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Last Post 15 Aug 2008 08:20 AM by  47CP
Give me a list of trucks for this rig.
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thefirebuilds
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22 Jul 2008 12:08 PM
    Say I want a gooseneck, 40-50 ft (unsure of my ultimate size yet, will probably depend on a decent price), to pull two spec miatas (2100 lbs x 2) + spares, figure another 1500lbs. What kind of trucks should I be looking at?
    kb_solo2
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    22 Jul 2008 12:58 PM

    I pull a 50' gooseneck two car hauler with a Dodge dually 1 ton. You will need airbags to carry the pin weight on anything but a medium duty commercial rig.

    If I were shopping now, I would look seriously at the new Ford Superduty.

    thefirebuilds
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    22 Jul 2008 01:45 PM

    Thanks.


    I cant afford new, im looking for 99-04 at the moment.

    when you say airbags you mean on the rear axles? what kind of tongue weight is your trailer giving you?

    kb_solo2
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    22 Jul 2008 02:21 PM
    About 5k. yes, airbags on the rear axle.
    Primetime Glick
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    23 Jul 2008 01:08 PM

    thefirebuilds wrote:
    Say I want a gooseneck, 40-50 ft (unsure of my ultimate size yet, will probably depend on a decent price), to pull two spec miatas (2100 lbs x 2) + spares, figure another 1500lbs. What kind of trucks should I be looking at?

    4,200 lbs of car + 1,500 lbs of spares + 8,900 lbs of trailer (e.g., the curb weight on a 51' Pace GN) = 14,600 lbs. It's simple: nothing less than a 1-ton dually. For reference, 14,100 - 18,700 lbs of are the rated 5w TW limits for new F350 duallies.

    Depending on how much you intend to drive it, you may want to do some gas bill calcs before you pony up for, say, the 08 F350's $6,545 diesel option... At around 20% more for diesel over 87 octane regular.... even if you get 40% better MPG, diesel v. V10, it may take quite a long time for that net 20% savings to break even the higher initial purchase price of the diesel engine.

    Let's say you tow 1,000 miles a month, at 12 mpg, at $4.80/gal of diesel, make your gas bill $400/mo. Since the diesel only saves you a net 20% on the gas, you're only saving $80/mo (or 8 cents a mile). $6545/ $80/mo / 12/mo/year = 7 years to make up the cost of the diesel option. Or, at 12,000 miles/year x 7 years = 84,000 miles. Or, 168 race weekends (at 250 miles away each).

    But of course, I'm not factoring in the current resale value strength of diesels over gassers - which in itself may change as diesel fuel prices continues to climb and stay way over gasoline, and as people realize they don't get that great of mpg, in all vehicles all the time. Playing devil's advocate here, I guess I wouldn't bet that you'll get a ton more money back for a diesel over a gasser 10 years into the future...

    Just some food for thought. Maybe you can make some biodiesel in your backyard to split the difference [;)]

    Impala SS AutoXer
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    23 Jul 2008 01:22 PM

    1 ton dually for sure, diesel for sure. Yeah diesel costs more up front, but you do save on fuel while using it and the trucks usually resale MUCH better than an equivalent gasser....meaning that you get most (and in some cases, ALL) of the up-front premium back when you go to resell the truck. It also tows far better than a gasser, especially heavy.

    How much you're willing to gamble on the 6.0/6.4 Powerstrokes (hint : their record is less than stellar for reliability) will tell if the new F450 is even on your radar. Personally I'd stick with a Duramax/Allison (the grade braking is a miracle worker), the Dodge with a stick (until last few years, their reliability on the auto trans was so-so...the stick is stronger) or an earlier 7.3L Powerstroke (definitely down on power, but pretty bulletproof).

    Opps, just saw you are looking 99-04. So no F450. And the earlier 6.0 Powerstrokes are the most troubleprone (hell, I'll go so far as "piece of crap"). So I'd knock anything with a 6.0L Powerstroke off the list.

    FWIW, I bought a 2006 2500HD GMC with the Duramax/Allison. Mileage has been stellar (15 MPG towing 6500 lbs at 75 MPH, 17 MPG towing 4500lbs at 75 MPH, almost 19 MPG towing 4500lbs at 62 MPH!), there is power to spare (i.e. you basically never really downshift, let alone slow down, up freeway grades), and the grade braking really saves the brakes (can descend a 5% grade at freeway speeds WITHOUT touching the brakes with the loads I am towing...freaks you out the first few times you watch the Allison work it's magic!).

    marka
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    23 Jul 2008 02:02 PM

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:

    But of course, I'm not factoring in the current resale value strength of diesels over gassers - which in itself may change as diesel fuel prices continues to climb and stay way over gasoline, and as people realize they don't get that great of mpg, in all vehicles all the time. Playing devil's advocate here, I guess I wouldn't bet that you'll get a ton more money back for a diesel over a gasser 10 years into the future...

    Just some food for thought. Maybe you can make some biodiesel in your backyard to split the difference [;)]

    I'd guess you'd be wrong. Used diesels have commanded a much better price than used gassers since at least 2004 (when I started paying attention), and have typically seemed to sell faster to boot. Granted, the Ford v10 is a good gas motor (as is the Chevy 8.1 liter or whatever it is), but for what he's doing I think you'd need to be a bit daft to go with anything non-diesel powered.

    I don't know much about them, but I'd want to look at bigger trucks than regular 1 ton duallys. I think Ford's making an F550 now, aren't they?

    Mark

    solonut52
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    23 Jul 2008 03:55 PM
    Davard
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    23 Jul 2008 03:56 PM

    Or, how about a used medium duty truck, or even a used semi.  I've seen quite a few road racers that tow their trailers with old semis. Register it as an RV (if it's got a sleeper), and insurance and registration are cheaper, as is licensing.

     For how the relative (new) trucks compare. http://www.pickuptrucks.com/html/20...tout1.html

    Primetime Glick
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    24 Jul 2008 09:30 AM
    marka wrote:

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:

    But of course, I'm not factoring in the current resale value strength of diesels over gassers - which in itself may change as diesel fuel prices continues to climb and stay way over gasoline, and as people realize they don't get that great of mpg, in all vehicles all the time. Playing devil's advocate here, I guess I wouldn't bet that you'll get a ton more money back for a diesel over a gasser 10 years into the future...

    Just some food for thought. Maybe you can make some biodiesel in your backyard to split the difference [;)]

    I'd guess you'd be wrong. Used diesels have commanded a much better price than used gassers since at least 2004 (when I started paying attention), and have typically seemed to sell faster to boot. Granted, the Ford v10 is a good gas motor (as is the Chevy 8.1 liter or whatever it is), but for what he's doing I think you'd need to be a bit daft to go with anything non-diesel powered.

    I don't know much about them, but I'd want to look at bigger trucks than regular 1 ton duallys. I think Ford's making an F550 now, aren't they?

    Mark

    Umm, if you carefully re-read, I said IN THE FUTURE the strength of diesel resale value may decrease. If the world's demand for fuel oil (to which diesel fuel is more closely tied) continues to explode, the price gap between diesel and gasoline may continue to grow. And thus demand may drop for 10 mpg, $60,000, FX4-King Ranch-Crew Cab-PSD F350s, which at least around here, are mostly bought by urban yuppies for 1-passenger, trailerless status symbol duty. After tallying up their fuel and vehicle purchase bills, businesses with small fleets of lighter-duty trucks (e.g., contractors) may drop some of their unneeded diesels too, looking to cut corners in this tough economy.

    Ford rates its 2008 F350 DRWs w/ V10s as being able to pull anywheres from 14,000 to 16,500 lbs, depending on configuration. How is that "daft"??

    In general, I just think there are a lot of old wives' tales and gut feelings supporting the superiority of and neccessity for diesel trucks.

    Thinkkker03
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    24 Jul 2008 09:52 AM

    The F450 and 550 have been made for years! Its just now coming out of the commercial sect to be a option for the masses who do not realize. Biggest issue is you could not get one with less than a 5.18 rear gear. Top speed is right at 70, but it can tow a town.

    If you want comfort, the old cross country semi's are, or can be nice. Just have to make sure you get it inspected prior to buying of course. Biggest pain its 32 quarts of oil/change. If you lose a air bag its a couple hundred bucks for it, but do it yourself. They can be changed out in 30 minutes and save you a TON in labor.

    What is your estimated buyin cost? I may have missed it.

    marka
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    24 Jul 2008 11:41 AM

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:
    In general, I just think there are a lot of old wives' tales and gut feelings supporting the superiority of and neccessity for diesel trucks.

    I've owned both (Dodge v10 & Cummins), and driven others (Chevy big block, and Ford v10). I've done the numbers on fuel mileage, and I've done the research on how well the motors hold up & how well they pull heavy loads.

    You can take it as an old wives tale or experience, I don't really give a crap.

    To the original poster, my comment stands. You'd be a bit daft to want a gasser to pull that rig. I'd want a medium duty truck.

    Mark

    Primetime Glick
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    25 Jul 2008 09:11 AM
    marka wrote:

    I don't really give a crap.

    Cursing is always a good counterpoint versus simple math and factory ratings. If you had the numbers, put up 'em up! I just personally know lots of people in and around my business that won't get anything but a diesel, but can't explain why, other than "it's better" and "it'll last for 400,000 miles". Perhaps you've done your research, but I rarely run into people who do....

    marka wrote:
    I'd want a medium duty truck.

    Maybe not a bad idea. This rig comes with a trailer with living quarters, and is less than a new diesel dually alone! Guess you don't even need a CDL because it's under 26k?

    2002 FREIGHTLINER FL-60 Conventional W/Sleep $55,200.00

    VEHICLE DETAILS

    New/Used: U
    Year: 2002
    Make: FREIGHTLINER
    Model: FL-60
    Location: Sarasota, FL
    Mileage: 230,400
    Type: CLASS 6 (GVW 19501 - 26000)
    Category: Conventional W/Sleep
    Suspension: Air

    VEHICLE FEATURES

    Air Conditioning, Cruise Control, AM/FM Radio, Air Seat, Cassette, 5th Wheel, CB, Aluminum Wheels, Power Steering, Power Windows, Power Mirrors, Trip Odometer, Tinted Glass, Tilt Steering Wheel

    SELLER DESCRIPTION

    2002 FREIGHTLINER FL-60, 2002 Freightliner FL60 & 2001 United Trailer hauls cars, motorcycles & golf carts, turnkey show truck, real eye catcher, generator, hydraulic decks

    • (941) 915-4561
    Vehicle Location: Sarasota, FL
    marka
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    25 Jul 2008 11:15 AM

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:
    marka wrote:

    I don't really give a crap.

    Cursing is always a good counterpoint versus simple math and factory ratings. If you had the numbers, put up 'em up! I just personally know lots of people in and around my business that won't get anything but a diesel, but can't explain why, other than "it's better" and "it'll last for 400,000 miles". Perhaps you've done your research, but I rarely run into people who do....

    I'm not sure exactly why I need to prove to you that its a better choice for us, but the short version is that the v10 Dodge got ~6 mpg towing our enclosed trailer and the Cummins gets ~12 mpg. Unloaded, the v10 Dodge got ~10mpg and the Cummins gets ~18mpg. Those are real world #'s that we've seen, not whatever some other moron posted on the internet. As you probably know manufacturers don't publish mileage #'s on these trucks. I haven't done the math recently, but when we got the diesel (its an '05), the savings in fuel alone at almost any realistic mileage per year covered the different in monthly payment between the two options, without counting things like much higher resale value & the reported better longevity of the Cummins vs. a gas motor.

    In terms of towing performance, again I don't give a rat's butt what the ratings say, the Cummins pulls _much_ harder than the v10 when you want it to, and doesn't hardly ever need to shift down out of OD on the highway like the v10 often did.

    I think the Dodge v10 in that year (2004) wasn't a particularly good gasser to be honest, but the Ford v10 & Chevy big blocks I've driven haven't felt twice as good as it either.

    The fact that my experience mirrors what others who've done both seem to overwhelmingly say is a nice corroboration, but its also not why I hold my opinion. If you're using your truck for real, you likely would be smarter to get a diesel vs. gas.

    Again, you're more than welcome to have your own opinion. Even if its wrong. :-)

    Mark

    marka
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    25 Jul 2008 11:20 AM

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:
    Maybe not a bad idea. This rig comes with a trailer with living quarters, and is less than a new diesel dually alone!

    Also, just yesterday I played around on Ford's site configuring an F450 dually. I don't know what options your deciding to get, but putting about anything on the truck I'd ever want (4wd XLT, etc.) I came up with ~$51k _MSRP_. And if you're paying MSRP in this market, you're a damned idiot.

    You don't need to like diesels. Plenty of people don't and there are reasons they don't make sense for some usages (i.e. where a half ton w/small motor will do the same job). But try not to exaggerate your claims.

    Mark

    47CP
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    25 Jul 2008 12:01 PM

    I hate to enter into yet another Mark "It's my way or the highway" Andy thread to be told my experience or opinion is wrong or stupid, but there may be other people, who are actually reasonable, who want actual information.

    We tow our enclosed 24' store trailer with a 2004 E350 with V-10. I tow my 24' car trailer with my 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab with Cummins Diesel. Both trailers are similarly loaded and essentially identical as far as shape, etc. We also go to the same place, at the same time, obviously under the same conditions. This season, we have slowed down to abut 73mph to save fuel.

    The Van averages about 6.8 MPG. It rarely gets much better or worse. It does spend a lot of time in 3rd gear vs. overdrive. I put 4.10 gears in it, and if they were available, I would love to go 4.56 or 4.88. It pulls most hills just fine and can keep up, but running at 75mph on the highway up a decent (midwest) grade is about all the power it has.

    This year, the truck has had a dramatic jump in mileage and averages around 10.4. Last year, it averaged 9.2 and rarely broke 10. It almost never downshifts and does have a reserve of power at most times.

    That is the end of the facts that I am sure Mark will dispute.

    My personal opinion is that I like towing with the diesel better, but it doesn't save any money over the amount of towing I do per year. If I were looking for another vehicle to tow with, and diesels were easy to find (e.g pickups) I'd likely go that way, but if I were looking at another van, where diesels are less powerful and hard to find, I wouldn't shy away from a Ford V-10. Though I don't have the direct gas vs. diesel towing the same trailer to the same place comparison on them, I previously owned an older Dodge Diesel (2001) and a Ford 7.3 Powerstroke (2002). Both Dodges tow better and get better mileage. I may have had a bad 7.3 but it had about the same towing power as the V-10 van, with lots of downshifts and not so great mileage.

    Getting back to the original post, a medium duty truck would probably be better, but there are plenty of people towing these sized trailers with 1 ton duallies. If you go with a V-10 Ford, get a 4.56 or 4.88 rear gear. :)

    HTH, YMMV, etc.,

    DaveW

    marka
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    25 Jul 2008 01:39 PM

    Howdy,

    47CP wrote:

    I hate to enter into yet another Mark "It's my way or the highway" Andy thread to be told my experience or opinion is wrong or stupid, but there may be other people, who are actually reasonable, who want actual information.

    We tow our enclosed 24' store trailer with a 2004 E350 with V-10. I tow my 24' car trailer with my 2006 Dodge Ram Mega Cab with Cummins Diesel. Both trailers are similarly loaded and essentially identical as far as shape, etc. We also go to the same place, at the same time, obviously under the same conditions. This season, we have slowed down to abut 73mph to save fuel.

    The Van averages about 6.8 MPG. It rarely gets much better or worse. It does spend a lot of time in 3rd gear vs. overdrive. I put 4.10 gears in it, and if they were available, I would love to go 4.56 or 4.88. It pulls most hills just fine and can keep up, but running at 75mph on the highway up a decent (midwest) grade is about all the power it has.

    This year, the truck has had a dramatic jump in mileage and averages around 10.4. Last year, it averaged 9.2 and rarely broke 10. It almost never downshifts and does have a reserve of power at most times.

    That is the end of the facts that I am sure Mark will dispute.

    Jeez Dave, paranoid much? :-)

    Actually, that dovetails into my experience pretty well. I tend to tow between 65 & 70, so the mileage difference on our Cummins trucks makes some sense to me.

    I think the Dodge v10, particularly in the 2004 trucks, was pretty poor in terms of both performance and mileage. I'm not surprised that the ford v10 would do better, particularly in a van body vs. a truck body (no cap).

    However, even with that, and making some pretty generic assumptions:

    Figuring 12k miles, at 6.8 mpg for gas, 10 mpg for diesel, $4/gal gas, and $4.75/gal diesel, I get $1359 in fuel savings... Do that for five years and you've paid for the diesel option cost and the higher resale and easier towing is just a bonus.

    Even at 9.2 mpg for the diesel, you still save $863.

    Mark

    (edit: The cross over point where diesel fuel costs are the same as the gas motor (using 10mpg for the diesel) would be where gas is $4/gal and diesel is $5.88/gal. There's certainly a difference right now between gas & diesel fuel prices, but I can't see (don't want to see?) the difference becoming that large. Heck, back not that long ago diesel cost _less_ than gas!)

    Primetime Glick
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    25 Jul 2008 03:29 PM
    marka wrote:

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:
    Maybe not a bad idea. This rig comes with a trailer with living quarters, and is less than a new diesel dually alone!

    Also, just yesterday I played around on Ford's site configuring an F450 dually. I don't know what options your deciding to get, but putting about anything on the truck I'd ever want (4wd XLT, etc.) I came up with ~$51k _MSRP_. And if you're paying MSRP in this market, you're a damned idiot.

    You don't need to like diesels. Plenty of people don't and there are reasons they don't make sense for some usages (i.e. where a half ton w/small motor will do the same job). But try not to exaggerate your claims.

    Mark

    OK, OK, OK.... I APOLOGIZE for a GROSS exaggeration, being off by less than 10 % [:O]. IIRC, they were significantly more expensive last year. Ford, like all domestic MFGs, is in the toilet this year, and I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the price.

    $55,000 TOTAL for a Medium + Stacker + Living Quarters.... you'd be hard pressed to match that with a $50,000 dually + a $20,000 GN + xxx Hotel.... But I'll assume ahead of time that's a full o' crap assumption, too. Save ya the trouble [;)] Paradoxically, the medium duty truck was your suggestion to begin with!

    Primetime Glick
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    25 Jul 2008 03:31 PM

    delete

    marka
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    25 Jul 2008 04:11 PM

    Howdy,

    Primetime Glick wrote:
    OK, OK, OK.... I APOLOGIZE for a GROSS exaggeration, I was off by less than 10 % [:O]. IIRC they were significantly more expensive last year. Ford like all domestic MFGs is in the toilet this year, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the price.

    My point was that even going with one of the "big guns" at full MSRP I didn't get to your exaggerated claims. If you want to be a little more down to earth, MSRP on a 2wd Dodge 3500 SLT regular cab dually with diesel & manual trans is $39k. Quad cab adds another $4k to that.

    Edmunds seems to think you should be able to get those trucks for invoice these days, before the $4.5k of incentives they're showing... I.e. for those trucks above they think you should be paying ~$30k & ~$33k. That's a far cry from the inflated #'s you're talking about. Granted, I'd add an automatic, 4wd, and a few other options, but even then I'm at ~$36k according to Edmunds... i.e. about $20k less than you're telling people a truck like that would cost.

    Mark

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