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Last Post 26 Sep 2005 11:55 AM by  nick littleton
T2 v. AS
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Primetime Glick
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08 Sep 2005 11:04 AM

    Just curious... I may do this down the road.

    1. T2 v. AS: which is cheaper? I know used T2/AS cars have about the same purchase prices, but does one car break a particular part(s) more or require other ancillary expenses more than the other class?

    2. T2 v. AS: which is a faster car?

    3. Ultimately, which car overall would be a better for a beginning, non-competitive road racer of [somewhat] limited resources?

    What do y'all think?

    sccaITSsentra
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    08 Sep 2005 11:20 AM
    I belive T2 is cheaper, the break alot less and are pretty reliable and easy to maintain. AS cars are usually always faster ( equal drivers ) but there are a few track were T-2 isnt much slower, there are a few real tight tracks were there identical and even faster then some slower AS cars.

    If you have a t-2 car u could still drive it on the street , for fun or to mess around ( legally that is)

    But id say depending on the car you choose, a top dollar cts-v versus a older AS car then AS would be cheaper, but plan to turn alot fo wrenches and carry alot of spares, But if you buy a F body T-2 versus a AS F body the T-2 would be cheaper, more reliable etc in my opinion
    jcmotorsports
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    08 Sep 2005 11:23 AM
    I would have to say that T2 may be cheaper due to the limited modifications, but by no means are either cheap!!!!! i have heard that AS motors are upward of $25K.
    Which car is faster depends on the track and the carand of course the driver. the AS cars are very fast almost GT1 cars
    The most important answer and the one that i have the most knowledge of is to question #3. NEITHER of these cars is good to start in!!!!!!! If you want to be a fast driver you need to learn how to drive a car at the limit at all times! These cars they are too fast and handle too well to really learn to drive in one. I started in ITS and made a huge mistake!!!!!!! I have recently purchased an SSC car and I am beginning to "learn to drive". i raced the ITS car for 2seasons with limited results!!! The showroom stock cars leave no room for mistakes; you MUST drive these cars at the limit ALL the time to be FAST. These cars don't have modifications to cover up for poor driving. I was a mid-pack ITS driver with a very well prepared ITS car. Since then I have(in the SSC car at a national level) won my first race, finished third in the Northeast Division, and qualified for the Runoffs!
    The cost is relatively low in SS. I am someone who changes brakes, tires ,and all fluids for EVERY RACE.


    Dave Schotz
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    08 Sep 2005 12:32 PM
    Question 1: For a 'Nationally Competitive Car' T2 is cheaper... for a locally competitive car AS is cheaper... you can find 'older A-Sedan cars for less than $10K...

    Question 2: Again... Nationally... A-Sedan is faster... Locally... T2 is commonly faster depending on your region. But typcially AS should be a bit quicker.

    Queation 3: I think T2 would be better... due to Newer cars overall, and less to mess with. Also... since I have one of the best prepped T2 Cars in the country for sale for just $15K... and comes with upwards of $10K - $15K in Spares!!! (That you'll probably never need... but there always nice to have) :) (Personally... SSB/SSC could just never do it for me... some people just gotta have V8!) [Y]

    Here's a link to the car for sale ;)

    [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/151428...;/url]
    Primetime Glick
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    08 Sep 2005 12:57 PM

    Dave Schotz wrote:
    Question 1: For a 'Nationally Competitive Car' T2 is cheaper... for a locally competitive car AS is cheaper... you can find 'older A-Sedan cars for less than $10K...

    Question 2: Again... Nationally... A-Sedan is faster... Locally... T2 is commonly faster depending on your region. But typcially AS should be a bit quicker.

    Queation 3: I think T2 would be better... due to Newer cars overall, and less to mess with. Also... since I have one of the best prepped T2 Cars in the country for sale for just $15K... and comes with upwards of $10K - $15K in Spares!!! (That you'll probably never need... but there always nice to have) :) (Personally... SSB/SSC could just never do it for me... some people just gotta have V8!) [Y]

    Here's a link to the car for sale ;)

    [url]http://sccaforums.com/forums/151428...;/url]

    Ooops, I shoulda said it was Camarostang T2 v. AS.

    Easy dave... DOWN the road is the idea. Not yet :)

    The idea is also to spend a lot of track/time trial time in it before actual racing. I may not be a great driver... but I have a bit of autocross experience... and to me, SSC cars are just too slow for an open track :)

    I thought AS would be cheaper than T2... I thought the idea behind the class to actually keep costs down by allowing upgrades on some of the weaker parts, and keep HP down to lower stresses on drivetrain... hmmmm... prep-wise, like a class in-between NASA CMC and AI

    Dave Schotz
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    08 Sep 2005 01:07 PM
    I definitely think 'locally' A-Sedan can be cheaper than T2... you can get the cars for anywhere between 7K - 10K... and if you just want track time... they'll do it very well!

    Peace!
    Primetime Glick
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    08 Sep 2005 01:56 PM

    Dave Schotz wrote:
    I definitely think 'locally' A-Sedan can be cheaper than T2... you can get the cars for anywhere between 7K - 10K... and if you just want track time... they'll do it very well!

    Peace!

    it still surprises me that people say AS cars are more finicky than t2 cars

    t2 camarostangs don't pound tires, wheel bearings, u-joints, diffs, PS pumps, FLCA bushings, front shock mounts, etc etc etc????

    or is that more ssb camarostangs?

    you don't have to tell me AS cars have way more "knobs to turn" (and jets to tune, ugh give me EFI) but i guessed they would have less repair downtime than t2 cars. maybe AS tuning time v. T2 repair time cancels itself out?

    JSirota
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    08 Sep 2005 03:00 PM
    Primetime Glick wrote:

    The idea is also to spend a lot of track/time trial time in it before actual racing. I may not be a great driver... but I have a bit of autocross experience... and to me, SSC cars are just too slow for an open track :)



    You know, I used to agree with that. SSC cars might be slow on an open track, the key word being OPEN. If you're going to do time trials or HPDE or something, then maybe I'll agree. But in a RACE, SSC cars are plenty fast. If you're right on the bumper of the guy in front of you, or racing door-to-door, it doesn't matter what your speed is, only the speed differentials. It's a lot of fun to race an SSC car. Trust me. I didn't think it would be, but I was wrong.

    Primetime Glick
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    08 Sep 2005 03:53 PM

    JSirota wrote:
    It's a lot of fun to race an SSC car. Trust me. I didn't think it would be, but I was wrong.

    no doubt and i am definitely not knocking ssc competition. however, with most autocrossing playing to small, low-power cars on low-speed courses i'd finally like to do some open tracking with a car that's got some kick. not that either t2 or AS camarostangs would have a lot, but i'm never going to afford buying and wrecking a t1 vette/viper...

    unless i fold up the "open track" car b/f i get into competition, mines' well just keep the camarostang and use it --even if i'm not exactly in a "beginner" class, if there is such a thing.

    i just figured t2 or AS in a mass-produced, cheap-part camarostang would be have a pretty decent (if not the best) speed/cost ratio. after doing the accordian trick, if i have any resources (or health!) left, i might consider a $5000 ssc car. but this is all daydreaming and a couple years away. gonna take some time to obtain truck/trailer/garage/lift.

    scott Sanda
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    08 Sep 2005 08:15 PM
    It all depends on what you want. A decent regional AS car is a blast, and fairly cheap, but it is not built or running to the limit. A nationally competative AS car is $$$$. lots of engines, gearboxes and rear ends needed.

    A nice regional T2 car is alos pretty inexpensive, and probably pretty bullitproof.

    Either car is good, and your decision will come down to what feels better to you.

    As a beginner, i would go for a regional prepped car, and drive it a lot, eventually doing some nationals and seeing what it takes.

    Then you decide, with a lot more data, what you want to go National racing in.

    IT is also a great class to start and learn in. You can tinker, but your costs are fairly limited.

    Scott
    sccaITSsentra
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    08 Sep 2005 09:04 PM
    why dont you turn your rx-8 into a t-3 car
    Primetime Glick
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    09 Sep 2005 07:51 AM

    sccaITSsentra wrote:
    why dont you turn your rx-8 into a t-3 car

    because it got it's FIRST CHIP in it the other day and I am wigging out :-0

    maybe if i keep it instead of trading it, 2-3 yrs down the road. but it's still a) too complicated and b) too slow (in a straight line, that is :) )

    trhoppe
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    09 Sep 2005 11:36 AM
    We picked T2 to start in as I'm a big Subaru guy and we already had the car. Should be fun and not *too* expensive. Not looking to win runoffs next year or anything, but just to make a few people upset in the SE ;) We'll see what happens.

    -Tom
    prsmith
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    13 Sep 2005 08:30 PM
    I started racing A/S 3 years ago and have had some good times and some very bad times. I have totalled two cars. One in the kink at RA which was pure driver error and one at the last national at MO. Brake line failure. The line just developed a leak, no external damage it just went bad.

    I have won a number of national races and have competed against some very good A/S drivers and have not been that far off. Here is the A/S price break down for a Top national car capable of winning the run offs.

    I run the Camaro.

    Good used car $10,000-$12,000
    New motor built to current
    specs $6,000-$12,000
    Quality front shocks $500
    Quality rear shocks $800
    Tremec 5 Sp or Built T-10 $1,800-$2,800

    This list doesn't include stuff like new brakes, hub and rotors, new clutch, new steering box, etc.

    The problem with older cheaper A/S cars is everything is old on them. Racing is hard and doing it on older parts means that the parts will fail. My brake line problem was because I used a set of brake lines that I had lying around. You know I saved $30 bucks, but now I get to build a new car this winter and no run offs. There is a lot to learn about racing and sometimes the lessons are hard and painfull.

    Every part on a race has a life. How long is the life is the key question. If your goal is to race a bunch buy the newest least used race car you can. Used race cars are cheap because they are used up in most cases.

    I love A/S becase they are fast, and you can make them faster. They look and sound like race cars. The class is fairly well developed and the track records are real so if you get close to one you know you are going fast. The cars are also easy to work on because on the extra stuff has been removed.

    A/S cars can be tuned. Springs, shocks and bars are open.

    The cars are also fun to drive. Good power to weight ratios. Ok brakes but getting better hopefully and pretty good tire patch.

    All that said, "There is nothing like winning an honest to goodness automobile race."

    That makes it worth while.

    Philip
    racerbob4
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    15 Sep 2005 01:19 PM
    We have been running T-2 since 1998 in Camaros. We took a really hard look at American Sedan before the decision to go T-2. We saw AS as a class in flux in the late 90's with cxonstant rules changes (read changes cost money) and also that the AS cars were going to take a lot more time to prepare and maintain. Since we wanted to run nationals and at the front the decision was easy and one we haven't regreted. Reading the rules for preperation of a T-2 car gives you a good idea of the "hard" costs. The soft costs or those that are more in maintainence are blueprinting the motor, which should last at least 2 or 3 years under hard use, motor, transmission, and differential oil changes, brake rotors, brake pads, and tires. We end up changing engine oil about every three races, transmission fluid once a season and just before the runoffs, and differential oil before every race. We use a set of brake rotors every race because they crack under racing conditions but they are cheap at Advance Auto Parts who warrantly then for a year. A set of front pads is normal for each race and the compound of rear pad we use is good for almost the whole year. Plan on a set of Kumho 710 per weekend and use the sticker tire for qualifying as they are never any faster than the first use although the Kumho doesnt drop off that much. You can do a national weekend for about $1500 in T-2 with a Z28 Camaro. And by the way, we have the fastest Camaro in the country for sale, finished 2nd at the 2004 runoffs. $25k . Interested call Bob Hines 703-447-1167.
    Primetime Glick
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    16 Sep 2005 08:31 AM

    racerbob4 wrote:
    the AS cars were going to take a lot more time to prepare and maintain.

    Then what is the point of AS? If the cars break/require more maintenance downtime, and are not much faster than T2 (are they?), why would anybody run it? Again, I thought the point of AS was to provide a durable, fast, and cheap racecar, by starting with an essentially stock car and only changing the problem pieces and doing relatively cheap allowances that make the cars faster/ more fun. so as to what y'all have been sayin... is this not reality?

    sccaITSsentra
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    16 Sep 2005 09:08 AM
    hahhhahahah, AS ... cheap and durable ? tHe class is alot of fun and they are fast, but unless your jeff robbins and have unlimited money to blow on amateur club racing your going to feel the pinch ( just kiddin jeff, can I drive the viper now ) on a regional level I think it would be alot more fun and alot better priced but nationals are pretty steep, but I think anything nationally is going to cost. the difference between the classes arent going to be much. It will be what you do have to buy to get the car ready to go again. best bang for your buck has got to be ssb ssc , which will soon be t3 t 4 some of the upcoming t3 cars will be fast also. I already got my next year car and this one lets me race for money instead of $2.35 trophies, skip this racing for free crap ......
    Primetime Glick
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    16 Sep 2005 01:21 PM

    sccaITSsentra wrote:
    I think anything nationally is going to cost. the difference between the classes arent going to be much. It will be what you do have to buy to get the car ready to go again. .

    this I already knew. but I just thought an AS 305 *might* be cheaper than a T2 LS1 and less of the annoying stuff, like diffs, hub bearings, shock mounts, rubber bushings, etc. would break in AS vs. T2. even though I haven't gotten a clear answer to this sort of question, i'm guessing you'd all pretty much tilt to the "no" side... ?

    as far as everything being in top condition or having multiple gearboxes, always fresh motors, and different suspension packages for each track -- no, that is not the point; the intention is to just have a learner/regional car. so that component of downtime -- AS requiring more tuning time due to more allowed changes -- that would not apply to me. i simply would not change anything like gears, springs, etc track to track, it wouldn't make a difference with me. don't expect that I could pull a Schotz and jump into road racing from autocross and not only run competively, but win races off the bat :)

    prsmith
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    16 Sep 2005 03:26 PM
    Primetime Glick

    It all depends how fast you want to go. I know of a number of A/S drives with very low budgets that have a great time. They tend to be a couple of seconds off the pace but they always have someone to race. It is amazing how much those two seconds cost.

    There is a much bigger gap between fast and slow A/S cars then fast and slow t-2 cars. That is the real difference in the classes. T-2's tend to be more expensive but they tend to run closer together given the same driver. A/S cars are much different. You can get a fairly low price car with a 325 hp motor, t-5, iron brakes, steel drive shaft and cheap shocks and go racing. You are not going to run with the top national guys with that set up. You need 400 hp, great shocks, new tires, and all the light weight stuff to run at the front and that is assuming you can drive the thing.

    Buy and A/S or t-2 car and have fun.

    Send me a private mail if you want to discuss more.

    Philip
    nick littleton
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    16 Sep 2005 06:06 PM
    Another aspec of the T2 vs AS equation is what you will be able to learn in each class, both in driving and set up. Driving an AS car fast is not that easy to do, very nose heavy car, smallish tires, ample hp and brakes that could use some improvement. There really isnt any aspec of the cars that you can say is Good, other than hp, maybe (that is if you spend the money for it). All things considered, a great class to learn to drive in. I would say if you can go fast in AS you can go fast in any sedan type car.

    On to set up. I feel the GOOD thing about AS is that you can change things. It brings another level of competition to the table. Being able to understand and tune a chassis is a great skill and you wont really get that chance if you are in T2. Sure, tuning the chassis comes with working on your car, but what the hell do you bring tools to the track for? It seems most racers like to tinker by nature anyway. Of course if you dont like getting your hands dirty AS wont be your cup of tea, but there have been many weekends with my AS car where all I did was make sure the air cleaner was tight. (it was kinda boring actually)

    All in all it seems AS gets a bad wrap, yes it is expensive running up front, but that is true in ANY class. (have you heard of the $30,000 spec miata!) I think the key to the class is getting the good parts on the car from the begining, especially drive train, and then taking care of them.

    My suggestion, get the AS car. There is just something about zipping down a staight in a pony car with a solid lifter small block at your right foot. It will make you feel good inside,,, and isnt that what all this is about anyway!

    Cheers, Nick
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