattles result with time and mileage/wear on these cars. After all, cars are a big financial investment.

    There are several brands of SFCs made for these cars, but only one brand is triangulated, to wit, Kenny Brown Double Diamond SFCs. I just happened to pick the brand that **is** triangulated long before I learned about the technicalities of the SCCA and autox. A lot of people will even argue that Kenny Brown SFCs don't even provide the best structural rigidity among the SFC brand choices, although that is a point that in my mind has always been debateable. SCCAForums Image

    Therefore, I could spend the $200 for a fully SM legal set of SFCs and another maybe $200 to have the triangulated SFCs cut out and the new ones welded into the undercarriage. But, since, in my mind, and the minds of virtually everyone who owns an F-body, Kenny Brown SFCs don't create a big handling advantage, it all seems lame to me in the name of some broad brush rules on the part of the SCCA. Eventually, when I have some spare money, maybe a switch will take place. SCCAForums Image

    However, as Dave has correctly alluded, and I have mentioned previously, p.261 Section II. B. of the 2000 SCCA Solo rulebook states the notion that SM class was organized to make room for modified street cars, and the enthusiasts who have modified them, with the "popular" modifications. The SFC rule flies in the face of the spirit of the rulebook in that light when it comes to Camaros and Firebirds. This is a very sore point with us as F-body owners. SCCAForums Image

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    Bob Hempy
    SoPac Cal Club GRA
    CSCC Solo2 E-Board Secretary
    PGM 1995 Z28 A4 (grocery getter)
    NBM 1998 Z28 M6 (autox car)
    SM #27

    [This message has been edited by NBM LS1 M6 (edited February 27, 2001).]
    DG2
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    27 Feb 2001 11:26 AM
    Given the amount of virtual ink you've spilled on the subject, this is an issue you're pretty passionate about.

    Put aside your passion for a moment. Forget you ever saw an F-Body, never mind own one. Think like a rules maker for a second.

    1) The single largest source of expendature in motorsports is chassis development, and that by a couple of orders of magnitude. Motors are cheap, chassis are expensive.

    2) Chassis development pays larger performance dividends than anything else, especially in autocross. You will find more time in sorting out the suspension and chassis than you will EVER find in the motor.

    3) Accordingly, anyone who has the resources to do serious chassis development will have a huge advantage over someone who does not. From a rules maker perspective then, you want iron-fisted tight control over chassis development - that's where the time is, and that's where the money is. Restrict chassis modifications, and you keep costs and performance way down. This is a good thing.

    4) It is very, very difficult to write unambiguous rules that permit certain classes or "good" chassis mods while prohibiting the "bad" when the "good" and "bad" are physically similar in some way. A rule that opens the door to a "good" piece (like the KB SFC arguably is) may well open the door for someone with the resources and imagination to design a "bad" piece that is completely within the letter of the law.

    5) It is far, far better to exclude the small subset of people with "good" (but problematic) pieces rather than write a rule that allows them in at the expense of opening the door to ONE "bad" piece. Better to piss off a minority than to ruin the whole deal for EVERYBODY.

    6) The waters get even MORE cloudy when you consider the vast numbers of different cars that run in the class. A rule designed to accomodate a specific item on a specific car (like an f-body) might have completely unforseen consequences on other cars.

    I'll give you an example from the drag race world - wheelie bars. On a RWD car, wheelie bars are a safety item. On a FWD car, wheelie bars are a _performance_ item (they load the front tires for more grip) No RWD driver in history has ever gone faster by bolting on a set of wheelie bars; in import (FWD) drag racing, they're a fact of life.

    When you look at all this, you should see that while the KB Double Diamond SFCs are not necessarily some super-evil item in of themselves, changing the rules to allow them in would open the door to modifications that are FAR more effective and expensive. It's like curing a headache by cutting off your head - it may well work, but it's a pretty Phyrric solution.

    So I'm afraid your crusade to get the Double Diamonds allowed in is pretty well a wasted effort - not gonna happen. Sorry. It sucks that you had them installed before you ever encountered the SCCA rulebook, but sometimes life sucks. If you want to be legal, you're going to have to cut them out and install legal ones.

    DG
    NBM LS1 M6
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    27 Feb 2001 12:57 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by DG2: [b] Put aside your passion for a moment. Forget you ever saw an F-Body, never mind own one. Think like a rules maker for a second. . . [/b]


    I agree with absolutely everything you have said in your message. I fully understand the rationale behind the mind of the "rules makers."

    On the other hand, we are talking about one class where I thought the spirit of the rationale for the organization of that class is delineated on p.261 Section II. B of the SCCA rulebook.

    BTW, would someone please show me the place in the rulebook that says this class was organized for the imported sport compact enthusiast and not for **all** enthusiasts with popular modifications to street cars?

    Why not have room for one class where people can enter and just have fun?

    Let's face it. . . those who are competing SERIOUSLY in SCCA stock classes, a fortiori Street Prepared classes, in many cases are NOT just bringing their daily driver to the event. Some of them cherry pick a class and cherry pick a car to run in that class for one year. Then, they spend the big bucks for the mods to fine tune that stock class car for that little extra edge in collaboration with professional expertise so that the car is even more of a killer in the hands of the right driver. Then they sell that car, and begin to plan what car will be the cherry picker in next years campaign. That is what it looks like to me at any rate.

    There is a fine example, of the notion in the previous paragraph, found in the "Cars for Sale" folder in this forum. There is a car for sale there. It won both open and ladies class at nationals last Fall in a particular class. It has less than 7500 miles on the clock, and it certainly appears to me that it was purchased with the sole intent of campaigning the car for one year at nationals. After all, who knows for sure what will be the killer car in each stock class next Fall in the hands of the right driver? That changes with the latest introduction to the market and advancing technology.

    Bob
    ColinL
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    27 Feb 2001 01:29 PM
    We're getting off track here but Dave is a gracious host SCCAForums Image so...

    Bob, it is an autocross competitor's right to choose whatever car they want for whatever class, especially if they have the money and motivation to do so. They can take the sport as seriously as they want.

    Me? I like autocross and want a car reasonably competitive but think about what we're doing here-- we get maybe 5 minutes of seat time at a large event, and even then only in 40-60 second chunks. My car would be a lot more competitive this year in STS rather than SM because the only mods I have putting me in SM are cams and some DIY head porting. Those two mods made my car more enjoyable for the street though, and I don't care if I win as long as I have fun and get better as a driver. Besides, I'd end up in SM next year anyway when I go more wild with the engine mods. SCCAForums Image STS also doesn't allow non-stock clutches, and the stock 2.5RS clutch sucks.
    NBM LS1 M6
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    27 Feb 2001 02:15 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ColinL:
    [b]We're getting off track here but Dave is a gracious host SCCAForums Image so...

    Bob, it is an autocross competitor's right to choose whatever car they want for whatever class, especially if they have the money and motivation to do so. They can take the sport as seriously as they want.[/b]


    Don't get me wrong. I agree wholeheartedly. Believe me, if I had the money and the time I would do the same. When I do buy my next car, it will run in a stock class at first, and picking a competitive car will be a factor.

    I'm probably not a threat in SM at a Tour or a Pro yet, but when I do become a threat, the less than legal mods will come off the car. That is still my long term plan.

    In the meantime, I just want to feel free to enter the Tour and Pro when they come to SoCal locally once each year. Besides, Dave says he has my back next month when I run the car at San Diego and El Toro.

    If it is really a problem, I'll be glad to enter my car in CP or EM. Won't that be a sight to see!! That almost would be like Dave entering his Z06 in a NASCAR event. Hey Dave, don't get any ideas!! SCCAForums Image

    Bob
    DG2
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    02 Mar 2001 09:32 AM
    Street Modified has a tradition of squinting a little at illegalities on newbie and backmarker cars.

    The general rule of thumb is that if you have something illegal on the car that predates the car running it's first SM race, then we look the other way - as long as you commit to fixing the problem as soon as possible, and as long as it's not something particularly gruesome (like a supercharger on a Mustang 5.0)

    Note however that this is done as a measure of convenience and common sense - anybody you beat while the car is illegal has the right to protest if they really feel the need to, and that protest is considered non-weenie for performance-enhancing items. The rules still apply, we just try and encourage a little common dog and understanding when it comes to newbies.

    It's even easier to do at Regional levels - if all your Regional class competitors have no issue with your Double Diamonds, then you can keep them.

    If you're planning to do National events though, they'll have to come out eventually.

    DG
    The bottom line is that
    Dave Schotz
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    02 Mar 2001 10:21 AM
    Well Said Dennis, and I think Bob, is under the same impression.
    Thanks!
    Dave
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