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Last Post 08 May 2008 05:55 PM by  DRAG
STU Tech @ Nationals
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The Nebulizer
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30 Apr 2008 01:57 PM
DRAG wrote:

I guarantee people are doing this, so I wonder why they just don't allow it....since they can't control it.

It's allowed in SM, but if they let this happen in STU it would throw off the whole classing. What would the e36 M3s, RX-8s, or other NA cars do? They can't match that kind of a performance change with any tweaks to the ECU. The changes possible with ECU mod are far greater for the EVO and STi than they are for other cars in the class. There is really no other option beyond the near-honor system except to go to the extreme and say since enough people are cheating, the STi and EVO are no longer legal in STU and must race in SM - and by that same logic they would be excluded from AS as well. As I understand it, the STi and EVO are not going to be too competitive in SM (without going on a major diet), so it would nearly make these cars obsolete for autocross.

Actually, there is another option which I think might actually be a good idea. Create an STA? (AWD) class. Put the STi and EVO in a class by themselves and let them boost at will. I don't know if this would be followed by a collapse of other classes or not (maybe there would not be enough STU cars left to support a separate class?). But, it might solve some of the issues with these cars being enough different from other cars to balance things out better. I have read that there are many issues with AWD cars vs. 2WD depending on surface as well - trying to class them together is quite a challenge, so maybe the best option is class them separately.

The Nebulizer
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30 Apr 2008 02:19 PM
turbohappy wrote:

I couldn't enjoy winning by cheating. But there are a lot of people that could, I think.

Coming from the online racing world, I can assure you there are many people that would care far more about winning than how they got there. I would hope for something that takes as much dedication as Solo to get to the national levels would limit this, but then I also believe a lot of people would get frustrated and take the view that other people are doing it and getting away with it, so they will feel justified in doing it too. I would much rather be mediocre than get anything I didn't deserve. (I still consider my 1 Indy trophy to be only a psuedo-trophy as Scott Dales and Kevin Miller weren't at that event. I still am proud, but will be more proud when I get one with full competition...)

Bobzilla
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30 Apr 2008 02:23 PM
The whole "winning at all costs" really bothers me. I couldn't do it. . . .
DRAG
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30 Apr 2008 02:31 PM

Contrary to what most STI competitors think, the EVO doesn't have some unlimited boost capability. It is nearly maxed out in stock form just like the STI. My car stock sees a spike to 24psi and then it falls to 14-15. My old car saw 21 stock, then with an exhaust it would see 23. You can make these cars hold 19psi to redline with a retune and no boost controller, so people are doing it. It is all in your interpretation of the rules I suppose. Altering the boost level via more efficient induction and exhaust components IS legal. If they ever did say no STI and EVO in STU, they might as well just eliminate the class. Those cars make up most of the entries.

As for the EVO and STI not being competitive in SM...heh...an EVO covered 1st place in Topeka last year by 8 tenths of a second. The new STI and EVO can handle a much larger wheel and tire.

brgmcs
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30 Apr 2008 03:28 PM

STi and EVO can absolutely be competitive in SM nationally. Given the allowed mods in that class, so can a WRX or Imprezza or Lancer. You can take or replicate most of the good stuff from the more expensive versions.

SM allows you to legally make tons of power. The fuse point for the class is applying it to the pavement, as tires are limited to DOT legal. AWD helps bigtime in that situation.

Andy Ucter
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30 Apr 2008 03:33 PM

DRAG wrote:
As for the EVO and STI not being competitive in SM...heh...an EVO covered 1st place in Topeka last year by 8 tenths of a second.

and who was driving said evo??? that has the most to do with this result..

turbohappy
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30 Apr 2008 03:40 PM
Andy Ucter wrote:

and who was driving said evo??? that has the most to do with this result..

Still counts even with an alien behind the wheel [:)]

The Nebulizer
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30 Apr 2008 05:57 PM
brgmcs wrote:

STi and EVO can absolutely be competitive in SM nationally.

I was thinking they have enough power and traction, but the weight would be the limiting factor at being competitive in SM nationally. But, a check of the results show the Evos defintely do well in SM - my mistake. Why aren't there more small cars with giant engine/turbo transplants in SM? Too new of a class or does it just not work?

turbohappy
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30 Apr 2008 06:35 PM
The Nebulizer wrote:

I was thinking they have enough power and traction, but the weight would be the limiting factor at being competitive in SM nationally. But, a check of the results show the Evos defintely do well in SM - my mistake. Why aren't there more small cars with giant engine/turbo transplants in SM? Too new of a class or does it just not work?

One problem with small cars is that they have trouble fitting tires big enough to put down big power. The Evo can fit huge tires on and is AWD.

DRAG
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01 May 2008 11:37 AM

The SM EVOs and STIs might not be as heavy as you think. I will speak only for the EVOs because I know what they are doing....they are 2800-3100 lbs with driver, 285 tires and the fast guys are running small turbos and 430whp or so. Some guys are 550+hp but that power is not needed nor ideal for autox. Not responsive enough with a turbo sized to make that power. Just to give you an idea how brutal that acceleration really is...that is good for a high 10 second second 1/4 mile in that car. With 400hp I ran 11s @ 120mph weighing 3500lbs. Ask Nick what 1st gear felt like in that car LOL!! I'm just glad they were finally able to beat those dang BMWs!!

My car now is 250hp and 3800lbs with me...OUCH!

The Nebulizer
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01 May 2008 12:23 PM
DRAG wrote:

I'm just glad they were finally able to beat those dang BMWs!!

My car now is 250hp and 3800lbs with me...OUCH!

Yeah, but you could easily drop 100lbs from that...

...well, if you work out enough [:P] (That BMW comment pushed me over the edge. [:@] Didn't Tunnel switch cars or something last year (former M3 SM winner for like 5 years)?)

As to wider wheels, couldn't the serious guys run super wide tires on little cars by just smashing up the fenders? (Or, are you required to have unmolested fenders in SM? I know you can't cut them in SM, but if the tire bangs into them are you required to fix them? What about going low-rider style and just sticking the wheels outside of the wheel well.... [:P] )

turbohappy
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01 May 2008 12:49 PM
I've seen a couple Civics running 275/15s or 285/18s, but the results were definitely mixed.
rboone
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01 May 2008 01:21 PM

Whoa Luke,

Just

rboone
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01 May 2008 01:21 PM

Whoa Luke,

Just

wait
rboone
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01 May 2008 01:21 PM

Whoa Luke,

Just wait until I lose 50 lbs and learn how to drive. I'll be almost within 10 seconds of you.

Randy

rboone
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01 May 2008 01:25 PM
Sorry about the partial duplicate messages. I appear to have some computer issues.
DRAG
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06 May 2008 12:16 PM
Randy you'll get the hang of it with more seat time. That car of yours will do things you just haven't found yet. I have driven the Z4 at an event and it is unique, but very fast when pushed to the limit. You will find that limit and you will be fast. I think you could benefit from some auto x oriented tires for sure.
GChambers
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07 May 2008 10:55 PM

I think you guys are completely underestimating the drivers role and way overestimating the cars role in Solo. You(not anyone specifically, just in general) could cheat. And, IMO, you could easily get away with it. The mid-pack is where most of the cheaters are. They don't get caught so much because nobody is really paying attention to them.

At the pointy end of the pack, there is very little cheating that I have seen or heard of. The reason? Several things. If you are that fast, you are usually not willing to risk getting caught cheating to find that extra edge. You are also not comfortable with the fact that you just beat your next competitor by less than .05 seconds for that final trophy spot by cheating. (I did just this. Won the last trophy spot by a tiny fraction of a second at nationals two years ago.) Also, you are running with guys that you have run against all season or, possibly, for many years. If someone new pops up into the top trophy spots, he is definitely going to be under the microscope. The competitors that he is running against are going to know his car just as well, if not better than he does and will know EXACTLY what to look for.

Besides, those guys(and cars) that do win National Championships are truly far better than what most of us understand. I got a ride at a test-n-tune at Grissom in Andy Liebers BSP Evo two seasons back shortly(several weeks, IIRC) before he won a National Championship in that car. (BTW, they built another even faster Evo the next season and his co-driver, John Tak, won a National Championship in that car the next year.) I can not describe the sheer violence of that ride. The performance level of a well sorted 400+ whp Evo on R-Comp tires with top of the line Ohlins shocks and the best of everything else was completely overwealming to me. This was immediately apparent. What took a while for me to realize was how good of a driver Andy was to even be able to get a car with that much potential to the limits of it's performance. What I am trying to say is that regardless of how fast that car is, you(again, in general) have to be able to drive the car to that level. I'm not that good. I certainly don't know many who are.

The Nebulizer
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08 May 2008 10:01 AM

GChambers wrote:
You are also not comfortable with the fact that you just beat your next competitor by less than .05 seconds for that final trophy spot by cheating. (I did just this. Won the last trophy spot by a tiny fraction of a second at nationals two years ago.)

Uh, Geoff, I think you just confessed to cheating to get your national trophy... I knew you weren't really that good!!!

[:P]

Perhaps an edit is necessary as I am sure you just meant you won by that small of a margin... and not the cheating part...[8-|]

Eclipse2Lancer
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08 May 2008 10:09 AM
The Nebulizer wrote:

GChambers wrote:
You are also not comfortable with the fact that you just beat your next competitor by less than .05 seconds for that final trophy spot by cheating. (I did just this. Won the last trophy spot by a tiny fraction of a second at nationals two years ago.)

Uh, Geoff, I think you just confessed to cheating to get your national trophy... I knew you weren't really that good!!!

[:P]

Perhaps an edit is necessary as I am sure you just meant you won by that small of a margin... and not the cheating part...[8-|]

Pretty sure Geoff just meant the slim margin part. [;)] He's probably one of the most honest competitors I have run into.

Example: He was so sure he hit a cone on his clean fast run at the first points event, he has asked me about 5 times (both in the bus during the event and after the event) if I was sure he didn't get a cone. I had to show him the audit sheet to shut him up. lol [:D]

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