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Last Post 22 Sep 2008 11:17 PM by  KBroeker
New Pax for SMS and Street tire Stock classes
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chriskrumnow
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15 Sep 2008 10:30 PM

Let's break this up a couple of different ways. Since I have the club laptop, I have an advantage. Bill would be the only other person who can easily test the new pax. I would never really change a pax that much during the season I am still putting the Street Tire Stock classes in! This is my last post on this thread. Feel free to email or call me with your questions or concerns.

1. The national office has given the regions the ability to make new classes based upon local interests

2. The indexes I started with are the correct ones. I'm betting Bill has already ran those numbers.

3. The extra rules for stock street tire are to keep nationally competitive cars from entering the region classes. They have their own classes and indexes. Shocks and race tires

4. The regional driver of the year is based upon the overall results. If the indexes i put forward are not used, you can only assume that someone does not want those classes to win. Maybe regional classes aren't as important as national classes? I know that will upset someone. If you have enough money and mechanical skill to make sure you are nationally competitive, great.

I have not and will not change the SMS pax this year to .812. That is a challenge for the next solo director. I wanted to make sure the subject is opened up. For those who don't know, I set the pax index when I setup each event on myautoevents.com. The pax was never changed there.

I will be speaking during the board meeting Wednesday. I will be explaining myself at the board meeting. You are certainly welcome to voice your opinion. I always liked a good philosophical discussion. I have always been partial to Ayn Rand and Descartes.

Chris

Locked
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15 Sep 2008 11:44 PM

chriskrumnow wrote:
This is primary reason I wanted to be the Solo Director. I was trying to make the region's events fair.

Last time I checked AutoX was competition. Who says competition is fair? Ever.. The way you are trying to "fix" the problem would be like only allowing swimmers in the Olympics with under a size 13 shoe. Michael Phelps with his huge feet couldn't play. Is that fair? I've seem this happen often at work. Managers put incentives in place to help weak/lacking employees. What happens is the good employees are the ones that get hurt. Instead of rewarding the good employees (competitors) we make their lifes more difficult. Is that fair?

Is it fair that the guys in SMS fighting for points now have to fight with both STU and STS cars because thats where it makes sense to go? Competition is not fair. The guys with the best cars and the most talent, and probably a little cheating win. That's the way it's always been and will never change.

Does the FWR really have a problem retaining people? If so, are people not coming back because their under prepared car and lack of driver ability made them pax low on the list? Are you trying to make the cost to play cheaper? Haven't we seen that to compete on street tires isn't cheap. How many of the national ST cars drive to events? On the same tires they are going to run? When you are running lots of camber/toe and shave a set down to 2/32 I'm guessing very very few. You still have to pay to be competitive even on street tires.

I typically run in CSCC.. They use a 1 second flat street tire credit that applies to stock, street prepared and street mod classes. The 1 second credit works for them because they run at the same site and typically have the same course lenghts and layouts. Anywhere else I could see creating a seperate PAX for typical R-comp classes. With the 1 second street tire credit there is always a good battle for first between an STU driver and a DS driver. Guess what? Both cars are pretty well prepared(not completely) and the drivers are probably the best 2 in the region. Am I mad that I can't compete? No. Would I change to sms with a pussy pax? No, I'd only be hurting myself.

chriskrumnow wrote:
I went through 2 years of stock classes and 3 years for SMS. The pax that I am telling you would have only changed 2 events in the last 2 or 3 years. The numbers don't lie. That isn't the issue we should be looking at. The stock classes aren't the issue.

The numbers are telling you something completely different than what you are trying to get them to say. They are saying that noone in the stock classes running street tires is either good enough and/or prepped enough to compete with whoever is consistently at the top of the PAX week in, week out. Especially if you have to adjust the pax that deep. Again why should the top guys have to suffer?

If I do the math on 1 second on a typical 60 second course the ST-Stock classes SMS would have a pax of .843. Is 1 second the loss from going from r-comps to a 140 treadwear? who knows. The same goes for your 2.7 seconds...

Look where that puts SMS? Right where you currently have it. If you want SMS to compete. Then tell all those drivers to prepare a car and figure out how to drive it. Until that happens why should the other classes with prepared cars and good drivers have to stuggle against classes with pussy pax's?

I don't know why I even care? It's not like I'm in your region. I was only lurking here considering making a trip up to 1 of your events from the efforts of others in your region. This thread makes me appreciate how the Indy Region does things.

Locked
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15 Sep 2008 11:58 PM

chriskrumnow wrote:
1. The national office has given the regions the ability to make new classes based upon local interests

Okay? This isn't exactly breaking news...

chriskrumnow wrote:
2. The indexes I started with are the correct ones. I'm betting Bill has already ran those numbers.

Running numbers against 1 regions ill prepared cars is meaningless.

chriskrumnow wrote:
3. The extra rules for stock street tire are to keep nationally competitive cars from entering the region classes. They have their own classes and indexes. Shocks and race tires

If you are going through the effort of creating competitve street tire stock classes why punish potential national cars/drivers that want to save their r-comp's for the bigger events?

chriskrumnow wrote:
4. The regional driver of the year is based upon the overall results. If the indexes i put forward are not used, you can only assume that someone does not want those classes to win. Maybe regional classes aren't as important as national classes? I know that will upset someone. If you have enough money and mechanical skill to make sure you are nationally competitive, great.

It's not that someone wouldn't want those classes to win locally it's that the logic in creating those indexes is inadequate. Putting Bob Farr(great driver) in DS from the CSCC region with your stock class street tire indexes would GUARANTEE him to walk away from the region. Who's to say that other great drivers in your region wouldn't make the switch?

OneEyeMedia
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16 Sep 2008 12:09 AM

Well put Locked.

Chris, why are you making that your last post. Walking away and only keeping these opinions to a personal email and or phone call is weird. You wanted to open pandora's box and now it is open and we might as well keep the thread open with comments.

Or club needs to be whole again... I bet if you were to reword your very first post to something like:

" Hey guys/gals, I have been running a few events these past few yeasr and have noticed that the SMS pax is running fairly low from top finishes. Why is this? Do you think that there should be a new pax setup for next year for the street tires in SM or and even maybe the stock classes? Maybe we can incorporate a new pax class just for street tires as a whole? I wanted to open this up for discussion and see what we come up with as a TEAM."

This would have been a lot friendly astmospher for you. I know you want to make things better and I know you have a drive to want to particpate with making the FWSCCA region better. But creating something and getting shut down or having your ideas torn up in the open and running away from the forums is not going to work brother. It will only create even more frustration. Many people do not have the time for even the one month meeting the board puts on. It is unfortunate; but we all have busy lives. I am sure there was events or socials you wanted to help with; but could not get the time free. As a Solo Director you are our leader, not our Dictator. When you need the help or support, you get it. Maybe some cannot all the time; but they try. Please do not run from this thread. Keep alive with it and keep trying. Remember, we are a Club and as a Club of many we can do more positive as a TEAM.

I know you are passionate about cars and the club, unfortanly the delivery of this thread in the orginal post made you look like a Dictator instead of a TEAM player.

Keep your head up and lets keep trying!

Cheers,

Jason Massey

chriskrumnow
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16 Sep 2008 02:27 AM
Jason, You made such a compelling argument I had to reply. The SCCA has in it some of the smartest and talented people I have ever met. It also has some of the most selfish people I have ever met. I am being looked at as a person who is not a team player? I want to make it more fair for people that don't want to upgrade their cars. I think I will have to mark it up to different priorities. My priority is to that idealistic fairness that includes everyone who can drive. Other people want to make the club as exclusive as possible. That is what I really think of stock rules, because it's more expensive than it has to be. I have not met anyone that could give me a good reason to think otherwise. I think it is holding us back as a club, nationally and regionally. Instead of people tearing me down for trying to help. I was expecting a little more open mindedness. I guess I overestimated the unselfishness of some people. I am truly disappointed. It is true that I worded the first few post to get a rise out of some people. However, what happened when I showed that there was logic and facts backing my theories. I was hoping for posts like Jason, Todd, and Bill's. I will absolutely agree that the SMS pax was crazy. I backed up my reasoning with facts. I understand that it is very difficult to adjust that class because of the rules. Very difficult is not impossible. I thought that getting people our smartest people thinking about the effect of the index, it would lead to a result that would better the club and it's events. I am only concerned with this region and it's competitors. Todd and Jason are right. We should never put a rule in place keeping people from competing in larger events. That was a bad idea. It was an angle I missed. But, the people that buy race tires are mostly attending national type events. Therefore, they are going to the biggest events in the area. They don't tend to be as loyal to regional events. There is another theory that no one picked up on. Why would the region cater to the people that are only loyal to the larger events. If you are in a city of 600,000 people, your more likely to have bigger events. Are we really going to be able to compare to an event in indy or detroit? I am trying to help create a stronger region. We put on Street Survivals and other region events. When we have more members our events will get better. We had a great event at the coliseum. There is a lot of info you can learn from the numbers of our entries. For example, did you know that there were just as many outside region members as fort wayne region members at the coliseum event? A region's pax should represent it’s own potential. That is why the adjuster I thought of would work. Maybe not as well for sms as the stock classes. It has great potential. The more difficult the problem the more rewarding the solution.
wrheadle
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16 Sep 2008 07:15 AM
chriskrumnow wrote:
A region's pax should represent it’s own potential.

Chris-

In my opinion, the whole purpose of a PAX is to make the best possible estimate of relative performance of the classes so that from one event to the next, one site to the next, the comparison is fair. This is not a regional thing, it is a national thing. All of those folks who came from out of town to the coliseum event would want to see the "real" PAX when the event was over so that they know how they did. The "regional" PAX, as you put it, would be irrelevant to them.

There is still one question that you have not answered for me. What exactly is your definition of fair? If you want every person to have an equal chance to win, independent of their ability to drive, ability to adjust their car's chassis, ability to remember the course and the little details that the course designer put in to fool them, then any plan is doomed to failure because you will drive away the best due to the "unfairness" of the scheme. If you want to create classes with lower levels of preparation for those coming in off of the street, then I applaud you, but I don't think that you grasp the challenge that you have bitten off.

How do you classify the performance potential of unmodified cars? It certainly isn't the same set-up as the stock rules as they exist today because those classes are grouped based on maximum allowed modification performanc potential and has been tweaked over the last XX years as tires and technology change.

For example: What is the relative performance of a Lincoln Mark VIII and a Mustang of the same vintage? Both are F Stock cars last I looked. Should be the same right, they are both in F Stock? One has nice stiff (relatively) shocks and the other is tuned such that the driver barely knows the road exists. One has realitvely wide, low aspect ratio tires, the other as narrow, high aspect ratio tires. Both of these will have a major impact on autocross performance. Now that we know they are different, how much different? How much performance potential do they have relative to their fully prepped stock class counterparts? How do you know if the car has never been driven by a nationally comeptitive driver in its unprepared condition? How do you class a car that you have never seen at an event before?

A noble effort you seem to be undertaking, for sure. But more than one man (or even club) can "fair"ly execute I am afraid.

Last thing: Don't change the rules in the middle of the year. If you do this, I will be forced to go back and repax every event based on where cars would have run as a number of them would jump classes. That, after all, would be the "fair" thing to do if someone has a conflict at the end of the year and cannot take advantage of the new indexes.

Bill

smitch
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16 Sep 2008 05:15 PM

Let me be first to say that this is a stupid idea.

People are being nice and trying to reason with you Chris. I'm telling you straight, its simply a bad idea.

I'll be first to tell you that my car is not prepped to be competitive in street modified classes. I built my car for me and not to win autox's (although I enjoy winning dont get me wrong). I somehow feel that some of this may have come from me missing some of the autoxs this year. It could be my conceited way of thinking and maybe Im totally wrong, but since I was named directly I roll with it.

I have missed events this year for several reasons none of them are because I was getting beat on PAX. The people that beat me deserved to be where they placed. If changing the PAX score has anything to do with Chuck cleaning house it would still equal an equally bad idea. Chuck is fast and has more passion for autox than anyone I've ever met. I still cant stand him, but to be punished for building a well prepped car, being a good driver and changing the pax so others will win just doesn't make sense.

Thanks, Chris Smith

Reasons for my absence this year.....

First and for most, the white car has been down since last year,

Cant stand the bickering between club members, I've tried to stay neutral and lay low

Work third shift and go in Sunday nights

I've been Rallyxing lately

FTW_FRC
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16 Sep 2008 08:19 PM

As a relative n00b to this club. I have to add my $.02.

I came back into this sport after almost 20yrs being away. I did not expect to be competitive with anybody.

Different car. Different class.

I placed pretty much where I expected to be in my first year here. Towards the bottom.

Does this bother me? NO. I need seat time to improve with this car. I expected that.

Would I want to be catered to, pampered, because I am new "again" to this sport? NO.

If I did care about PAX, I would race in the novice class. That's what it is there for.

If the whole idea of this street tire classification is to attract new members. Fine. I applaud your efforts.

This is the wrong way to go about it.

As others have mentioned, and BTW done for me. Thank you all. [Y]

Lets help the new people all we can.

CoDrivers. Instructors. Mentors.

In your original post. You made just about every mistake that you could make with a change like this. What were you thinking? That we would just roll over and take this? No discussion? No presentation to the board? WTH?

Chris K: Quote/ Here are the new rules. Effective immediately. Live with it. /Quote

If your intention was to stir the pot. Sir, you have definitely done that. [N]

mavisky
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17 Sep 2008 11:13 AM

I just want to say that dropping the SMS pax below the STU pax is a horrendous idea. I was intending to run a Mustang in STU at the last event, but I'll be running SMS if that's the case.

As everyone knows I've run SM or SMS since day 1 and I've never once won an event. Yet I continue to show up every year to almost every event because I go out there knowing full well that my car is not the best prepared for the types of courses we run and the competition I have. I know this full well and yet continue to build my car (for now).

Having switched this year to a car that is much more competitive on the PAX I can honestly say that while fun it doesn't mean I'll be selling my car just to reign champion over PAX. I have fun coming out and beating on either my own car or KB's. Where I finish is relative. I wouldn't ever expect to beat him in our own cars and frankly I don't want you butting in and changing the numbers to make sure I do. If I go up against a better driver, in a better car for our individual classes, who is running clean runs, I want him to beat me. He deserves to.

No offense to you in particular Chris, but I'm getting sick and GD tired of this world trying to make everyone a winner. Sometimes in life you lose, and sometimes you'll keep losing until you get your sh*t together and make your self competitive. If that's buying a new car, prepping it better, or becoming a better driver that's up to them to figure out. This isn't kindergarten science fair, not everyone goes home with a shiny ribbon and a pat on the back. As C.Smith mentioned, there really aren't any highly competitive cars in SMS locally, by that I mean none of us could slap a set of slicks on ours and run SM at even a regional event and expect to come out on top. Instead the class is what it is, it's a catch all for those people who've built all around street cars but due to the SCCA's rigid classification get bumped into SM against cars on slicks, not that we ever have anyone in that class really anyways anymore.

Finally, changing the PAX midseason is the most F'ed up thing I've ever heard.

OneEyeMedia
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17 Sep 2008 11:29 AM

[Y]

Well put Kyle!

(passing you a [Beer] )

mavisky
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17 Sep 2008 12:07 PM

I'd also like to add that since SMS isn't a national level class anyways and the suspension setup would be altered for running slicks, anyone building a car to the limits of the rules of SMS would be an absolute retard anyways.Why spend the money it takes to be competitive at that level all for a non-nationally recognized class. If they have the money to build a car to the upper limits of the SM rulebook they probably aren't driving it to work everyday and therefore wouldn't even be out any money as they'd probably have a set of wet and dry tires for the event anyways and get there on a trailer.

If anything you should be appealing SCCA to look into a classing structure more similar to NASA's TT setup where everyone is assigned a base class and takes penalties for individual modifications as opposed to some obscure classing structure in which a carbon fiber hood on a stock car pits the owner against gutted, blown, and slicked M3's and hyperactive Evo's and Sti's on 285's with enough traction to rip your face off. As you said yourself changing the pax of the last 3 years would've possibly affected less than a handful of races anyways and with the decline in SMS cars I don't see the PAX adjustment even being that helpufl.

chriskrumnow
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17 Sep 2008 12:28 PM

You guys might not realize this, but...this something like what Grayden used to do. I wish people would read an entire thread before posting a reply. I have already said I am not changing the SMS pax. I still intend to put in the street tire stock classes. There is no point in making up a class that has no chance of winning. Look at it this way. The national pax is created by driver and car alike. It is imposible to seperate them. Why are we using national cars and drivers to crown a regional driver of the year? Because it's the way we always did it? I've just informed you that it's not.

I am not giving everyone a ribbon. I am giving the class an equal chance at winning. The solo champion would not have changed with the new indexes and rules I have created. They just don't win by as much.

Thanks for not attacking me personallyl. I am trying to do something good for the club. I'm trying to equal out the finacial advantage. We are not preofessionals. I appreciate the passion you have. I am not doing this for myself. This is nothing personal. Do the math and then we can debate the rules that will allow SMS to compete. The challenge is to keep the SMS class pure. Keeping people from jumping into the pax with nationally competitive cars would destroy the pax is the really difficult part.

The debate of street tire in stock classes and beyond is an ongoing one. The regional entries benefit more by the regions controling the pax. I happen to agree with this philosophy. This gives the regions room to adjust the pax to their drivers. By the way Al Chan told me that. That is why I put so much time into figuring this out. I know the pax for SMS is a shock. Do you think it was easy going back through over 20 events and getting the one pax. Could anyone else have gone through the past 2 years of events to find the adjustment for the street tire pax, you have to know what tires each person is driving on. That pax as well would have only changed the outcome of one event. These classes will not change the overall champion. These indexes would only change 2 events out of the past 3 years. It is not handing anyone a victory. Do the math.

I can use the same method to every class if needed.

mavisky
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17 Sep 2008 12:56 PM
chriskrumnow wrote:

Why are we using national cars and drivers to crown a regional driver of the year? Because it's the way we always did it? I've just informed you that it's not.

No Chris, the pax is made up assuming well prepped cars and equal drivers. The idea is that if you put the best driver in each class in the best car from each class they should be able to run even times. Now if you put an average driver from each class into the same cars, they should still be able run similar times. Not as fast as the fast guys, but consistent across the lines. Now if you put average drivers in average cars it should still work, but at this point you've introduced so many variables that no amount of math will ever be able to make up for the lack of preparation of each vehicle or the experience of the driver. Remember a fast driver in a slow car will almost always be faster than a slow driver in a fast car.

[quote]Thanks for not attacking me personallyl. I am trying to do something good for the club. I'm trying to equal out the finacial advantage. We are not preofessionals.

No we're not all financially equal, and once again no amount of math will fix that. Look at the guys who spend $5000 on a set of custom shocks vs. the guy who goes out and buys a set of ebay coilovers. They're both in the same class, but guess who's gonna be faster. Hell you can't even keep money out of the equation in spec classes like Spec Miata. On one hand you've got a guy who can rebuild his motor after every race, and replace the tires and brakes after every heat, on the other you've got a guy who's running his 4th event in a row on the same tires and drug the car there on a rented two wheel dolly.

[quote] I appreciate the passion you have. I am not doing this for myself. This is nothing personal. Do the math and then we can debate the rules that will allow SMS to compete. The challenge is to keep the SMS class pure. Keeping people from jumping into the pax with nationally competitive cars would destroy the pax is the really difficult part.

The opportunity to run and learn from someone who is nationally competitive should be a blessing to those drivers who are racing against that person. It doesn't mean we should ban/limit/or otherwise restrict them for their abilities. I also think that having our own set of PAX numbers will actually serve as a deterrent to other regions since they won't know what pax they'll even be racing on before showing up.

[quote]The debate of street tire in stock classes and beyond is an ongoing one. The regional entries benefit more by the regions controling the pax. I happen to agree with this philosophy. This gives the regions room to adjust the pax to their drivers. By the way Al Chan told me that. That is why I put so much time into figuring this out. I know the pax for SMS is a shock. Do you think it was easy going back through over 20 events and getting the one pax. Could anyone else have gone through the past 2 years of events to find the adjustment for the street tire pax, you have to know what tires each person is driving on. That pax as well would have only changed the outcome of one event. These classes will not change the overall champion. These indexes would only change 2 events out of the past 3 years. It is not handing anyone a victory. Do the math.

I can use the same method to every class if needed.

Chris, this is what I hate about the SCCA and why I'm not a member this year. Bottom line there are just too many friggin classes. I've said it before and I'll scream it til I'm deaf. More classes just divides the group and create more division amongst the member base and I'm never a fan of that. At nationals it's one thing, but on the regional level where we only have 2 or 3 people in some of these classes it mean fewer people competing directly with fewer people.

chriskrumnow
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17 Sep 2008 01:54 PM

Let's forget about SMS for a sec.I completely agree that the classing is goofy and counter productive. Look at the differeence between bs and cs or ds and gs for example. On the index they are 1 and 2 thousanths apart. I know of one person who said they could redo things for 5 classes. I personally think that would be a great thing. It's not going to happen for the same reason cs and gs have been allowed to get so close to bs and ds. Money. We can't complete fix things. That is imposible. We can make it work better for our region. There are only 2 people that fun in stock class with race tires. Jerry and Mellissa. The rest run street tires. So the national classes are the wasteful classes. Let's compare apple to apples. That's all I'm saying. We can post the pax on myutoevents.com and on the website for the out of town people, if we could get someone to do the website. There is no rule that says we can't produce our own classes and rules. It's actually encouaged. We are a smaller region. Our region index can reflect our drivers. If people want to come from other areas to run at the coliseum, it won't create a problem with the region's driver of the year results. They simplly aren't regional drivers. If we have to make up classes that are higher attended than the national classes...like SMS. It is our duty to create them.

Let's use Steve as an example. What if the CRX went down. Would he be able to compete against Mike in AS? They are pretty close in driving skill, wih an Steve's advantage. They both have the S2000. Mike on race rubber, Steve on street tires. Who wins? The stock street tire index would have Steve winning, right? That is the real test of the index.

We are getting caught up in the craziness. The idea is sound. Making up the class is only half of it. If the winner of the class still has no chance at winning an event it's worthless. It's like throwing a quarter at a homeless guy. That was my sorry attempt at a joke.

OneEyeMedia
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17 Sep 2008 02:06 PM

And I got beat up for my Fort Wayne SCCA Solo Club SURVEY [8-)]

O6XRS
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17 Sep 2008 04:11 PM
chriskrumnow wrote:

There are only 2 people that fun in stock class with race tires. Jerry and Mellissa.

Its spelled Melissa! 1 L!!!! Dangit![:@]

wrheadle
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17 Sep 2008 09:44 PM

O6XRS wrote:
Its spelled Melissa! 1 L!!!! Dangit![:@]

Sorry, missed that. How do you really feel Melissa 1 L?[H]

sts38
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17 Sep 2008 11:58 PM

Unless you have an extra 80 grand or so laying around, I don't think it's logical to think anyone will be building a Nationally competitive SM car to drive at the regional level.

Check this out.....loaded with carbon fiber and a titanium header....spending thousands and thousands just to gain a tenth.....also runs in XPrepared.

I wish I would have taken a front view picture of this car....it's totally SICK!.....and yes....it's running R compounds!


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OneEyeMedia
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18 Sep 2008 06:22 AM

stupid fast to...

He comes out to the winged warrior events as well - just crazy!

OO

o

\__/

SpeedTeacher
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18 Sep 2008 05:21 PM
sts38 wrote:

Unless you have an extra 80 grand or so laying around, I don't think it's logical to think anyone will be building a Nationally competitive SM car to drive at the regional level.

Check this out.....loaded with carbon fiber and a titanium header....spending thousands and thousands just to gain a tenth.....also runs in XPrepared.

I wish I would have taken a front view picture of this car....it's totally SICK!.....and yes....it's running R compounds!


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FYI, I was only two seconds behind this car on a 58 second course at Winged Warrior on my street tires. I felt pretty good about that!! He was on race tires.

Todd J.




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