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Last Post 03 Apr 2008 10:57 PM by  dbrier
Columbus street tire vs. R-compound equalizer
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balefire
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17 Mar 2008 04:39 PM

    Did anyone read Isley's article in Sports Car this month? 1.7 sec difference between Kumho V710s and Bridgestone RE-01Rs on his BS prepared RX8 on a 40 sec course. Maybe we should consider a 2 sec difference instead of 1 at Columbus? How was 1 sec determined, arbitrarily?...

    I know this makes it harder for people on R-compounds like myself, but just wanting to be fair. Besides, most people on street tire aren't prepped to the limit of the rules anyway...

    Maybe Indy region could adapt it?

    SopFu
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    17 Mar 2008 05:38 PM

    Eh, I am indifferent on the handicap. There are too many factors that play into the difference: HP, weight, surface, etc, to be able to accurately define a handicap. I'd be willing to bet running a "track" alignment removes a good 1/2 second to most cars on a 60 second course - maybe more if your car likes to roll - but no one complains about that.


    Don't bring a knife to a gun fight and expect to not be killed. I have street tires in a class that requires race tires to be competitive, too.

    brgmcs
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    17 Mar 2008 07:40 PM

    The CSCC tire handicap is not intended to equalize street tires and R compounds. The idea is to make it slightly less intimidating for newbies to show up when more experienced driver's are in the same class with fancy tires. The handicap very rarely impacts the outcome of the class winner. Make no mistake, if you show up to your first autocross and there is someone experienced in your class you are going to get smoked even if the tire handicap was 2 seconds.

    duck_hunter_117
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    17 Mar 2008 09:38 PM

    Something to consider is that they comparison in Sports Car was comparing new tires. Since the drop-off in r-compounds is much higher than street tires I would bet that at the end of the season the street tires will be less than 1 sec. behind the r-compounds. Plus there are too many different types of tires to draw a general comparison between all r-compounds and street tires. There is no perfect equalizer, but I like the way the Columbus system works.

    DRAG
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    19 Mar 2008 01:37 PM
    I have raced one time at Columbus and I LOVED the course. I won SM due to the handicap and I personally felt like I got beat. I think the system works as is, but 2 seconds is a pretty large handicap with all variables considered.
    The Nebulizer
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    19 Mar 2008 03:56 PM
    brgmcs wrote:

    The CSCC tire handicap is not intended to equalize street tires and R compounds. The idea is to make it slightly less intimidating for newbies to show up when more experienced driver's are in the same class with fancy tires. The handicap very rarely impacts the outcome of the class winner. Make no mistake, if you show up to your first autocross and there is someone experienced in your class you are going to get smoked even if the tire handicap was 2 seconds.

    I actually understood this rule was designed to encourage street tire usage as it was felt Walesboro was pretty harsh on R comps.

    I like the 1 second rule all right. It is a step toward balancing out the tire discrepency - but certainly a bit arbitrary. I do agree that if it is going to be arbitrary, it should be on the conservative side like it currently is so no one feels the Street Tire guys are getting too much of a bonus.

    I would like to see Indy tackle this tire issue in a similar manner to the apparent majority of regions out there. Create something like Street Tire groups of classes that normally use R comps and PAX for results. I think sticking strictly to the tire rules and classification of nationals is a mistake at the less-than-ideally-setup-vehicles, local level - and hope there is more motivation to take on this issue in the future. I am ready to crunch the numbers for when this issue comes up again... I think we are tracking tire compound this season, aren't we?

    SopFu
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    19 Mar 2008 05:12 PM
    The Nebulizer wrote:

    Create something like Street Tire groups of classes that normally use R comps and PAX for results.

    For the record: I am all for this!!! Even though this will be the last year for me on street tires (just like I've been saying for 3 years), I think doing this will bring in and retain more newbies than any other promotional work.

    brgmcs
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    19 Mar 2008 10:00 PM
    The Nebulizer wrote:

    I actually understood this rule was designed to encourage street tire usage as it was felt Walesboro was pretty harsh on R comps.

    Actually, wrong on both counts though it is a popular rumor.

    dbrier
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    20 Mar 2008 07:45 AM
    The Nebulizer wrote:
    I think we are tracking tire compound this season, aren't we?
    Yes. It should give you lots of statistical data to play with at the end of the season. The tire info will be recorded per event, not just with car info in the computer, so it can even account for Scott who will be moving back and forth between tires.
    gripfreak89
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    03 Apr 2008 12:26 PM
    So does accounting for tires in Indy events mean that an equalizing system will be used, or does it just mean that it will be recorded for reference?
    The Nebulizer
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    03 Apr 2008 01:40 PM

    gripfreak89 wrote:
    So does accounting for tires in Indy events mean that an equalizing system will be used, or does it just mean that it will be recorded for reference?

    Just recording for reference right now. I will undoubtedly play around with the data and present it in some form for others to consider - perhaps with a proposal of some sort. An equalizer value might be a tough fight, but perhaps some kind of separation of classes by tire system maybe.

    A few months ago I proposed making a Street Tire PAX listing - essentially just pulling out all racers in R-comp class racers using street tires into another list - it was tabled, and we went with at least recording data this year (I might create an unoffical list on my own - and post it up for people to check out). Many regions have created a large street tire group that essentially lets everyone compete against each other across all R-comp classes using PAX - I this idea 1) because is eliminates the tire factor 2) because it creates a large group - standard classes are just too small for good competition. I am probably not going to be running in any R-comp classes for a while, so I have a little less motivation on this issue now. But, I will still work on it as I think it is an important issue to tackle.

    I'll probably also play around with the data in other ways this year. I'd like to come up with a good way to track racers performance using an index (based on PAX). Something that would say have Mr. Kent with an index of about 100 (max) and the 'less-fast' beginners down at 1 (lowest). The idea would be to create a way to compete with similar PAX racers in other classes even if htey use a different car every week. Like let's say I have an index of 25 and 'John Q. Loser' has an index of 26, I can try to compete with him over the season eventhough we are in different classes and I am driving 4 different cars in 3 different classes. Additionally, unlike other measures we currently have this would not be affected by absences. It would be a good measure of driver skill (and car preparedness) and eliminate class size and attendance as major factors. I'll post this too if it looks like it is going to work and is interesting.

    dbrier
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    03 Apr 2008 10:57 PM

    gripfreak89 wrote:
    So does accounting for tires in Indy events mean that an equalizing system will be used, or does it just mean that it will be recorded for reference?
    Just recorded for referece.

    At one of the meetings, the steering comittee wondered how many folks were running R compound tires. We all shrugged our shoulders and said "I don't know" Next year we will know, but we don't have any plans for 2009 yet.

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