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Last Post 07 Feb 2016 07:55 PM by  Markwrx
Moving to C Mod an Introduction
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pru
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01 Aug 2011 08:55 PM
Congrats on the purchase!
Sho Torii
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Posts:108


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01 Aug 2011 10:59 PM
Markwrx wrote:

Thanks to all of you who helped me on the "move". I bought the 90 Van Diemen from Sioux Falls. Should be here next week!

Mark

Congrats on your purchase! I was eyeing that car, too.

Sho Torii
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04 Aug 2011 08:53 AM
DickR wrote:

Enclosed versus open trailer? If you have a place to store the car between events an open trailer is viable. That is all I've towed with between Raleigh and a bunch of other places (including Kansas) for many years.

Dick

I have a question for you. Do you cover the car while towing it on an open trailer? If so, what kind of a cover do you use?

TIA

Sho Torii
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04 Aug 2011 08:58 AM
A question about the engine rebuild. In an autocross only car, how often will the Kent motor have to be rebuilt? And what is the average cost of a rebuild?
pru
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Posts:151


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04 Aug 2011 12:16 PM
Sho Torii wrote:
A question about the engine rebuild. In an autocross only car, how often will the Kent motor have to be rebuilt? And what is the average cost of a rebuild?

Sho,

The key to knowing how frequently a specific Kent rebuild is required (and its cost) is knowing what parts make up the engine.

Over the past 10 years, a number of allowances / parts have been introduced to improve Kent reliability; lightened flywheel, SCAT/SCCA crank, forged pistons, aluminum head, electronic ignition, etc. With an engine that has all of the latest updates, most are budgeting 20 to 30 run time hours between rebuilds (some stretch it to 40 to 50 hours!).

Looking over my numbers (5 years / 42 events / 218 runs = ~ 240 min / 4 hours), I would say that, on average, you can budget ~1 hour run time per year for a CM FF. To be even more conservative, budget 2 hours a season. That is, a Kent engine, with all of the latest updates and properly driven/maintained, could easily go 10 years between rebuilds!

All that said, to bring a older Kent engine without any of the latest updates up to spec is going to be the most expensive rebuild (i.e. ~$8000 to $10,000 from a National Level Club Racing engine builder). An up to date engine (with no other major issues), would run in the ~$3000 to $5000 range from the National Level Club Racing engine builder. Cost will be lower if you decide to use local/regional builders (i.e. not specific FF engine shop).

A couple of ApexSpeed threads as reference:

Engine freshening?

Trying to understand operating budget

Take care,

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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04 Aug 2011 01:32 PM
Sho Torii wrote:
DickR wrote:

Enclosed versus open trailer? If you have a place to store the car between events an open trailer is viable. That is all I've towed with between Raleigh and a bunch of other places (including Kansas) for many years.

Dick

I have a question for you. Do you cover the car while towing it on an open trailer? If so, what kind of a cover do you use?

TIA

No. I've seen one very high bucks BMod that was covered while towing into the paddock but it was a very custom cover. The car was from California and probably didn't go out in the rain much.

I use relatively simple home made stuff to keep water out of the air intake and the dash. Everything else is protected by the bodywork or gets soaked in heavy rain.

For overnight stops I use a 9 x 12 blue tarp with carefully placed "tarp bungees" and "girth strap" to secure the tarp.

For really long tows I have home made tire covers and may upgrade to modified off the shelf "junior dragster" covers. This is just to keep the uv and moving air off the rubber. The competition tires are in the tow vehicle for those trips.

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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04 Aug 2011 02:01 PM
Sho Torii wrote:
A question about the engine rebuild. In an autocross only car, how often will the Kent motor have to be rebuilt? And what is the average cost of a rebuild?

Keep in mind that a lot of what Pru mentioned is mostly road racing durability stuff and maybe that last tiny bit of HP the road racers need. Electronic ignition (points eliminator is all we can do) is not needed if you learn how to change points every year or two. I don't know how much HP the aluminum head provides at what rpm. Weight saving may be the biggest advantage. As he said an engine that starts it autox life healthy will stay that way a long time. You can budget for the "rebuild/upgrade" after you determine you like the class and decide the level of competition that fits your life/budget.

FYI Nick's (Locked) car is pretty darn FAST and I think all they did with the engine was freshen the iron head. I assume a lightened flywheel and "racing" clutch. Don't know about the carb. For many years I ran my Ivey prepared carb (from Pegasus) without even dynoing it on my engine to optimize jetting. One or two jets were changed slightly this winter when this engine was dyno'd.

Sho Torii
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:108


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04 Aug 2011 02:15 PM
pru wrote:

Sho,

The key to knowing how frequently a specific Kent rebuild is required (and its cost) is knowing what parts make up the engine.

Over the past 10 years, a number of allowances / parts have been introduced to improve Kent reliability; lightened flywheel, SCAT/SCCA crank, forged pistons, aluminum head, electronic ignition, etc. With an engine that has all of the latest updates, most are budgeting 20 to 30 run time hours between rebuilds (some stretch it to 40 to 50 hours!).

Looking over my numbers (5 years / 42 events / 218 runs = ~ 240 min / 4 hours), I would say that, on average, you can budget ~1 hour run time per year for a CM FF. To be even more conservative, budget 2 hours a season. That is, a Kent engine, with all of the latest updates and properly driven/maintained, could easily go 10 years between rebuilds!

All that said, to bring a older Kent engine without any of the latest updates up to spec is going to be the most expensive rebuild (i.e. ~$8000 to $10,000 from a National Level Club Racing engine builder). An up to date engine (with no other major issues), would run in the ~$3000 to $5000 range from the National Level Club Racing engine builder. Cost will be lower if you decide to use local/regional builders (i.e. not specific FF engine shop).

A couple of ApexSpeed threads as reference:

Engine freshening?

Trying to understand operating budget

Take care,

pru,

Thank you very much for the invaluable information! I've pored over your post and the threads that you referred to. I can now understand and appreciate the wide variance in asking prices for cars seem similar to an untrained eye.

Sho

Sho Torii
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:108


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04 Aug 2011 02:21 PM
DickR wrote:

No. I've seen one very high bucks BMod that was covered while towing into the paddock but it was a very custom cover. The car was from California and probably didn't go out in the rain much.

I use relatively simple home made stuff to keep water out of the air intake and the dash. Everything else is protected by the bodywork or gets soaked in heavy rain.

For overnight stops I use a 9 x 12 blue tarp with carefully placed "tarp bungees" and "girth strap" to secure the tarp.

For really long tows I have home made tire covers and may upgrade to modified off the shelf "junior dragster" covers. This is just to keep the uv and moving air off the rubber. The competition tires are in the tow vehicle for those trips.

Dick,

Thanks for the info. I was thinking about long hauls such as the trip to/from Nationals (1,400 miles each way for me). Do you happen to have pics of your "home made stuff" to keep water out of intake and dash?

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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04 Aug 2011 02:35 PM
Sho Torii wrote:
DickR wrote:

No. I've seen one very high bucks BMod that was covered while towing into the paddock but it was a very custom cover. The car was from California and probably didn't go out in the rain much.

I use relatively simple home made stuff to keep water out of the air intake and the dash. Everything else is protected by the bodywork or gets soaked in heavy rain.

For overnight stops I use a 9 x 12 blue tarp with carefully placed "tarp bungees" and "girth strap" to secure the tarp.

For really long tows I have home made tire covers and may upgrade to modified off the shelf "junior dragster" covers. This is just to keep the uv and moving air off the rubber. The competition tires are in the tow vehicle for those trips.

Dick,

Thanks for the info. I was thinking about long hauls such as the trip to/from Nationals (1,400 miles each way for me). Do you happen to have pics of your "home made stuff" to keep water out of intake and dash?

I have pics at home but they are very "85 Van Diemen" specific.

The "dash cover" is a red plastic paint bucket from Ace Hardware cut and trimmed to slide over the steering shaft and fit between the top of the front roll hoop and the underside of the front bodywork/windshield. The air inlet cover is too complicated to describe with words but is VERY car specific. Fabrication used a drill and hacksaw plus screw driver/wrench, etc. Many guys just secure plastic bags over the inlet. Also, until I attached a SuperTrapp, I stuck a racket ball up the tail pipe to keep water out of the exhaust. Blew it across the paddock once or twice on first start at an event . . .


Locked
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:493


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04 Aug 2011 03:04 PM
DickR wrote:

FYI Nick's (Locked) car is pretty darn FAST and I think all they did with the engine was freshen the iron head. I assume a lightened flywheel and "racing" clutch. Don't know about the carb. For many years I ran my Ivey prepared carb (from Pegasus) without even dynoing it on my engine to optimize jetting. One or two jets were changed slightly this winter when this engine was dyno'd.

If by freshen you mean going from gray/white/lime green to black... :)


We did lap the valves...

I'd like to get it on the dyno to optimize the jets.. I haven't done that because I don't want to know if I'm down on power. My racing budget is being spent on racing. Not rebuilding the motor. So there's no point in knowing. :)

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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04 Aug 2011 05:54 PM
Nick,

Hmmm. I guess going FROM "fresh lime green" TO "dead black" can't really be called "freshening" even though you lapped the valves. :-)

Since I don't have the time this year to actually race much I've been spending my racing budget on getting the car ready for the future. :-)

Problem is I'll have fewer "excuses" for when you guys beat me.

Dick
Markwrx
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:247


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05 Aug 2011 07:28 PM

Ok, the FF is on the way. Now I need some tools. I saw a mechanical jack which would fit under the FF and cannot find one anywhere. Can anyone help?

Mark

Clemens
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


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05 Aug 2011 08:57 PM

Mark,

Pegasus is the only place that I know sells new ones:

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...?RecID=872

You might be able to find a used jack on Apexspeed.

Clemens

pru
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:151


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05 Aug 2011 09:28 PM
Clemens wrote:

You might be able to find a used jack on Apexspeed.

Here are a couple of links from ApexSpeed:

Quicklifts and chassis stands

Garage sale

As Clemens noted, you could also make WTB post.

Sho Torii
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:108


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05 Aug 2011 09:57 PM
I didn't think of the needs for new tools that come with moving to CM from CSP. In addition to the jack and jack stands, I assume most of the tools will be in SAE instead of metric? I may have to buy a bunch of sockets and wrenches to accommodate the move.
Markwrx
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:247


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06 Aug 2011 11:22 PM

Ok, now I have a trailer, a really nice white one(matching my car) and at a great price. I just need to get it registered in CA after not being current for 13 yrs, and it needs new tires. Once I get confirmation the car is on the transport truck(on the 11th or 12th), I will order the new Hoosiers and break out the champaign : &gt;)

Mark

adhowe70
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:770


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06 Aug 2011 11:40 PM

Sho,

I think the need for SAE vs. Metric will vary by chassis and year. My 82 Reynard is virtually all SAE. I suspect a car with a late model LD200 transaxle might be using metric fasteners. Similarly, a Mygale chassis likely uses all metric bits on the chassis. Engine... unless you swap to the Fit, you'll be using SAE tools.

Andy

Markwrx
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:247


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06 Aug 2011 11:46 PM
I sure hope I don't need any Wintworth(sp) tools.
Mark
Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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07 Aug 2011 07:08 AM
Markwrx wrote:
I sure hope I don't need any Wintworth(sp) tools.
Mark

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis..._Whitworth

None in my 85 VD.

I use a small floor jack at home. Under a horizontal bar in the nose area and under the transaxle in the rear. For tire changes at major events I use a small scissor jack one at a time at each corner. I don't have room to carry a quick lift. Obviously for fast tire changes a quick lift is much better.

Jack stands at home are 6"X6" timbers supplemented by small 2"X4"s if I need a little height for some reason. If/when the engine ever needs to come out, small "$10 harbor freight" furniture dollies can support the engine so it will roll out from between frame rails. Ditto for transaxle.

Fasteners are all SAE (I found getting AN grade through Pegasus is the easiest way to get the right size at a reasonable price). Buy Carroll Smith's fastener book to learn about hardware. Pegasus includes details on the grip length which is critical to proper sizing of an AN bolt. http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...roduct=AN5

FYI "AN" is aircraft grade high quality. Sizes are SAE. For our use they "last forever".

The Mk9 transaxle is a mixture of SAE and Metric.

Most bolt/nut sizes are small so you won't need many new tools. I changed front and rear springs yesterday using a 1/2 inch socket, 1/2 inch open, 7/16 open, and a couple of SAE allen wrenches. Just watch for a Sears/Craftsman sale on sets.

Oh, and my center lock wheels use a big socket since the nuts are 3/4 inch AN.

There are two special tools. A 17mm big allen wrench for the Mk 9 Hewland oil plug or this: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...RecID=6299

A special wrench for the engine head bolts for retorquing the head http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pr...RecID=840. Assuming you don't pull the head yourself, this is done "maybe" after the engine overhauls you may need every 5 - 10 years.

Trailer tires are critical. Replace every 3 -4 years. Buy trailer rated with a high load rating (load range C I think). Inflate to the max recommended since it is also apparently the minimum recommended of typically 50 psi. They normally "age out" long before they wear out. Check pressure frequently since under inflation kills them. Carry a new spare also. I've never had a trailer tire blow on the road (good thing since I have an open single axle trailer) but I did have an older SPARE literally blow a section of tread off sitting in my driveway on a hot day.

Dick

CM since 1992


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