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Last Post 22 Sep 2008 11:17 PM by  KBroeker
New Pax for SMS and Street tire Stock classes
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chriskrumnow
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13 Sep 2008 02:08 PM

    cancelled!!!!

    sms .812

    sst .807

    ast .797

    bst .787

    cst .786

    dst .767

    est .772

    fst .776

    gst .770

    hst .747

    These are taking effect immediately. I will be adding the classes to myautoevents.com soon!

    Thanks!

    Peppler33CS
    Basic Member
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    Posts:327


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    13 Sep 2008 04:31 PM

    I'm not sure where these are coming from, where they discussed at the last meeting? Maybe I missed it. SMS is a build up from STU (allows more mods, turbo mods, etc), basically they are SM cars on street tires. With this ruling, all STU cars can go to SMS and run .812 instead of .830. Heck, this also mean STS should be faster then SMS? I don't get it, maybe I missed the request for feedback.

    chriskrumnow
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    13 Sep 2008 06:56 PM

    I knew that this would come up. You didn't miss any meetings. No one wanted to come to the meetings I had. So I took it upon myself to even the playing field. I am not interested in being any part of an organization doesn't try to be fair. Don't even try to defend the pax or stock classing. They are clearly broken. These are region only classes. This pax is based on region entries. I'm sick of pandering to people who buy certaain cars just to win. At the same time we are punishing the people that just bring the cars they own. This is primary reason I wanted to be the Solo Director. I was trying to make the region's events fair.

    This pax was based upon the closest someone came to winning an event last year in sms. The sms is not a class that has anyone that has prepared their car to the limit of the national rules. I'm certainly open to other ideas. I can't seem to get anyone to care about fairness unless something is changed that effects them. I am waiting for other options...

    I see your point.

    Under any other options, there will be no winner of any event from sms...ever! That idea is not acceptable.

    Peppler33CS
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    Posts:327


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    13 Sep 2008 11:34 PM
    chriskrumnow wrote:

    I knew that this would come up. You didn't miss any meetings. No one wanted to come to the meetings I had. So I took it upon myself to even the playing field.

    Then why didn't you give us the full story to start with?

    chriskrumnow wrote:

    Don't even try to defend the pax or stock classing.

    ???. I simply was saying you take STU, add mods to go faster, and now you're PAXing the class much slower?? I didn't say anything about stock classing.

    chriskrumnow wrote:

    I can't seem to get anyone to care about fairness unless something is changed that effects them.

    Trust me, everyone cares about fairness and about growing our membership. I'm just saying a better idea would have been to pose the problem to the membership group, take ideas, and then with the support of the members you implement the idea.

    Your math for stock classes translates into street tires being 2.7 slower on a 60 second course. Obviously that is very generous and is open to debate. I've seen discussions stating 1.5 to 2 seconds on a 60 second course, but again that is discussion. Maybe we can do a test at the end of the next event??

    chriskrumnow wrote:

    Under any other options, there will be no winner of any event from sms...ever! That idea is not acceptable.

    Your SMS makes no sense at all in my opinion. A certain black STI has won events in STU and his car would be underprepped for SMS.

    But again its my opinion since I wasn't asked before this rule change was put into effect.

    wrheadle
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    14 Sep 2008 01:16 PM

    Chris-

    I would request that you publish in this forum:

    1) Your definition of "fair" and please be specific.

    2) The derivation of the index values and the thinking behind the method. Not just some words to descrube it but enough that someone can duplicate the math.

    Only with this information can you have relevant discussion on the appropriateness of the heavy handed rule you have just dictated.

    I would also strongly request that you present this at the board meeting this month. Changes of this magnitude should have visibility from the board.

    I am disappointed you went and did something potentially good in a way that virtaully guarantees a negative response. I think that more effort should have been placed on soliciting feedback before implementation. This forum would have been one good place for feedback. The Drift would have been another.

    Bill

    sts38
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    14 Sep 2008 06:31 PM
    chriskrumnow wrote:

    sms .812

    sst .807

    ast .797

    bst .787

    cst .786

    dst .767

    est .772

    fst .776

    gst .770

    hst .747

    These are taking effect immediately. I will be adding the classes to myautoevents.com soon!

    Thanks!

    .812??? Wooo Hooo......SMS here I come.

    SpeedTeacher
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    14 Sep 2008 08:10 PM

    Chris,

    I love the fact that we would try and create some street tire classes for the region. Over the next couple years I really anticipate more new people learning about the sport. I am personally working pretty hard to drive more young people to the sport. I anticipate the vast majority will be on street tires. This could be a great idea for the sport.

    When we added SMS to the region, there was an exceptional amount of back and forth about what the proper PAX should be. That was just one class. If we are going to add nine (if I counted correctly) new classes, there is a significant amount of math and research that needs to be done. Doing it from the hip won't really do any justice to the process.

    The PAX for SMS is the perfect example of numbers that don't jibe. I would immediately switch to SMS from STU based on a PAX of .812 (vs. .830, where I am now). Andrew referenced a difference of 2.7 seconds difference on a 60 second course. While this is a plus for that person who is on street tires, you have now penalized those people who do invest in race tires for their stock class. The difference between street tires and race tires is definitely not 2.7 seconds. When I started the sport ten years ago, the anecdotal difference was 2 seconds. What I have seen over the past several years is actually a little less than that.

    Any type of change like this should go through membership. I know its frustrating that people don't come to Solo meetings (trust me... I know!), but if that doesn't work, then you have to go to plan B. Also I would expect any type of PAX change (or class addition) be done in the 'off-season' so it doesn't effect the season points. I am pretty sure that I would immediately go to 2nd in overall points by moving to SMS. I am already up toward the top, and now have two events to take advantage of a much better PAX. That's not fair to anyone.

    Frustration is often the basis for change (both good and bad). I will always support something that will help attendance (and bringing people back) for our Club. Maybe this will be the spark you needed to get the conversation going.

    Todd James

    chriskrumnow
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    14 Sep 2008 08:42 PM
    Thank you for your attention! I should have done this months ago. I can't do anything about the national classes. Nor do I have any desire to get into that mess. In my opinion, cs,ds, es,and gs should be reclassed. We can get into that another time. Race tires alone do not create a 2.7 sec difference. Custom shocks are a huge helper.
    Every class should have an equal chance to first overall. The creation of the regional classes is to do just that. The regional PAX will reflect regional drivers. The challenge is to have a set of regional rules that support the new PAX.
    The SMS index was taken from the smallest amount of help the SMS winner be first overall. The specific event was last year at Kruse. Chris Smith would have won at RocktoberX. SMS had never been closer to winning. He only needed a PAX of .812 to win. There was no other event in the last 3 years that any SMS car would have won with that index. What is killing SMS is that it is being set by the national evos and stis.
    The last event last year had resulted in the closest a stock class had ever been to winning an event. Brian Britten in HS was responsible for it. He only needed .045 over his current PAX to win the event. I then shared that extra with the rest of the stock classes. I couldn't go back any further than last year for stock street tire. I just don't remember who was running on street tires in 2006. There was no other stock entry that was closer.
    The regional classes rules:
    1. Only mass produced shocks allowed in stock street tire classes. No custom valve shocks allowed. Rule of thumb... if you can't buy the shocks at Auto Zone, you aren't using the shocks in stock street tire class.
    2. Tires must have a wear rating of at least 140.
    3. Any car used in more than one GASS, Divisional, National Tour, Pro Solo, or equivalent is not eligible to be used in Fort Wayne Region Street Tire stock classes and SMS.
    4. The PAX for SMS class is to come from the least amount of help that would have yielded an SMS event winner in the past 3 years. In the event that SMS is first overall, the least amount of help that entry would have needed to win becomes the new SMS PAX. The Stock Street Tire PAX is derived from the least amount of help any Stock Class would have needed to win overall. In the event that Stock Street Tire class wins, the least amount of help the winner would have needed to win becomes the new pax adjustment for that class.
    5. In the event that there is a driver attempting to corrupt any of the Region's Classes. That person will be banned from all of the regional classes.
    This was the one thing I want to accomplish this year as solo director.
    Now...you can let me have it.
    chriskrumnow
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    14 Sep 2008 08:47 PM
    I forgot one thing. Unless something goes horribly wrong I won't be competing in any of the regional classes for a while. The talon is in STS.
    OneEyeMedia
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    14 Sep 2008 09:03 PM

    Todd: "I would expect any type of PAX change (or class addition) be done in the 'off-season' so it doesn't effect the season points."

    +1

    There is only two events left of the year for our club, why do a sudden change like this. It is really not worth the frustration it is going to cause for the club.

    As for getting new people back to the club... This could be something to attract them if they feel they are placing better; but a guy/gal that comes out and races 1-3 of the first events and never goes to any other events but his region, they should not get discouraged. Instead, we as a club should take them under our wing and ride with them, let them feel they are wanted, and try to get them involved in more events than just their region they are a apart of (if their schedule permits it). (I know a few of us are doing this)

    I for one know what it is like to drive in a class with a car that was not competitive against the class spec car. But I kept doing it so I could get the seat time. You can not just expect to be fast with only racing 1-3 events in the year and they are only ones in your region. Maybe a real select few can do it; but in any case, there should be some since of reality that the people you are racing with are passionate in what they are doing and have been putting some SEAT TIME in.

    What is the total goal?

    We are wanting a overall PAX time win right?

    So, if I had the slanted H put in SMS and I compete hard enough in that class and received a 1st place spot, theoratical (depending on my overall time) I could win on PAX? Is this the type of PAX that is trying to be made?


    OneEyeMedia
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    14 Sep 2008 09:11 PM

    Rule 3:

    If I own a Subaru and I run in a regular class of SMS in Fort Wayne Region; but then I go to those events to become a better driver; but have to run in a SM class because of no SMS class - I would be punished! This does not work for guy/glas that are trying to better themselves and be more competitive with their driving.


    chriskrumnow
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    14 Sep 2008 10:43 PM

    Remember, I am not personally attacking anyone for being able to afford a nationally competitve car.

    Why do we think it's okay to punish someone for not spending money on race tires? The national office has already taken that stance. The nationally competitive people already have a handicap. I am trying to give the people that are being punished some relief and the same chance to win an event.

    I take it that the stock street tire part isn't the issue. We have to find a way to stop punishing people for not being nationally competitive.

    I know that nothing is pefect. I'm open for suggestions!

    SpeedTeacher
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    14 Sep 2008 11:31 PM
    chriskrumnow wrote:
    Thank you for your attention! I should have done this months ago. I can't do anything about the national classes. Nor do I have any desire to get into that mess. In my opinion, cs,ds, es,and gs should be reclassed. We can get into that another time. Race tires alone do not create a 2.7 sec difference. Custom shocks are a huge helper.
    Every class should have an equal chance to first overall. The creation of the regional classes is to do just that. The regional PAX will reflect regional drivers. The challenge is to have a set of regional rules that support the new PAX.
    The SMS index was taken from the smallest amount of help the SMS winner be first overall. The specific event was last year at Kruse. Chris Smith would have won at RocktoberX. SMS had never been closer to winning. He only needed a PAX of .812 to win. There was no other event in the last 3 years that any SMS car would have won with that index. What is killing SMS is that it is being set by the national evos and stis.
    The last event last year had resulted in the closest a stock class had ever been to winning an event. Brian Britten in HS was responsible for it. He only needed .045 over his current PAX to win the event. I then shared that extra with the rest of the stock classes. I couldn't go back any further than last year for stock street tire. I just don't remember who was running on street tires in 2006. There was no other stock entry that was closer.
    The regional classes rules:
    1. Only mass produced shocks allowed in stock street tire classes. No custom valve shocks allowed. Rule of thumb... if you can't buy the shocks at Auto Zone, you aren't using the shocks in stock street tire class.
    2. Tires must have a wear rating of at least 140.
    3. Any car used in more than one GASS, Divisional, National Tour, Pro Solo, or equivalent is not eligible to be used in Fort Wayne Region Street Tire stock classes and SMS.
    4. The PAX for SMS class is to come from the least amount of help that would have yielded an SMS event winner in the past 3 years. In the event that SMS is first overall, the least amount of help that entry would have needed to win becomes the new SMS PAX. The Stock Street Tire PAX is derived from the least amount of help any Stock Class would have needed to win overall. In the event that Stock Street Tire class wins, the least amount of help the winner would have needed to win becomes the new pax adjustment for that class.
    5. In the event that there is a driver attempting to corrupt any of the Region's Classes. That person will be banned from all of the regional classes.
    This was the one thing I want to accomplish this year as solo director.
    Now...you can let me have it.

    Chris,

    In the spirit of sportsmanship, I will offer some feedback/pushback...

    1. Every car should have an equal chance to win first overall. - This is noble and is the true intention of the PAX. Unfortunately the complexity of the SCCA structure, and the base calculations for the PAX doesn't make it any easier. I do think though, that you are trying to adapt the cars, when in reality you should challenge drivers. This is a sport. Drivers who invest time (going to bigger events) and money (proper mods) shouldn't be penalized. We have a novice class and a pro class. I think that's a great start.

    2. Chris Smith would have won with a PAX of .812 and the SMS pax is being killed by national level STI's and Evo's. If you switch the PAX to .812, then Chuck will win every time. I will be second every time. Heck, Ryan, my co-driver will most likely be third. You are using flawed logic at the very core of your reasoning. How could you say in one sentence that you are evening the playing field and then give me an opportunity to run with a PAX that is better than STS. That would be AWESOME. Travis and I would be running heads up. Sweet. As far as national level being dictated by STI's and Evo's... I think you will find M3's and Civics up there as well. Its not fair to say its just the all-wheel-drive cars. I think you would get more support if you tried to get an all-wheel-drive only class. That seems to be a national topic of discussion each year anyway.

    3. Brian Britten came close in H-Stock. Again, making sweeping changes based on individual drivers is flawed logic. Brian is a good driver. But, in order to do it mathematically, you would have to analyze the number of drivers at the event, which ones were in which class, what was the weather like, what heat did he run. You are making an adjustment based on one event. You would then have create an algorhythm that factors in how much those factors helped or hindered him that day. But, the first thing that jumps out at me is that Brian normally drives that ridiculously loud Firebird. He hardly ever drives in H-Stock. So, we need to look as his experience level and determine how much faster he will be if he drove in H-Stock for a full season. As he got used to the car he would become even faster. At least the national pax numbers are based on a year's worth of samples. In fact, I do believe it does include some events beyond National Level events.

    4. Only mass-produced shocks allowed (The AutoZone Rule) - Probably not too far fetched. Could be managed.

    5. Any car that has been to GASS event (etc...) is not eligible for stock street tire or SMS. Doesn't make sense. There are many reasons to attend a bigger event (the experience, the fellowship, the competition) to exclude anybody. I went to divisional events in my Mustang, on street tires when I was in FS. I met great people, had a great time and fell in love with the sport. Oh yeah... I got smoked. I didn't expect to win. I wanted the experience. But here is the problem... I have not been to any events outside a regional event this year. That means I would be eligible for SMS.

    6. PAX adjustments will be made based on event performance (I am paraphrasing). This is overly complex and again is doing something without enough data to prove itself out. It sounds like you are benchmarking roadracing which applies weight to cars based on their performance. That is actually pretty simple.

    7. In the event somebody tries to corrupt regional classes, they will be banned from all the region's classes. This is just ridiculous. How do you 'corrupt' a regional class? Is that like kicking the butt of the science nerd who blew the bell curve on a college science exam. Competition is all about finding the best way to win, within the rules, and doing it. I could just co-drive, each event, with a buddy whose car has the best PAX. Would I be corrupting the region's classes?

    8. This is the one thing you wanted to accomplish as solo director. I think its great to want to leave a legacy and make your mark. I even think what you are trying to do is a noble effort. Unfortunately, this is something that is wrestled with all over the country, on a national level. SCCA has grown to be a series of spec classes that cater more to a national audience than a regional audience. It is frustrating. But, the problem is, your solution is so far in left field that it obviously won't work. I think it is stirring the pot to get the group together to talk about it, which might have been your objective. If so, it was brilliant, because I have been moved to comment extensively.

    In the words of George Russell... (I think)

    Respectfully Submitted,

    Todd

    sts38
    Basic Member
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    Posts:191


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    15 Sep 2008 07:32 AM
    SpeedTeacher wrote:
    chriskrumnow wrote:
    Thank you for your attention! I should have done this months ago. I can't do anything about the national classes. Nor do I have any desire to get into that mess. In my opinion, cs,ds, es,and gs should be reclassed. We can get into that another time. Race tires alone do not create a 2.7 sec difference. Custom shocks are a huge helper.
    Every class should have an equal chance to first overall. The creation of the regional classes is to do just that. The regional PAX will reflect regional drivers. The challenge is to have a set of regional rules that support the new PAX.
    The SMS index was taken from the smallest amount of help the SMS winner be first overall. The specific event was last year at Kruse. Chris Smith would have won at RocktoberX. SMS had never been closer to winning. He only needed a PAX of .812 to win. There was no other event in the last 3 years that any SMS car would have won with that index. What is killing SMS is that it is being set by the national evos and stis.
    The last event last year had resulted in the closest a stock class had ever been to winning an event. Brian Britten in HS was responsible for it. He only needed .045 over his current PAX to win the event. I then shared that extra with the rest of the stock classes. I couldn't go back any further than last year for stock street tire. I just don't remember who was running on street tires in 2006. There was no other stock entry that was closer.
    The regional classes rules:
    1. Only mass produced shocks allowed in stock street tire classes. No custom valve shocks allowed. Rule of thumb... if you can't buy the shocks at Auto Zone, you aren't using the shocks in stock street tire class.
    2. Tires must have a wear rating of at least 140.
    3. Any car used in more than one GASS, Divisional, National Tour, Pro Solo, or equivalent is not eligible to be used in Fort Wayne Region Street Tire stock classes and SMS.
    4. The PAX for SMS class is to come from the least amount of help that would have yielded an SMS event winner in the past 3 years. In the event that SMS is first overall, the least amount of help that entry would have needed to win becomes the new SMS PAX. The Stock Street Tire PAX is derived from the least amount of help any Stock Class would have needed to win overall. In the event that Stock Street Tire class wins, the least amount of help the winner would have needed to win becomes the new pax adjustment for that class.
    5. In the event that there is a driver attempting to corrupt any of the Region's Classes. That person will be banned from all of the regional classes.
    This was the one thing I want to accomplish this year as solo director.
    Now...you can let me have it.

    Chris,

    In the spirit of sportsmanship, I will offer some feedback/pushback...

    1. Every car should have an equal chance to win first overall. - This is noble and is the true intention of the PAX. Unfortunately the complexity of the SCCA structure, and the base calculations for the PAX doesn't make it any easier. I do think though, that you are trying to adapt the cars, when in reality you should challenge drivers. This is a sport. Drivers who invest time (going to bigger events) and money (proper mods) shouldn't be penalized. We have a novice class and a pro class. I think that's a great start.

    2. Chris Smith would have won with a PAX of .812 and the SMS pax is being killed by national level STI's and Evo's. If you switch the PAX to .812, then Chuck will win every time. I will be second every time. Heck, Ryan, my co-driver will most likely be third. You are using flawed logic at the very core of your reasoning. How could you say in one sentence that you are evening the playing field and then give me an opportunity to run with a PAX that is better than STS. That would be AWESOME. Travis and I would be running heads up. Sweet. As far as national level being dictated by STI's and Evo's... I think you will find M3's and Civics up there as well. Its not fair to say its just the all-wheel-drive cars. I think you would get more support if you tried to get an all-wheel-drive only class. That seems to be a national topic of discussion each year anyway.

    3. Brian Britten came close in H-Stock. Again, making sweeping changes based on individual drivers is flawed logic. Brian is a good driver. But, in order to do it mathematically, you would have to analyze the number of drivers at the event, which ones were in which class, what was the weather like, what heat did he run. You are making an adjustment based on one event. You would then have create an algorhythm that factors in how much those factors helped or hindered him that day. But, the first thing that jumps out at me is that Brian normally drives that ridiculously loud Firebird. He hardly ever drives in H-Stock. So, we need to look as his experience level and determine how much faster he will be if he drove in H-Stock for a full season. As he got used to the car he would become even faster. At least the national pax numbers are based on a year's worth of samples. In fact, I do believe it does include some events beyond National Level events.

    4. Only mass-produced shocks allowed (The AutoZone Rule) - Probably not too far fetched. Could be managed.

    5. Any car that has been to GASS event (etc...) is not eligible for stock street tire or SMS. Doesn't make sense. There are many reasons to attend a bigger event (the experience, the fellowship, the competition) to exclude anybody. I went to divisional events in my Mustang, on street tires when I was in FS. I met great people, had a great time and fell in love with the sport. Oh yeah... I got smoked. I didn't expect to win. I wanted the experience. But here is the problem... I have not been to any events outside a regional event this year. That means I would be eligible for SMS.

    6. PAX adjustments will be made based on event performance (I am paraphrasing). This is overly complex and again is doing something without enough data to prove itself out. It sounds like you are benchmarking roadracing which applies weight to cars based on their performance. That is actually pretty simple.

    7. In the event somebody tries to corrupt regional classes, they will be banned from all the region's classes. This is just ridiculous. How do you 'corrupt' a regional class? Is that like kicking the butt of the science nerd who blew the bell curve on a college science exam. Competition is all about finding the best way to win, within the rules, and doing it. I could just co-drive, each event, with a buddy whose car has the best PAX. Would I be corrupting the region's classes?

    8. This is the one thing you wanted to accomplish as solo director. I think its great to want to leave a legacy and make your mark. I even think what you are trying to do is a noble effort. Unfortunately, this is something that is wrestled with all over the country, on a national level. SCCA has grown to be a series of spec classes that cater more to a national audience than a regional audience. It is frustrating. But, the problem is, your solution is so far in left field that it obviously won't work. I think it is stirring the pot to get the group together to talk about it, which might have been your objective. If so, it was brilliant, because I have been moved to comment extensively.

    In the words of George Russell... (I think)

    Respectfully Submitted,

    Todd

    Nicely put Todd....I agree 100%. I think we could pull off Street Tire Stock classes (Detroit Region does this), but we cannot do this with only 2 events remaining. Chris, I'd be curious to see your data that brought you to the conclusion that r compounds make you 2.7 seconds faster on a 60 sec course. If driving a SS Z06 I might agree, but an HS mini would also gain the same margin??? Countless hours and data go into creating the National PAX. In my opinion, a general 2.7 number pulled out of the air cannot be used to figure a new PAX. Results would be skewed. Dropping the SMS pax to .812 is crazy. It doesn't make sense and would eliminate all the ST classes. SMS should NOT be faster (have a softer PAX) than STU. Why? Because you can swap motors, add turbos and superchargers, increase boost, wider wheels and tires.....etc. Why punish people who have read the rule book and properly classed and modified their car? I agree a swapped or turbo'd civic will struggle running with the SM Evo's and STi's. I'm typing this message while at Nationals in Topeka, KS....you should see the amount of money and development that goes into these SM civics....Will an SM Civic win it this year? Probably not, but they knew this going into SM and it was their choice to take their car to this class anyway. They know what they are up against, but do it for the love of the sport and the love of modifying their car. Do I have the answers to address your concerns? No, but neither does one person using 2 drivers at 2 different events for their data points. This should be discuss in the off season. Btw...I've been giving it everything thing I've got for over 5 years now and STILL haven't won an event.....can we adjust the STS PAX so I can win one for a change?

    Travis

    chriskrumnow
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    15 Sep 2008 08:30 AM

    I went through 2 years of stock classes and 3 years for SMS. The pax that I am telling you would have only changed 2 events in the last 2 or 3 years. The numbers don't lie. That isn't the issue we should be looking at. The stock classes aren't the issue.

    What rules should we put into use to keep the sms class pure. the pax should reflect it's drivers. It's idealistic but that how it has to start.

    Chris

    The Nebulizer
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    15 Sep 2008 10:05 AM

    As an unbiased outsider curious about street tire classes (as well as a statistics and math guy), I have to say I am very confused by this. I see good intentions leading to some problematic indexing.

    Class indexing should not be used to balance skill. Indexing should not even be used to balance car preparedness. (Classing itself should deal with this). Indexing is about balancing out the class potential. If mixed with any other factor, the entire system will break down and you will have chaos and a meaningless PAX system.

    As a fellow SMS driver (Indy region), I drive an underprepared car (currently excluded from STU, with just CAI and coilovers). I have never been near the top of the PAX in 2 years even with Indy's new SMS class (PAX = .845). But, I do not deserve to win PAX, beacuse I am not good enough and my car is not prepared well enough. I deserve a 'fair' shot though. And, fairness comes from treating everyone in an equal and balanced manner. Handicapping every driver with a global index simply doesn't work and will create tons of problems. As stated, what keeps Chuck (or other top STU, STX, STS drivers) from driving SMS? Is he simply not allowed to? What if he does a hood swap? Then he has to run SMS - is he going to be turned away? Questions like this will make policing this system impossible. If anythign you would be better off handicapping each driver rather than the classes (but that would also be a bad idea and present a whole new set of problems).

    I have not been able to attend a FW region event yet (hope to soon), but I have to say I would be turned off if I were handed a handicapped index and easy PAX win. Its not fair and I wouldn't deserve it. As I have stated in threads about the Ladies classes, easy trophies do not make happy autoXers that continue in the sport.

    What concerns me most about this posting is how little it appears others were consulted in this. Now, I have no idea what FW region is like, but I would strongly encourage developing a meeting system where ideas can be bounced around several people to get multiple inputs. I think this was a plan developed with good intentions, but other inputs are needed to refine it before making it law. I get the impression Chris feels like he is overloaded and could use help (often the case for Chairman in autoX I woudl say). But, I think there are plenty of FW guys that would like to help out. I see JPM, chuck, and others coming to Indy events and forums trying to drum up FW support. I'd strongly suggest having a meeting about this and holding off any changes until off season. (BTW I would be happy to help out with any stats, math, suggestions, etc)

    Hopefully, this post comes across as helpful. If my input is not desired, I will stay out of it. But, I thought perhaps an outsider opinion would have some merit.

    Peppler33CS
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:327


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    15 Sep 2008 01:37 PM

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    but that how it has to start. These are taking effect immediately.

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    I'm open for suggestions!

    Again, the issue isn't all about what you are "implementing immediately".... its about how you are going about it. But now you are saying you are open to suggestions? OK, whatever.

    Here is my suggestion,

    Detroit region has street tires for stock classes, these are indexed at 98% of the stock class (SS is .852 so SS street tire is .835 and so on). This has worked for them for a few years so it is working for them. Simple enough, but during trophies all street tire Stock class is grouped into one group, like we are trying to do with Pro class. This results in competition (you don't get a trophy if you are the only one in H stock street class) since you are competiting against other stock street tire cars. Simple enough.

    As for SMS, you should just drop the idea of .812 "immediately". Street Mod is for very modified fast cars, a person should run STS, STS2, STX, STU if they can of course. If they beyond the mods for these classes, well welcome to SMS. SM PAX is .860, if the same 98% rule is used..... SMS=.843.

    Street tire stock class should mirror all stock class rules, except tires. Checking for "illegal" shocks is difficult, you can revalve any shock even if you buy them at autozone.

    We should be encouraging participation in division/national events, if someone is thinking "man, I'd really like to try the Peru tour but I'll get kick out of my local class"... then this is not right.

    Chris, I will support the change at the right time and with the right math & logic behind the changes, but you really need a little teamwork here otherwise nothing will be accomplished.

    KBower
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    15 Sep 2008 05:00 PM
    chriskrumnow wrote:

    I went through 2 years of stock classes and 3 years for SMS. The pax that I am telling you would have only changed 2 events in the last 2 or 3 years. The numbers don't lie. That isn't the issue we should be looking at. The stock classes aren't the issue.

    What rules should we put into use to keep the sms class pure. the pax should reflect it's drivers. It's idealistic but that how it has to start.

    Chris

    I thought the PAX was to allow drivers to compare their times to cars not in their class.
    wrheadle
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    15 Sep 2008 08:46 PM

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    the pax should reflect it's drivers.

    Absolutely, no way, not a chance in H-E-double hockey stick, should any indexing solution of any kind ever give a rat's arse about who is driving the car. Indexing is to equalize vehicles only.

    To create an index, you need to have fully prepared vehicles with equal drivers competing at the same time on the same course. Rick Ruth puts a lot of time (and experience) into the PAX, based on large national events so that he has the best prepped cars and the best drivers to base his numbers on. He also tends to have larger classes, which also give a better idea of the potential.

    The down side (AKA why you think the PAX is "broken") is that it is not as accurate on the tight, slow courses that we tend to have at our regional events. Realistically, you need to have a course (and thus a site large enough) such that all (or very nearly all) of the turns are of sufficient speed that the chassis setup is a significant factor in the speed that you can take the turn. Not even the coliseum event really met that goal (and as course designers, Scott and I were very disappointed with that fact).

    In the end, if we continue to run on small bumpy sites (Verizon, Kruse, and formerly International), the PAX will not be an exemplary index for the classes, but there is so much work involved in putting it together, it is not worth the effort to do a FWR unique one, especially since we have so very few nationally competitive cars and drivers out there (I'm not one and my car isn't quite one yet either).

    If there is really a burr up the club's behind to make a change, why not make a street tire index class where any car that runs on treadwear 140 or higher tires in a class that allows DOT-R or better tires (thus no STS/STS2/STX/STU/SMS) can be PAX indexed against each other, just like the Pro and Novice indexes. In the end, what you are proposing is a 70 plus class race where there are less than 70 cars running.

    If that souns OK to you, why not make everyone have their own index like Golf leagues and then you can compare yourself against whatever and whomever you want, and we can ignore the year end points altogether?

    Bill

    OneEyeMedia
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    15 Sep 2008 10:02 PM

    There is also one other thing we have with this. Since some regions have decided to have a SMS crowd, mainly because of the whole race tire competition. That one simple mod that might cost you 3-5$ for adjusting your boost on a OEM car it puts you into a SM class or the car owner that went and fab his/her outfit with carbon fiber hoods and what not. And now some feel bad cause they cannot win a PAX time event. This is were the NEWB's just have to realize that start learning how to drive and quit worring about the car. I was that newb and kind of still am in certain areas. But newbs don't know the rules and if it becomes a rude awaking to them, lets hold their hands and help them understand it will be ok! GIVE THEM A BIG CHUCK HUG 8)

    I wish there was this much energy looking for these bigger sites with smoother surfaces, even if we have to pay a little to get it. Market the club as a whole and continue making bad ass events like the Coliseum. I am sorry to chase off topic; but it just seems this would be just a band aid for the lost people in SMS crowd and this over whelming concern they are made they cannot win. I would conside myself very happy if I won an event with a stock car; but on stock or 140 tread tires higher - I would feel very guilty and as if it were handed to me.

    Well, I am sure this seems like nonsense on my end; but it is how I am seeing things these days.


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