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Last Post 03 Feb 2006 04:39 PM by  zzyzx
ITE growing class. How to expand the rules to make for close racing
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mark kibort
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30 Aug 2005 01:32 PM

    ITE is one of the fastest growing groups in SCCA club racing today. On the West coast, we are regularly seeing 20+ entries in ITE, mixed with 5 other classes, a couple of those being ITX and Spec Miata. its a great group, not a lot of rules and surely teaches the lost art of running in highly disparate speed traffic. However, there are limits, and im seeing a limit being reached now, as some SpeedGT prepared cars start to practice at their home tracks for upcoming pro races using ITE. My opinion is mixed. on one hand, cars like this truely belong in SP or GT1 in the other run group, but at some point where do you draw the line. is it HP to weight ratios, over stock engine size for the chassis, number of the car produced, stock body panels, etc?????
    I dont have all the answers but have been doing this long enough to know that eventually, the 15 seconds speed differential could turn to 20 seconds a lap if something isnt done to narrow the rules slightly. Some are taking the points battle pretty seriously, and thats fine. But, how do we make ITE a competitve place to run for most all cars but exclude the cars that have a potential to decrease safety in the field that usually can be up to 60cars in the run group that encompasses ITE

    As most of you know, ITE is a class where its run what you brung, but it better have a VIN and DOT race rubber. this means, GT3 porsche cup cars (factory built race cars), Comp coupe Vipers (also factory built race cars, and Panos can't run, but any of the SpeedGT conversion cars can. Kind of a double standard, that should be addressed. I certainly would not want to exclude any monster vet that someone has built, but where do we draw the line? I have a stock Porsche 928 that has a set of headers and big tires and basically runs at the same weight and times as Grand Am Cup GS class today. Im usually in the top 4 cars even when a few well build viper race cars show up in ITE. There is an Evo now, just turning up the boost so he can beat everyone, and thats fine too. Im thinking we do something with engine size vs what production vehicle came with, and with turbo cars, some factor over stock boost.

    I dont have the answer and would like some ideas from the folks that run in this class. I obviously dont want to make this class a hassle for anyone, so the rules should be clear and crisp, but somehow give some limit of performance for the cars entering. Right now its production vehicles, on DOT tires. this means it had to be a production vehicle from the factory and runs DOTs . maybe there is one other easy to follow rule that could narrow and limit the prep, to somehow keep a GT1 type car from just slapping on the DOTs and run with the group. or, they add another class within ITE where ITE -1 (for example) is say, just production vehicles with production size engines in the car and ITE 2 all other production vehicles unlimited.

    Let me know what you guys think

    Mark Kibort

    1986 Porsche 928S

    ITE SFR SCCA

    johnc
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    31 Aug 2005 11:12 AM

    ITE is a class where its run what you brung, but it better have a VIN and DOT race rubber.

    You just listed the reason for the class' success. If you change that by adding rules your participation numbers will drop. Every region needs a "run whatchya brung" class.

    Speed differential is not really a safety issue IMO. In Cal Club I've raced a SRF in the Sports Racer group and during the Friday practices the SRF, Sports Racers, and Open Wheel cars are often grouped together. Ever been on the track with a few Formula Atlantics lapping 30+ seconds a lap faster then your little 105hp SRF? The issue isn't the speed differences, the issue is driver's paying attention.

    mark kibort
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    31 Aug 2005 02:27 PM
    I agree. I havent felt any issues running with this group, other than the slow cars falling a sleep and then you just expect the unexpected and you are safe. some dont use that approach and have paid for it. we see differential times of 20-30 seconds too. yes, ive even been around FA cars when street cars and FA cars could run in DE groups!!!! Personally, i think its awesome. but some dont share my thoughts there.
    its really about making the class a somewhat competitive class for the run what you brung racer.
    small additoins to the rules will not drop the entries. Now we are over 20 per race not including the 40 other cars potentially in 5 other classes.
    Im just talking, they have a rule for production vehicles. why? they want to have a class where privateer with not a lot of resourses can build a car and go out and compete well. even though factory race cars are "based " on factory chassis , they are not allowed. why, its too easy to cut a check and have a car that can guarantee a win at almost any reasonable skill level. I guess the real question is how do you limit cars that are built up to SpeedGT specs? I dont know. certainly wouldnt want any hot car owner to be excluded from ITE. I dont think ITE is for speedGT cars, factory race cars, etc. thats why comp coups and GT3s and panos run in GT1 or GT2 in the other group.
    maybe its a simple factory block serial number and some limit on boost and displacement over factoy specs requirement that limts the class. I dont know, thats why im asking for feedback.

    Im ok with it the way it is because it is just an awesome class. like speedGT but for the non-millionare
    with 20 cars in class, its a pretty exciting club class!
    rmackintosh
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    28 Sep 2005 04:32 PM
    I hear ya Mark!

    There seems to be a LOT MORE of the "big boys" coming to play in the sandbox this year than I can ever remember before! I have kind of mixed emotions about it. I left ITC basically because it was down to 5-6 cars a weekend. My buddies said...."man IT-Expensive is gonna always be 3-5 cars per weekend as well.....you should race a Miata..." Well, my feelings about Miata's have been WELL documented on other sites...so I went with the ITE car BECAUSE it was so much different from the low HP Datsun I had run for so long.

    I have been pretty happy with the growth of ITE since I came.....27 cars for the Laguna race this weekend...that is ALMOST to the 30+ cars I was used to seeing in ITC back in the day! I like racing with more cars. However....I HAVE noticed that the bar has gone up...SUBSTANTIALLY...with my car STILL in its infancy developement wise...I finally got the car down to times that would be top three just a year ago. Those times are now a DISTANT 5th or 6th on a GOOD DAY this year.....barely top ten when the pro guys come to "test".

    But the question is....how do you "limit" the class without ruining its appeal to some/all of us. There WILL ALWAYS be the "Evo type" who spend more prepping for a race weekend than both you and I combined for a SEASON! ;-) I don't think the class should "regulate" them...it is "unfortunate" that some choose to win by such means (cubic $$$) in amatuer racing, but hey, that is racing right there....always has been, always will be.

    However, I think there COULD be a case made for an additional class....maybe ITP (Improved Touring Pro) that the World Challenge, Grand-Am, etc. guys could come and compete/test in. Those cars can be just rediculous.....how you determine the cut off however is the issue, and someone such as yourself would have to be a "champion" of the cause to the region...because it WOULD be a regional only kind of deal. But I think, if you put a petition together with some thought, you could circulate it amongst the ITE drivers and get something done in SFR....

    JMHO
    RacerCosmo
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    28 Sep 2005 10:12 PM
    The return of B Production (GT) and D Production (Touring) as a Club Racing counterpart to World Challenge has been suggested to the powers-that-be so we can hope that it comes through.
    mark kibort
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    07 Oct 2005 07:02 PM

    Hi Randy and Cosmo! ,

    This last weekend was a blast. pretty fun rallying with Speed Touring cars (ive alwasys said, my wanabe Speed GT 928 was really a good top 10 touring car! ha ha) Man, even the Real-Time acuras are blistering fast! (ie kleinubing,Davis and of course PD Cunningham)

    Anyway, i think it would be a shame to not let those folks run in our group. You have a great idea about making another class or two within the ITE spec. (ie anything goes with a production vehicle, non tubed fame on DOTs) I like having a stockish class and an unlimited class in ITE. stockish having stock displacment and no oversized fender flares (stock bodies) and the other could go nuts (like the evo and vipers) I think vipers would have to be in the "go nuts" class, not only due to the 8 liter 500hp engine, but because it is a mostly tubed frame chassis.

    Ill have to think of a way to position the class break up to make everyone happy. I think the main thing with most of the guys testing, is just getting track time, so i woudnt think they would care. Then, ITE or Groupe 1 becomes a more street car oriented version of the Group3 with the GT1/2/3/4 classes on DOT tires.

    Mark

    RacerCosmo
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    08 Oct 2005 10:12 PM
    I wish I could have made it over there last weekend. We just ran out of time. We're running at Sears Point with NASA this weekend.
    scott Sanda
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    10 Nov 2005 06:55 PM
    ITE is a great and growing class. What you have to remember however is that the rules differ. obviously where mark is they forbid factory race cars. Here we expanded the rules to include any tub chassis car on DOT tires build to another amature or pro race series rules. That way we can get crossover from PCA, BMW, and all the WC cars out there. The only major requirement is that the car MUST meet all SCCA safety requirements.

    We also use SP for the tube frame cars and tub cars that run slicks.

    We split the classes in half based on displacement.

    ITE1 is 3.0L and up normally aspirated, 2.5L and up forced induction, ITE2 is cars below those numbers. SP is split into SPO and SPU along the same lines.


    Scott Sanda
    Chicago region

    RacerCosmo
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    12 Nov 2005 09:19 PM
    I understand Mark's comments. There is a problem though. I can build an exact duplicate of a Competition Coupe out of an SRT-10 and the same goes with a GT3-RSR. I could actually make cars that are faster than those by using forced induction. Should all Vipers and 996s be excluded from ITE because they have the potential to be winning cars?
    I could also build a Lancer Evolution that is faster than Kent Jordan's car.
    Scotty B
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    15 Nov 2005 03:19 AM

    Mark, you gotta get over all this crap about what a production car is... A WCGT C5R kit is every bit as much a production car as yer ol Porch as is a F360 Stradale as a F360c as a 993C4s as a 996cup as is a comp coupe or anything that starts life at the same factory the same model does that mom hauls groceries in...

    You are waaaaaaaaaaayy to worried about how much the price of admission was for other people and I submit that if your finances and free time changed that you were able to update to your latest and greatest model of your beloved marque of porch 997cup your tune would change dramiticly because you would want to do exactly what this class was createdfor and that would be to practice for the big show (WCGT) when it came to town....

    It is a class for "production based" cars on DOT tires and the thought that we would keep out a car built and sold by the mfg as a "turn-key racecar" that could be "duplicated exactly in my race shop from parts purchased from the same mfg starting with a street car" at a much greater expense and much more time consumed to complete and ultimately worth ahelluva lot less is beyond stupid, self serving and pointless! We went through this whole excorsize in the NW for a year and a half and everyone finally pulled their heads out and the sky never did fall in...

    Wana know sumthin funy though...? It was all Porsche guys behind trying to eliminate the WCGT and Grand AM Cup cars from running...[;)] Let it go and just go have fun Mark...

    sbw

    Richard Pryor
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    17 Nov 2005 03:10 PM
    The rules in SFR for ITE are, and should be, no tube frames, DOT tires, safety equipment, go race. If you are concerned about cost and rules, the T series classes are fantastic. T1 and T2 have grown tremendously and the new T3 class promises the same. Disadvantage is if you have an old car like yours, Mark (which you drive amazingly well...so well you should try a T class to see how you'll finish against people running the same rules). SCCA regions have given cars that otherwise would be consigned to open track days a class to race in but don't try and change the run-what-you-brung rules. You are being both catered to and tolerated at the same time. To me ITE is the equivalent of masterbation...it's something you do by yourself because no one else is prepared to the same rules...now classes like T classes where you're playing with others on the same rules package...well that's like a threesome with Angelina Jolie and Charlize Theron...have fun and practice safe...driving...rp
    rmackintosh
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    17 Nov 2005 05:43 PM

    Richard Pryor wrote:
    The rules in SFR for ITE are, and should be, no tube frames, DOT tires, safety equipment, go race. If you are concerned about cost and rules, the T series classes are fantastic. T1 and T2 have grown tremendously and the new T3 class promises the same. Disadvantage is if you have an old car like yours, Mark (which you drive amazingly well...so well you should try a T class to see how you'll finish against people running the same rules). SCCA regions have given cars that otherwise would be consigned to open track days a class to race in but don't try and change the run-what-you-brung rules. You are being both catered to and tolerated at the same time. To me ITE is the equivalent of masterbation...it's something you do by yourself because no one else is prepared to the same rules...now classes like T classes where you're playing with others on the same rules package...well that's like a threesome with Angelina Jolie and Charlize Theron...have fun and practice safe...driving...rp

    ...damn...guess I like masterbation too damn much....

    Angelina and Charlize
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    18 Nov 2005 12:27 PM
    Dear Randy,
    Give us a call and we'll change your mind. Angelina and Charlize (and we hope you live up to your name) 213-548-5462
    RacerCosmo
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    19 Nov 2005 02:47 AM
    Richard, you are insane.
    TEXAST1
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    19 Nov 2005 08:41 AM
    There are some old T cars looking for a home. In the Southwest Division my 5.7 C5 is too big for ITE. It is also under prepared for SP. (No Fuel Cell)

    I am going to have to petition our region to make a new class or change the rules to allow over 3.0. I like the idea of ITE-1 or 2 or Big vs Small.
    Scotty B
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    19 Nov 2005 11:34 AM

    That's ok yer a nAsA guy now aAywAys [:P]

    sbw

    mark kibort
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    14 Dec 2005 04:18 PM

    Hey, I hear you all. I guess ive been lucky to find a playing field for the old girl (the 928). It just so happens to be prepared to the grand am cup cars, at about the same weight and hp, but very low cost to operate. as far as what SBW and Richard (as well as Comos), i hear this too. sure, the comp coup viper can be build from a stock viper, BUT, to the rules this means you need to get stock viper and rip it apart! the wording of "production vehicle" not "production like", means you have to go through the cycles to build one.

    I certainly dont care who shows up,and if a SWC car shows up that is eligible, then thats great! they can knock themselves out, because ITE is a run what-cha brung group, and if someone wants to stretch the rules with a viper (which is actually mostly tubed framed anyway) or a C6, run the challenge 360 (which i have seen and diced with before) or do as Kent jordan did, own the season, and have no one to run with , by stuffing 500+hp in that thing and finance a full team to capture the illustrious ITE title, then again, knock yourselves out! But, to say ITE is masturbation, is funny. sometimes you get a group like we did with a greenish viper, and a world challenge BMW and 2 others build to the same performance. we all had the lead at one time in the race. when was the last time you were in a group of 4 cars all having the lead at one point in time? I dont know about you, but thats a heck of a good time.

    anyway, all this, and you guys are probably right to keep the rules the way they are. It definitely excludes turn key racers like the comp coupe and GT3 cup car, but yes, we all know that most all of the speed GT WC cars can be brought out as is and have their way with lapping the entire field. And, i have no problem with that. But, i dont thing the class should make it easy, and thats the point.

    Until they make a class like Grand Am cup GS but lengthen the legibility years from 4 to 20, ill have to play here in ITE, and im still racing!!!!! I think T1 is a great class, but now you still need a ton of cash to compete well, at least to get the car up to the SBW level. But, in grand am cup GS, i would have no problem taking a relatively stock BMW/porsche and running as hard as i needed to keep up! ( i guess, they only get a chip and sometimes headers! running 310 rear wheel hp for the BMWs or 275ish HP for the 996s and weighing about 3000lbs)

    now, the winter wait is setting in!!!

    MK

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...928+racing

    Richard Pryor wrote:
    The rules in SFR for ITE are, and should be, no tube frames, DOT tires, safety equipment, go race. If you are concerned about cost and rules, the T series classes are fantastic. T1 and T2 have grown tremendously and the new T3 class promises the same. Disadvantage is if you have an old car like yours, Mark (which you drive amazingly well...so well you should try a T class to see how you'll finish against people running the same rules). SCCA regions have given cars that otherwise would be consigned to open track days a class to race in but don't try and change the run-what-you-brung rules. You are being both catered to and tolerated at the same time. To me ITE is the equivalent of masterbation...it's something you do by yourself because no one else is prepared to the same rules...now classes like T classes where you're playing with others on the same rules package...well that's like a threesome with Angelina Jolie and Charlize Theron...have fun and practice safe...driving...rp

    mark kibort
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    14 Dec 2005 04:27 PM

    I certainly think that the 350 chevys should be able to run . heck we have a lot of vets and cameros that run and they are very competitive , and certainly dont run away. usually its something nimbler that wins, unless the hp gets in the 500 range.

    maybe they should limit the HP to weight instead of displacement in your neck of the woods Heck that Evo we had out there was running 26lbs of boost and 440hp at the wheels !! (and 4x4)

    5.7liter should be the limit for this class, as the much larger engines can run in spo, or GT1, etc.

    MK

    TEXAST1 wrote:
    There are some old T cars looking for a home. In the Southwest Division my 5.7 C5 is too big for ITE. It is also under prepared for SP. (No Fuel Cell)

    I am going to have to petition our region to make a new class or change the rules to allow over 3.0. I like the idea of ITE-1 or 2 or Big vs Small.

    Scotty B
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    14 Dec 2005 11:48 PM
    mark kibort wrote:

    i hear this too. sure, the comp coup viper can be build from a stock viper, BUT, to the rules this means you need to get stock viper and rip it apart! the wording of "production vehicle" not "production like", means you have to go through the cycles to build one.

    Mark, you're "ALL" by yerself in that convoluted d=and tortured interpretation of a production vehicle... We went through this ITE BS in the NW and they went through it in SFR and fixed it there too afaik...

    Quit worrying about it, and enjoy more guys being able to race. It's all symantics and you are torturing it for no good reason...

    sbw

    TEXAST1
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    16 Dec 2005 08:34 AM
    SBW what was the out come? Did your Left Coast Upper half get it done?[8-|]
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