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Last Post 12 Feb 2008 11:49 AM by  DRAG
Addition of SMS final?
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Andy Ucter
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30 Jan 2008 10:57 AM

SMS r00oolz

and I don't see why you don't get it..

who cares about SM locally.. as Geoff mentioned.. could you, as a driver in SM even touch people like Daddio?? in a fully prepped car?? or sais?? etc??

SMS guys are typically newbs who don't want to spend money on dedicated "race rubber" or take time changing tires, moreover.. a majority of these people... e.g. mike benz.. (love ya man, but you're not ready for them) aren't ready for r-comps anyway

I'll stay out of SMS personally, as My borrowed car fits into STU.

more-over.. I would think/hope.. that the powers that be in INDY region would frown on a national or highly competitive driver... going to SMS.. just to beat-up on the kids there...

(E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

I think it is an awesome move for INDY region.. and I am glad to be a member!!!

nice to see such an old region.. staying fresh.. and up to date

brgmcs
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30 Jan 2008 12:46 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:

(E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

Not that I have any intention or desire to move to a class just to "beat up on the kids there" (geez I must be getting old! [:(]) but for the record my car is definitely un-prepped for SM or SMS. I'm essentially driving an STX car, except for the handful of events that I used second tier R compounds at. I'm not legal for STX, but the only thing that kicked me out was a pulley change on the supercharger and the rougly 15hp that gave me. Since then, they've changed the STX rules and it is now easily possible for a 2002-2006 MINI to make the same power my car does within the STX rules. A 2007 or 2008 makes more than I do. I'd love to run STX, but I'm not going to spend almost $5000 to make my car meet the new rules. It's not worth it to me. If I'd bought my car in 2004 or later, I'd still be in STX and the car would be just as "fast" as my car is today.

Other than the pulley, every other change I've made is STX legal. On top of that, I suspect I've had the lowest hp SM car at all of the Indy or CSCC events, though Kevin Miller's Type R probably has less torque.

Now if you want to supply R compounds for me, plus get them to the events for me, I'll be happy to change them each time and stay in SM.[:D]

Racerlinn
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30 Jan 2008 01:07 PM
I have a set of Avon Type "Arrrhhhs" you can have, only slighty used..... [:O]
Eclipse2Lancer
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30 Jan 2008 01:38 PM

Racerlinn wrote:
I have a set of Avon Type "Arrrhhhs" you can have, only slighty used..... [:O]

Are those the same Avons you had on at the Worker's Invite? You know.....when I spun around for you to pick up our tickets from the Will Call booth! [H]

dbrier
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30 Jan 2008 01:52 PM
brgmcs wrote:
Andy Ucter wrote:

(E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

...plus get the tires to the events for me, I'll be happy to change them each time and stay in SM.[:D]

I know a wagon that has extra cargo space in it [Y]

Bobzilla
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30 Jan 2008 02:03 PM

Scott, if I had the room to store them, I'd haul your R-comps to the events. Got plenty o room in Porky.

The Nebulizer
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30 Jan 2008 02:44 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:

I would think/hope.. that the powers that be in INDY region would frown on a national or highly competitive driver... going to SMS.. just to beat-up on the kids there...

(E.g. scott dales, should stay out of SMS, and give the n000bs a shot.. at a class designed for un-prepped cars)

I disagree with this statement. SMS is not meant to be a class for noobies (whether that ends up being the case or not) - and I don't think those running it would want it to be treated like a junior level class. It is just a class that better represents many of the cars in Indy. Its jnot meant to be an easy ticket for beginners. Scott Dales should definitely run SMS if that is what his car is best set up for. Would you have Scott race in a higher class than necessary so he can let the 'kids' race in SMS? That doesn't make any sense to me.

BTW Scott, I don't know about hp, but I bet you had me beat in 0-60mph. I was running about 7.2sec in the SC'd 325Ci (about 215hp at crank w/ 4.5psi, 3350lbs, and a slushy automatic) - now the M3 is a whole other beast - 4.6sec. [H]

As for hauling your tires, can't you fit a couple of those little guys in your glove box?[:P]

turbohappy
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30 Jan 2008 05:33 PM

Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

mtownneon
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31 Jan 2008 05:28 AM
turbohappy wrote:

Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

That would be a correct statement............................

Andy Ucter
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31 Jan 2008 01:31 PM
mtownneon wrote:
turbohappy wrote:

Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

That would be a correct statement............................

actually, no it's not..

you are BOTH missing the point...

as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into.. the guys who show up with a HUGE tach0meter.. and a carbon fiber hood.. ricers.. whatever..

they can go to SMS.. instead of a full on MOD class.. and get screwed.. like the SCCA has been doign to people with light mods since the beginning..

the point of the class is to offer a bit of a catch all.. where one little mod.. won't kill you on a class..

so Brian, you don't count.. you are in a very well prepped car for the class you've chosen.. and you can't tell me.. that if it was your first season of autoX... you'd be topping raw times in your car.. vs what the local SM guys are.. from what I've heard, results I've seen, you're a great driver..

more-over.. how about you get a car identical from the factory as yours.. put 17" wheels and cat-less exhaust on it.... no shocks.. no sway bars.. and see if you are as competitive in STS.. sure you'll still be good.. but the car I explain.. is more an SMS car.. basic mods that ricers do to their cars..

the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them modivated.. etc..

doesn't matter to me.. if you guys have the wrong idea.. its just great that Indy region has done this!!! and you'll see withen a couple events.. who has the correct perspective.

as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

The Nebulizer
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31 Jan 2008 02:06 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:

you are BOTH missing the point...

as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into..

the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them modivated.. etc..

as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

I still disagree with you. Here is the SMS proposal (by Dale Brier):

"Street Modified Street Tire class proposal.

The Street Modified (SM) class has exploded in recent years to become the largest class in the Indy Region. Most events have 15+ cars in the class. The Indy Region SM class does not have any nationally competitive cars running, they are mostly cars that have a modification or two that move them up to a “catch-all” class like SM. These are cars that are modified to driver taste and street driving, not as dedicated autocross cars. Most are bumped up from ST classes by simple modifications like boost controllers, carbon fiber parts, or larger brakes. Because the class allows for R-compound racing tires, those with the largest budget for tires are winning the class. Out of the top five SM cars in the 2007 season, four ran primarily on race tires. It is very discouraging for new drives to finish very low in a large class and see all the winners on slick, expensive racing tires.

I am proposing a Street Modified Street Tire (SMS) class as a regional class for the Indy Region. This class has been very popular in the Fort Wayne Region. The class would not replace or interfere with the regular SM class. All SM rules would apply except:

  • Tires must have a tread-wear rating of 140 or greater (street tires) and
  • The class would use a PAX modifier of .840.

This PAX has been successful in Fort Wayne for consistency reasons, should be used here as well. It is midway between the STU and SM class PAXs.

At this time, it is not recommended to include SM2 cars into this class."

I see nothing about novices or newbies - only underprepared cars with the main focus on underprepared in tires (which we all know makes a big difference - especially with higher powered cars). Again, it may end up being made up of mostly novices - but there is nothing to suggest that is the intent of the class.

As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded. And, since I always seem to need to bring this up, yes, I would get spanked in STU as there are some very good drivers in this class (of which I am not) - but it would mean I could fit in a class with street tires and I would gladly race there. I don't know why any discussion of car classes always seems to boil down to claims of it all being driver skill. We all know the importance of driver skill.

Oh, and I would argue that Novice and X Class are not the only skill based classes we have... but I don't want to be seen as sexist (when in actuallity the current system is by definition sexist).

Eclipse2Lancer
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31 Jan 2008 02:27 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:
mtownneon wrote:
turbohappy wrote:

Yes, X class and Novice class are the ONLY classes that have any sort of n00b aspect to them. All the other classes are open to anyone.

It's mostly driver skill really, a faster car only does so much for you until you have the skill for it. I ran faster times than all of SM in my 100hp STS car (street tires) at a lot of events this year.

That would be a correct statement............................

actually, no it's not..

you are BOTH missing the point...

as ron said.. this class was for the newb who was unsure of what class he/she would fall into.. the guys who show up with a HUGE tach0meter.. and a carbon fiber hood.. ricers.. whatever..

they can go to SMS.. instead of a full on MOD class.. and get screwed.. like the SCCA has been doign to people with light mods since the beginning..

the point of the class is to offer a bit of a catch all.. where one little mod.. won't kill you on a class..

So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
Brian is actually right:
Indy implemented SMS to cater to those who have light mods that might put them into the SM class, but will not restrict the class to a "newbie" class. It is essentially another open class that is Regional only. Intended for people who prep their car to their liking, not the SCCA rulebook.

So I think we are saying the same thing, but speaking different languages. But no, it's not a class for newbies.

Andy Ucter wrote:
so Brian, you don't count.. you are in a very well prepped car for the class you've chosen.. and you can't tell me.. that if it was your first season of autoX... you'd be topping raw times in your car.. vs what the local SM guys are.. from what I've heard, results I've seen, you're a great driver..

How does Brian not count? lol....shouldn't all those high HP cars outperform his little Civic, at least According to your logic (if I read it correctly)? Driver doesn't matter much....then you call him a great driver. I don't get it.
As it stood in 2007, there were in fact good drivers in SM, in underprepped cars (per SCCA rules). Thus the proposal for SMS from Dale Brier.

Andy Ucter wrote:
more-over.. how about you get a car identical from the factory as yours.. put 17" wheels and cat-less exhaust on it.... no shocks.. no sway bars.. and see if you are as competitive in STS.. sure you'll still be good.. but the car I explain.. is more an SMS car.. basic mods that ricers do to their cars..

Again, SMS for us is intended for people who prep their car to their liking, not the SCCA rulebook, and happen to not fit in any other class (SP, ST, etc.)

Andy Ucter wrote:
the idear is to get them into the sport.. keep them motivated.. etc..

I would agree with this completely.

Andy Ucter wrote:
doesn't matter to me.. if you guys have the wrong idea.. its just great that Indy region has done this!!! and you'll see withen a couple events.. who has the correct perspective.

as for mr M3.. come to STU.. i dare you!!!

Thanks? Kind of a back-handed compliment if you ask me though.....

Regardless, see you at an event in 2008! [:D]

Andy Ucter
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31 Jan 2008 02:49 PM

The Nebulizer wrote:
[ Because the class allows for R-compound racing tires, those with the largest budget for tires are winning the class. Out of the top five SM cars in the 2007 season, four ran primarily on race tires. It is very discouraging for new drives to finish very low in a large class and see all the winners on slick, expensive racing tires.

read bold

how much more effing obvious can it be here folks??? it is even in Dale's eloquently written proposal.

The Nebulizer wrote:
As to coming to STU, I would love to, but e46 M3 is excluded. And, since I always seem to need to bring this up, yes, I would get spanked in STU as there are some very good drivers in this class (of which I am not) - but it would mean I could fit in a class with street tires and I would gladly race there. I don't know why any discussion of car classes always seems to boil down to claims of it all being driver skill. We all know the importance of driver skill.

are you sure you are excluded?? I thought the E46 was only excluded from STX.... therefore went to STU.. anyway.. come on in.. the water's warm.. i won't complain...

Andy Ucter
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31 Jan 2008 02:56 PM

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
Brian is actually right:..

NO.. but I am saying.. brian is in a PREPPED car.. and even as a great driver..

he would not do AS well if it only had big 17" wheels.. falken 452's a sub woofer, strut tower-braces.. and custom cat-less exhaust.

all things being typical of OFF THE STREET n00bs who are car enthusiests.. and have begun (ignorantly) modding their old civic.

that's why SMS exists.. its in the proposal.. read it.

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

So I think we are saying the same thing, but speaking different languages. But no, it's not a class for newbies.

..

we are close.. but yeah.. it it is a fine catch all for noobs.. in ignorantly prepped cars.. YET!!! and here is the beauty in it... it also caters to middle ground drivers.. who still mod their car to their tastes.. (e.g STi swapped RS's)

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
Thanks? Kind of a back-handed compliment if you ask me though.....

not so much.. as i am not attacking anyone.. I just don't like stock classes.. and want more competition in my own..

Eclipse2Lancer
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31 Jan 2008 03:10 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:

So you are saying that the car matters more than the driver? I would disagree with you there.
Brian is actually right:..

NO.. but I am saying.. brian is in a PREPPED car.. and even as a great driver..

he would not do AS well if it only had big 17" wheels.. falken 452's a sub woofer, strut tower-braces.. and custom cat-less exhaust.

all things being typical of OFF THE STREET n00bs who are car enthusiests.. and have begun (ignorantly) modding their old civic.

that's why SMS exists.. its in the proposal.. read it.

um....I did read it. I am after all one of the Region's Solo co-chairs for '08. [;)]

I do agree that while the class will catch those who have begun "ignorantly modding" their cars, who for the most part are new to the sport.....the proposal does have a brief statement about new competitors, but we are NOT going to exclude anyone from running in it based on experience as you suggested earlier.

I wouldn't go as far to call someone like Dale a ricer.....although he could carry several bags of it in his wagon. lol......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

Bobzilla
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31 Jan 2008 03:26 PM

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

In all honesty most of us don't. I mean seriously, who races a Hyundai and prepares it for STS against 600lb lighter Civics? ACtually I better watch that statement. . . . someone might do it and be successful!

Most of us have modified our daily drivers to what suits our needs/desires. If that is "ignorantly modifying them" then so be it. Almost every single one of us is in this for the fun, the comraderie and the chance to beat our DD's for giggles. I've been involved in a lot of crazy things and the people in this hobby are the most engaging, fun to be around and overall helpful people I've ever met. Who else walks the course with their competitor, helping them find the right lines and how to be a little quicker?

Eclipse2Lancer
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31 Jan 2008 03:32 PM
Bobzilla wrote:

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
......but he doesn't mod his car by the rulebook either. [H]

In all honesty most of us don't. I mean seriously, who races a Hyundai and prepares it for STS against 600lb lighter Civics? ACtually I better watch that statement. . . . someone might do it and be successful!

Most of us have modified our daily drivers to what suits our needs/desires. If that is "ignorantly modifying them" then so be it. Almost every single one of us is in this for the fun, the comraderie and the chance to beat our DD's for giggles. I've been involved in a lot of crazy things and the people in this hobby are the most engaging, fun to be around and overall helpful people I've ever met. Who else walks the course with their competitor, helping them find the right lines and how to be a little quicker?

dang.....I helped you on a course walk, didn't I? [:$]

turbohappy
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31 Jan 2008 03:32 PM
At the end of the day, SMS is primarily for our group of drivers who modify their daily drivers without any consideration of the rulebook. They don't have to be n00bs, although many of our novices who don't have stock cars are likely to fit well in this class. Ft. Wayne region's successful SMS class has several people in it who are not new to the sport.
Bobzilla
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31 Jan 2008 03:37 PM

Eclipse2Lancer wrote:
dang.....I helped you on a course walk, didn't I? [:$]

Multiple times IIRC. Hopefully you won't be too busy this year to not continue. . . and bring along your tire warmer while you're at it. I hear Brian knows a thing or two about cones. . .. [:P]

Oh, and since this was too serious of a thread, this is superfluous ricey mods. . . thanks to some "friends" on the Elantra forums.

SCCAForums Image

Hoppe you got a laugh at this one.

brgmcs
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01 Feb 2008 12:15 PM
The Nebulizer wrote:
BTW Scott, I don't know about hp, but I bet you had me beat in 0-60mph. I was running about 7.2sec in the SC'd 325Ci (about 215hp at crank w/ 4.5psi, 3350lbs, and a slushy automatic) - now the M3 is a whole other beast - 4.6sec. [H]

Yeah, I'm a couple tenths faster to 60mph than your 325 (high 6's). But on a hot day and with a delay starting a run, I may not be any quicker. The MINI engine is really suspceptable to heat, what with the tiny engine bay and lots of heat sources such as the inefficient Roots blower, plus a charger cooler mounted up top to catch it all. Running around in 15degF weather is a whole 'nother story. Too bad our season runs in the summer. [:'(]

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