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Last Post 06 Oct 2009 07:48 AM by  hancheyb
Vorshlag Motorsports Evo X MR Build (STU, TTB, One Lap?)
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Fair
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14 Jul 2009 08:08 AM
Since I just added a post on the EVO's autocross wheels I'd figure I'd post an update on the EVO's track wheel & tire setup in detail. This is what Brian is running at NASA TT events, HPDEs, and for the time being, as the street tire setup.

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[I]Wheel is 21.4 lbs. Wheel + 265/35/18 Yokohama ADVAN AD07 is 48.5 lbs. The intricate spokes are hard to keep clean.[/I]

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[I]This Enkei is an NT03+M, 18x10.5" wide, ET30 and super strong[/I]

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[I]This package fits the front and rear of an EVO X with no spacer and only light fender rolling in rear. 285mm tires might require a bit more rolling out back[/I]

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[I]Shot from underneath the front with the track wheels & tires mounted[/I]

These AD07 tires are wearing extremely well and keep knocking down incredible lap times, race after race. They've also been good street tires and have done autocross duty for the past few months, while we awaited the new AD08 to arrive. I consider the older AD07 to [I]still [/I]be a competitive tire for Street Touring and TT events.
Fair
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28 Jul 2009 01:54 PM

Here's the [B]updates from the last week with the EVO[/B]:

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Pictures from last weekend's [URL="http://www.texastimetrials.com/"]Texas Time Trials[/URL] event: [url]http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/9060410_Fotkg[/url]

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[I]those 3-piece CCWs on our V8 BMW are anchors[/I]

In-car video from this Time Trial event (in the 490 whp BMW):
[URL="http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/4882794_PPm2C#603864839_BndPW-A-LB"]SCCAForums Image[/URL]

This event on Saturday was a blast. We'll edit the video from the EVO and post it up next. As crazy as the V8 car looks in the video above the EVO was only 3 seconds a lap slower, on street tires. It was SO much easier to drive than the BMW on 4-year old R compounds. TTT president David and co-driver Gerry set-up two courses... one was a road course with timers and the other an autocross. We played with the setup on the EVO off and on all day (as well as several other cars), and worked the new engine in the BMW for many laps. Trying to de-bug little things on this car before Brian runs it at Texas World Speedway (NASA TT) next weekend, while Amy and I take the EVO up to Vail for the National Tour (a 15 hour tow, yuck). If you are in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and have done some autocrossing or HPDE events before, check the [URL="http://www.texastimetrials.com/"]Texas Time Trials[/URL] schedule and come join them for an event. $40 for as many runs as you can stand in the 4-5 hours of your run group, no corner working, free hot lunch, and tons of fun!

Since one full day in 108°F Texas heat wasn't enough, Amy and I ran the EVO at an Equipe Rapide autocross on Sunday.

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[I]It was hot so we spent the [B]4 hours in grid [/B]under our pop-up tent![/I]

Pictures from ER's Challenge Cup #5 Autocross: [url]http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/9060415_zWVVV[/url]

The new 1000#/in rear springs (we had 800's, switched to 900's early last week, then to 1000's later in the week) really helped the car rotate better and kept the car flatter in corners. Still playing with shock and bar settings with these new spring rates, but the car rides surprisingly smooth on the street with these crazy rates.

Results: [url]http://www.autocross.com/er/equiperapide/modules/content/index.php?id=64[/url]

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Left: tight slalom # 3. Right: Tight turn-around # 2

I had STU covered until Andy Hollis showed up. Who is this strange man from Austin??? [;)] The ST Hondas are so damned light, and all 3 of the competitive Texas area Civics jumped classes to run in STU. Interlopers! The tight and tiny 33 second course had no place that the AWD turbo cars could use their power advantages, so Andy's sub-1900 pound Civic put .3 sec on me in the big EVO, pushing me to 2nd place on the 4th run (I still had him in 3, heh!). Amy was another .5 behind in 4th, with another Civic in between her and me (she was also edged out on the 4th run). At least she won their Women's "RapidPax" shootout, and $40 cash money. At ER events if you pay $10 extra you get 2 extra runs which are judged in their "RapidPax" results, with cash payouts. I choked in the RP runs and went slower, bah.

The course was tiny - literally 2 big 180° turns, 3 tight slaloms, and two 90° turns. The start was severely "kinked" and there was nowhere to use any of the EVO's power. I hate those types of courses... its all about grip, grip, grip. They had over 40 Formula SAE competitors at the event so they kept the course small to work better with their itty bitty cars and time constraints. Anyway, this sized course is typical of events at this small concrete site (Pennington Field), but I still always b!tch about it. [:D]

3 of my 4 timed runs were in the same tenth, but I just watched the runs on video and there were still some mistakes, so I'm sure I left some time out there. It was so different with 200# more rear rate that we had to re-learn driving slaloms again.

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Brian has been playing with a new Race Technologies "Dash 3" unit and a CAN-BUS cable, getting the Mitsubishi ECM to talk to the DL1 data logger. There's pages of real time data shown on the DASH3 display reading right from the OBDII data stream... tachometer signal, TPS, and lots more. Pretty cool little unit. This will let us datalog lots more stuff and put it on the video overlays.

OK, we'll update again after the SCCA National Tour in Vail next weekend!

Andy Hollis
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28 Jul 2009 03:37 PM
Fair wrote:


I had STU covered until Andy Hollis showed up. Who is this strange man from Austin??? [;)]

I was just passing through and saw all these cars running around a parking lot, so I figured I'd stop in. [:D]

[quote]

The ST Hondas are so damned light, and all 3 of the competitive Texas area Civics jumped classes to run in STU. Interlopers!

I was told by the locals that it was "the thing to do" and that you liked having more competition. So I did what all the cool kids were doing... [H]

[quote]

The tight and tiny 33 second course had no place that the AWD turbo cars could use their power advantages,

Maybe. From the start to the first sweeper, and from that one to the second, I was power-saturated (i.e. not enough motor). That was where you needed to play your power/traction advantage. I'll grant you the two slaloms favored the Civic, and the back section up the hill was probably a wash.

[quote]

...so Andy's sub-1900 pound Civic put .3 sec on me in the big EVO, pushing me to 2nd place on the 4th run (I still had him in 3, heh!).

Sub-2000, not sub-1900.

And, you only had me when I DNF'd my first run due to air in the brake lines (I just replaced both front calipers this week and obviously did not get them completely bled). From the second run on, I led. You never beat that 33.904. Close, but no cigar. [:P]

'Street Touring Ultra (Tire)' - Total Entries: 9 Trophies: 3 Times


Total
1T
3 ANDY HOLLIS CIVIC 37.346+dnf 33.904 34.350 33.631 33.631









-










2T
195 TERRY FAIR 08 MISTUBISHI EVO X MR 33.971+3 34.419 33.957 33.915+1 33.957









0.326

If it makes you feel any better, the 33.6 (and subsequent pair of 33.7's) came when I put on the good front tires. That 33.9 was on tires that had the tread peeling off of them (see below). [:O]

All kidding aside, I had fun. Thanks for being a good sport. [Beer][Y]



Fair
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28 Jul 2009 03:44 PM

Andy Hollis wrote:
If it makes you feel any better, the 33.6 (and subsequent pair of 33.7's) came when I put on the good front tires. That 33.9 was on tires that had the tread peeling off of them (see below).

Aww, those are slicks. Protest! [:'(]

Hehehe... thanks for driving up to DFW for this event - knowing you were entered was the main reason we went, and seeing our times vs yours has us going back to find more in the car.

I hope we can keep up with the pace of STU at Vail... 16 drivers will be there gunning for the win.

Fair
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06 Aug 2009 09:43 PM
[B][U]Vail Valley National Tour update - the battle of scrub:[/U][/B] Amy and I went to the Vail Valley National Tour with the EVO last weekend. We got back on Tuesday but have been playing catch up all week, so I'm just now adding our event report. It was a tow from hell getting there... 16 hours straight thru, after working a full day. Towing over several mountains including an 11,000 foot high pass wasn't fun in our truck, either. We got there Friday morning at 7:30 am, and Amy was entered in the EVO school at 8:30 am. So we grabbed an hour of sleep, our only rest for 2 days, and spent the next 3 days testing and racing.

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Weather couldn't have been better - it sure beat the 100°F heat we had in Texas! Beautiful mountain views surrounded the Eagle Airport site as well. We had been battling some serious understeer the past several weeks, which I will touch on in a bit. Amy got a lot of test runs during the Evo school, but I think she could be teaching at these things by now (she has instructed at several driving schools in the past and has more wins at Nats than many of her former Evo teachers), but she says "it never hurts to get an outside perspective" and she got a good number of laps in before a freak downpour at 11 am. It dried quickly and (co-driver) John Scheier and I started taking laps at around 2 pm. The car was pushing as badly as ever, so we quickly headed for the pits and made some big changes between the many test n tune runs we made for the next several hours.

We swapped rear swaybars (from a Cobb hollow to a Works solid), adjusted all of the shocks, changed the front camber by a full degree, tweaked the front toe, and made laps in between changes. Nothing helped. We could get the turn-in right but as soon as the front wheels turned more than a few degrees the front end would wash out. The tires were howling, and we had no front end grip. Front tires were SO hot, rears were dead cold. Frustrating! Slaloms felt OK but the many 180 degree turn-arounds we had to drive through all weekend on the narrow airstrip courses were murder. Losing so much time in the big turns!

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We've been playing with all sorts of adjustments on the car of late to try to re-discover some seriously missing front end grip. Ever since we switched from the 265mm AD07s we've been fighting a serious push, but the lack of performance wasn't as apparent at higher speed events (time trials/HPDE) nor at local autocrosses, where we still seemed to be doing well overall (but slowly slipping back in PAX). Too many spring rate changes to count, ending up with 700# fronts and 1000# rears, which seem a bit extreme because they are. On top of this push, the formerly flawless SST S-Sport automatic shifting mode was acting funny at this event for the first time ever, probably due to the 7000 foot elevation of the site? It needed coaxing to hold a gear and not upshift at odd times. Never done this to us before, so this was a mystery. We went to full manual shifting on some runs.

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[I]285 Yokohamas and 18x10s on an E36 M3!? Mayfield was FAST[/I]

At this Tour event we had a lot more competition (19 cars in STU!) and it was fairly obvious that the car was off the pace with all 3 of it's drivers. It wasn't until we got back that one of the obvious deficiencies was found - tire pressure. [B]Look at this picture:[/B]

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That outside front tire looks like it is about to come off the rim. We were running the sub 30 psi pressures that had worked so well on the wider 265mm AD07s. We'd noticed odd tire wear on the 245s lately though - it as wearing the insides more then the outsides up front. WTF? There was something else going on that was masking the lack of tire pressure that is so obvious from these pictures. We're running 40 psi up front on future testing, starting today. 3700 pounds with fuel and driver is too much for 29 psi. It may have worked on the 265s, but not on these 245s. We also noticed a lack of dynamic camber in higher angle turns, not readily apparent until you study multi-sequence pictures from the same turn. It needed more caster.

Anyway, we fought the car all weekend, barely maintaining our mid-pack finishes in this field of STU heavy hitters (driving our butts off to get 10th an 13th places in Open). Amy still won STU-L somehow, but she was struggling more than normal to stay in front. She had a "mystery cone" assigned to her fastest Saturday run that knocked a cool second off her next best time (I watched that run from start to finish - it was bogus) which made it too close for comfort. We tried all manner of changes all weekend, even adding as much as 1/2" of toe out in the rear to try to get this thing to rotate. Nothing made a difference, which just didn't make sense. Something else was fundamentally wrong. We finished our runs, taking our licks, then packed it up for an 18 hour tow back to Dallas (record traffic jam at the Eisenhower tunnel made for an extra 2 hours getting from Vail to Denver - yay!)

On our way home we were scratching our heads, looking for answers. The video and data showed what we already knew - there was no front end grip. We had plenty of static camber and tested there with the the extremes. Hanchey called another engineer/racer friend of ours (Matteucci) and they keyed in on the many changes we've made to the car this year. We went from 4200s to 5200s (to test both AST strut designs), changed spring rates many times, played with various camber and toe settings, multiple swaybars, and more importantly used 3 different sets of wheels and 4 sets of tires in 2 widths. We also went back and forth from track to autocross setups, sometimes week after week. The problems seemed to follow the 245mm tires, and more specifically the 18x10" Enkei front wheels we've settled on lately.

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[I]Kazera 18x9.5" wheels are 3 pounds heavier, but reduce front track width by a full 2", reducing scrub![/I]

Remember from earlier posts in this thread that the Enkei RPF1's we have on the front (6.7" backspace) had even less offset than the 18x10.5" NT03's we've been running for track events, and these RPF1s also needed 15mm of spacer to clear the calipers. The black CCWs on the back had more backspace as well (7") but couldn't clear the 14" front brakes with any amount of spacer. Well this weird offset issue with the front wheels was causing a terrible scrub condition, moving the centerline of the tire further away from the Kingpin angle defined scrub radius. I rechecked the toe at the event and noticed the front track width was alarming wide... nearly 74 inches! By contrast our old STU car, an E36 M3 with 18x10" wheels, has only a 67" front track width. Even our V8 powered E36 race car with 315mm tires has only a 72" track width! WTF?

There are ways to improve weird kingpin angle/scrub issues, namely adding more positive caster. We already had a much improved over stock +5.6° of caster, but our three previous BMW racecars have always been able to achieve +7 to +9 degrees of caster, with the steering feel and dynamic camber that were much better than what you typically see on the AWD cars. They come with much more caster to start with, and we improve on that with our plates. So the first thing I did when we got back from Vail was to make a new High Caster version of our camber-caster plates. We had also just made a short production run of new HC1 plates for the GD Subaru and EVO 5-9, some of which are already on testers' cars. This EVO X version made this week was hand built and adds .400" of more caster offset, which should add another degree and a half of caster, getting us closer to +7° (we will verify with a laser alignment soon).

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We also dumped the RPF1s and CCW wheels this week, as they just are not the right fit for this car at all (CCWs are sold, the two RPF1s are for sale). The 10.5" wide NT03s are too wide for the little 245s we're restricted to for STU class, so we went looking for an 18x9.5" ET30 offset wheel... and found them from one of our employees! Stuart here at Vorshlag had a (discontinued) set of Kazera 18x9.5" ET30 wheels from an S197 chassis Mustang and they fit the Evo nearly perfectly. We're using a 5mm spacer in front (to clear the tender spring we need to run for use with a test sensor - a shock pot) and no spacer in back. The width change alone knocks out a full inch of track width plus losing a total of 20mm of spacer width is another inch less track/scrub... so track width in front is a full 2" narrower now. This is a HUGE change, and a GOOD thing when you are trying to slalom around cones. Every inch removed from track width can make significant time improvements in autocrossing.

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These wheels aren't the lightest thing we've ever run (21 pounds) but they clear the brakes better than anything other than the NT03s, and due to the proper backspacing they fix much of our scrub problems. The added caster from the new plates was obvious on our first test drive, with improved steering feel and the most important improvement - the car rotates now! I could saw the wheel and break the rear tires loose at speed, which is so much better than before. No more howling front tires, as the scrub problems in front seem to be fixed with the new wheels, and the increased tire pressures feel better as well.

So now we're sort of back to the drawing board on the rest of our Autocross setup... we've started by resetting the adjustable swaybars on both ends, changed camber again (from -4 to -3°), and have to settle in on the spring rates now that we have the other fundamental issues improved (but it feels pretty damn good with 700/1000 - corners flat!). This scrub issue has probably been holding back performance for a couple of months. Good grief - we've only got a few weeks until Nationals, too. Today Brian also swapped back to the RacingBrake pads after he opened up the struts and put them back on with the new plates. This moved the car away from the ultra-hard race compound HTC-70 Hawk pads in front, as they take too much time to get up to working temperature. Great for the track but not so good on your first autocross run (we can't just "drag he brakes coming to the start line" due to the SST trans, either).

We've already scheduled two more test events in the next 3 weeks, so we've got some work ahead of us. If we can regain some of the performance we had earlier this year we think the STU competitiveness will return. To top off the week we have also had to pull the trans from our V8 powered BMW, as the [URL="http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5479&page=9"]input shaft decided to leave the bellhousing at 155 mph at TWS last weekend[/URL]. Brian was racing it at a NASA Time Trial... good times.

Tune in for more test results soon...
Fair
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07 Aug 2009 12:06 PM
Here's the in-car video from the Vail Valley Tour. This is my 3rd run from Day 2, and the time was almost exactly what John ran in the same car. Warning - it does not sound good, as the front tires are really howling:

[URL="http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/4882794_PPm2C#613318517_xGfNc-A-LB"]SCCAForums Image
click for video[/URL]

Stuart is out test driving the Evo on one of our secret test locations, but so far Brian and I both feel like its 100% better. SCCA practice next weekend and TAMSCC practice the week after will shows us what we need to see.
Fair
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17 Aug 2009 08:52 AM
Amy and I spent most of Saturday at an SCCA practice event, testing new settings, alignment, tire pressures, and new parts. Pennington Field's high grip concrete is a great test site, even if not that big. Brian came out for a few hours to help and we all drove the car in several iterations. We had some other known drivers there to compare to, namely Chris Ledbetter's STX prepped E36 and Andy Hollis' ST prepped Civic (Andy took an unusual number of runs, prepping not only for Nationals but also doing a test for an upcoming magazine article).

There was a timed ~23 second practice course that we could take 1-2 laps on at a time and we tested a lot of theories and setup changes, finding 1 full second from tuning by day's end. The skidpad was also helpful when coupled with our pyrometer tests, which showed us that the low camber (-2.5°) setup we had aligned to last week needed another degree of camber after all. The increased tire pressures helped considerably as well, going from the 29-30 psi range to 40-45 psi up front by days end. Big car, little tire, needs more pressure.

We had one more test to try but the event was shut down abruptly at 3 pm, so we left that setup and packed up the car/trailer/truck and headed back home until Sunday, when the competition event would be held at the same site.

[B]Results[/B]: [URL="https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/files/TRSCCA/event6_pax.htm"]PAX[/URL] - [URL="https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/files/TRSCCA/event6_fin.htm"]Final[/URL] - [URL="https://axwaresystems.com/axorm/files/TRSCCA/event6_raw.htm"]Raw (overall)[/URL]

Andy Hollis and the other fast ST Civics have made a habit of bumping up to STU at our Regionals as they have a good shot of beating the "Faster" STU cars on this smaller site's tighter layouts. On Sunday's event I started out with that last, untested change from Saturday, which proved to not be beneficial. My first run was 1 second slower than 2 of the faster STU drivers, so I quickly changed back to the last, proven setup. I made changes after almost every run yet again, but kept finding time. In the end my times were bested by 3 other STU drivers... Andy Hollis had me by .6 sec and Jason McCall in an '08 STI (that we've done a lot of work on) and Ken Orgeron's E46 M3 both had me by a little over .1 sec (they were .005 sec apart). As I was changing things between each run this made for more of a test event than a competition, and by my 4th run I felt like the car was handling pretty well, without looking at the car from outside or seeing data.

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[I]The front end looks higher because it is... we were testing another theory that didn't hold water. Its going back down by 1/2"[/I]

Amy ran in in the last Heat of the day (temps were hovering around 99°F by that time), running in the local PAXed Womens class and starting with the setup I finished with. Her first run started out quicker than mine did but while watching her on course I saw some things going on in the front end and changed the rebound yet again, and she kept improving her times throughout the heat. By her 4th and final run she had bested my time by .01 sec and won her class by 1 sec, so she was happy.

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[I]Then Amy skirted me by a fraction of a second...[/I]

We've come to realize that this 3700 pound car (with driver and fuel) is probably limited more by the 245mm section width than most other competitive STU cars, none of which are this heavy. The trick is to get the car to the limit of the tires' adhesion (a slight push in steady-state) and then keep it there, or it moves into a loud and ugly push. It doesn't feel fast around sweepers and at this overall weight it may never be. The SST transmission did work flawlessly in S-Sport auto mode at this site for both days, so the odd shifting issues we saw at Vail had to be altitude related, we think.

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[I]The unusual Figure 8 course layout made for lots of loooong sweepers.[/I]

In the end we PAXed well enough (15th and 16th out of 126) but its not where we like to be right before Nationals. The grip was good (1.2g lateral and 1.13 under braking) so basics are there. As you can see above the course layout was laid out with a LARGE emphasis on long sweeping turns, having a huge figure 8 dominating the course design. There wasn't much room to accelerate as it looks, either, as there was a transition at the start of one of the long stretches in the "X" and a transition at the end of the other. This emphasis on sweeps does not exactly play to the 3500 pound EVO's strengths, which are: braking, acceleration, large speed changes (where we'd see lots of up/down shifting) and transitions. Not to take anything away from their driving, but the cars that outpaced us in STU were a good bit lighter (Civic is ~1960, STi is ~3150) and/or had much wider tires (E46 M3). Excuses - I've got a million of em! ;)

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[I]Hollis was on fire and PAXed 4th[/I]

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[I]Ken O was fast in his STU prepped E46 M3 on D-Force 18x10s & 275mm tires[/I]

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[I]Paul and Jason are getting quick in the 08 STi on ASTs[/I]

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[I]Todd M's Civic was one of the ones that didn't beat us...:P[/I]

Anyway, we don't think these Pennington courses are indicative of what we'll see at Nationals, from what we've heard from the course previews by Howard Duncan. Our setup has changed drastically from the Vail Tour 2 weeks ago and hopefully the Lincoln site will play to this car's strengths... and hopefully Amy and I can drive well enough to show the car's performance. We'll be taking lots of laps at the Nationals Practice Course looking for the right setup.

Until next time...
Andy Hollis
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts:6197


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17 Aug 2009 10:35 AM

Fair wrote:

Andy Hollis and the other fast ST Civics have made a habit of bumping up to STU at our Regionals as they have a good shot of beating the "Faster" STU cars on this smaller site's tighter layouts....


Anyway, we don't think these Pennington courses are indicative of what we'll see at Nationals, from what we've heard from the course previews by Howard Duncan. Our setup has changed drastically from the Vail Tour 2 weeks ago and hopefully the Lincoln site will play to this car's strengths...

Until next time...

Come down to A&M on August 29th, if you'd like some revenge. [H]

Big "manly" course on concrete...plus assorted tuning exercises.

--Andy

hancheyb
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Posts:123


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06 Oct 2009 07:48 AM

I figured I'd provide an update for the Evo. Now that the season is winding down, the Evo will be used as a test platform for new products, product revisions, and general street and track testing. I'll be publishing our results on the AST [URL="http://ast-usa.blogspot.com/"]blog[/URL] (third entry down) hopefully on a monthly basis. My first addition is [URL="http://www.ast-usa.com/resources/Test%20Vehicle%20Update%20Oct2009.pdf"]here[/URL] and includes a link to one of the faster laps that day.

These results are from the NASA event at Eagle's Canyon last weekend. I ran TTA. NASA TX is a little slow on the results, but I think I won for the day. Hard to say, but I was fastest and then it started raining so I'm pretty sure the time wasn't beat. Keep in mind this is my daily driven street car. I drove it to the event with a tool box, jack, and a cooler. :) It has very few mods besides the suspension and Cobb AP. I was running Yokohama AD07s and the competition weight of the car is around 3700 pounds with driver and safety gear. We have to run it full of gas of course.

The car's peak lateral g's was 1.33, sustained was 1.2g. Not bad for such a porker! It ran a 2:03.7 as well. That's on par with 2600 pound Prepared class BMWs on Hoosiers. Again, not bad! Car still has some push steady state that we'll continue to work on, but it was a blast to drive!

Special thanks to Cobb Tuning Plano for all the help prepping the car. Cobb aligned it and flushed the brakes the day before. The car never overheated, never detonated, and provided nothing but 320 whp all day long!

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