AspireTec Engineering  468
PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 27 Oct 2014 05:05 PM by  t walgamuth
New C mod in the INdy region
 715 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 33 of 36 << < 3132333435 > >>
Author Messages
t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
29 Aug 2012 08:14 PM
ding ding ding....we have a winner. The starter adapter does not let the starter "clock " close enough to the flywheel. I put the assembly onto the car with just the gear which engages the flywheel and it extends far enough back on the flywheel but with it all in I can turn the small gear back and forth a lot.....Feels like an eighth of an inch. So I will be grinding and cutting away the edge of the adapter to allow the starter to go toward the block as much as necessary.;)
Clemens
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
30 Aug 2012 03:06 PM
Tom,

Both the axial and the radial positions of the starter pinion with respect to the ring gear are important. A typical pinion to ring gear distance in the axial direction is 3 mm. Typically, closer is better, but there is such a thing as too close (at some point, the pull-in force of the solenoid may not be able to overcome the force of the pinion jump spring when you have a tooth abutment, and you would get a click-no-crank condition). If you are within 2-3 mm, you should be fine. If you are too far away, you'll get engagement milling, either immidiately or over time as the face of the ring gear wears.

If you have too much distance in the radial direction, you get high cranking noise, maybe excessive tooth wear, and, in the worst case, broken gear teeth. If you are too close, the pinion does not want to engage, and you also end up with engagement milling. I don't have a good guideline for the amount of backlash you want, but I am guessing it is <1 mm.

What was the failure mode when you decided you had to make a repair?


Clemens
Clemens
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
30 Aug 2012 03:17 PM
Tom,

Both the axial and the radial positions of the starter pinion with respect to the ring gear are important. A typical pinion to ring gear distance in the axial direction is 3 mm. Typically, closer is better, but there is such a thing as too close (at some point, the pull-in force of the solenoid may not be able to overcome the force of the pinion jump spring when you have a tooth abutment, and you would get a click-no-crank condition). If you are within 2-3 mm, you should be fine. If you are too far away, you'll get engagement milling, either immidiately or over time as the face of the ring gear wears.

If you have too much distance in the radial direction, you get high cranking noise, maybe excessive tooth wear, and, in the worst case, broken gear teeth. If you are too close, the pinion does not want to engage, and you also end up with engagement milling. I don't have a good guideline for the amount of backlash you want, but I am guessing it is <1 mm.

What was the failure mode when you decided you had to make a repair? What do the pinion and ring gear off the car look like?


Clemens
t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
03 Sep 2012 10:37 AM

Ahhh, axial and radial positions....a precise and understandable pair of terms.

My ring gear has been getting milled pretty badly. I had it all apart last summer and had the starter rebuilt and installed a new ring gear thinking the problem was solved. The starter though when engaged continued with its grinding noises. I realize now that the improper radial position of it has been the problem. With it in the position it has been the pinion gears hit the next tooth on the ring gear at each tooth engagement and thus mill it whenever engaged.

I am hoping that if i get in installed properly it will work well enough to avoid pulling off the back end of the car until off season to replace the ring gear.

I will be installing it hopefully today.

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
06 Sep 2012 07:49 AM

I got it installed last night and found after closer examination that my preliminary examination of the relationship led me to a false impression. The axial placement of the starter gear is not far enough toward the back of the car to engage properly. It is only engaging about 1/8" and with all the damage to the ring gear already it just is not enough.

I guess I will ask Larry about that Lucas starter he has.

Clemens
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
07 Sep 2012 10:04 AM

Tom, the axial position of the pinion is critical. On automotive starters, the solenoid contacts close before the pinion is engaged. This allows the pinion to engage in the case of an abutment condition, where the pinion teeth and ring gear teeth are aligned. With the solenoid contacts closed, the pinion rotates under power and clears the abutment, allowing the pinoin to engage. If the pinion is too close to the ring gear, the solenoid contacts might not close, or the ring gear might hit the starter pinion while the engine is running (more of a concern with automatic transmissions due to "ballooning" of the torque converter). If the pinion is too far away, it builds up too much momentum before it engages and causes excessive wear on the face of the ring gear teeth, which gets perpetually worse to a point where the pinion just spins under power and does not want to engage anymore, which is called engagement milling.

You might be able to salvage a damaged ring gear. You might be able to flip it, but might lose the chamfer on the ring gear teeth in the process, which could, in turn, cause engagement problems again. Another possibility is to rotate the ring gear a certain amount to get good ring gear teeth again in the engagement locations (engines always stop in the same locations after shutting down as they run up against a compression stroke). Both "fixes" do require the engine and transmission to be fixed and the ring gear to be taken off the flywheel, but may save you some money. However, if the ring gear is too damaged, you better replace it, or it will also ruin your starter, if that is still in acceptable condition.

Clemens

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
07 Sep 2012 10:51 PM

Thanks Clemens! I bought Larry's spare lucas starter which will engage from the opposite side of the ring gear. So I will use that for now assuming I can get it to work properly. It will require a solinoid mounting but I think I can handle that with no problem.

Congratulations on the great win at Nationals....you too Dan on the second place.

Tom

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
08 Sep 2012 09:02 PM

I have determined that most likely my adapter does not have the starter holes placed correctly and place the starter too far from the flywheel laterally (to use Clemens terms that would be radially I believe). The adapter may have been built wrongly or it may have been broken and repaired causing the misalignment. I think the next step is to pull the transaxle off and replace the ring gear.

Another frustrating and unproductive day on the race car.

I won't be running tomorrow.

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
09 Sep 2012 05:53 PM

I decided to put the starter back on one last time and get it aligned as best I could then try it out. While I was at it I replaced the mounting bolts with studs glued into the aluminum.

It works just fine. I cycled the starter over numerous times and it worked just fine without skipping or milling.

Woo hoo!

I'll be able to put in some times working on other things so I can run next weekend!;)

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
09 Sep 2012 08:11 PM
now I have an electrical problem which I suspect to be a fuse and or a dead short. I think I will see if I can get in to see Dr. Mark.
SccaDaub
New Member
New Member
Posts:17


--
09 Sep 2012 11:06 PM

Studs glued in??

JB Weld is a good friend of mine too!

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
10 Sep 2012 05:14 PM
Red locktite.
t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
17 Sep 2012 11:48 PM

Fired right off with the backup battery and the booster attached, but when I unhooked the booster it died. the backup showed as charged on my charger but is no good. I ordered a ballistic along with the special charger.

I also installed a supertrap muff which will save at least 2.5#. the battery will also save about 8# so that is all good.

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


--
18 Sep 2012 10:34 AM
t walgamuth wrote:

Fired right off with the backup battery and the booster attached, but when I unhooked the booster it died. the backup showed as charged on my charger but is no good. I ordered a ballistic along with the special charger.

I also installed a supertrap muff which will save at least 2.5#. the battery will also save about 8# so that is all good.

Tom,

FYI my experience with the Ballistic charger is that it gives an error message unless the battery is significantly discharged. Therefore I do most charging with an normal automatic charger (after I verified that the normal charger doesn't exceed the voltage limits Ballistic specifies). Pegasus has found that letting the battery discharge more (but still above the specified minimum discharge voltage) allows the special charger to work as intended.

The combo has worked extremely well all season!!! I do recharge every day at multi-day events but from what Pegasus tells me this is overkill.

Dick

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
21 Sep 2012 05:29 AM
Thanks Dick, that is good information. I got the battery mounted into the box last night and fabricated a hold down for it from aluminum channel. I am plnning to run on Sunday at the venerable speedrome (yikes!)
The Nebulizer
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1817


--
21 Sep 2012 10:53 AM
There is also a Ft Wayne event at the colliseum if you are looking for a larger more open site to run the CM.
t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
22 Sep 2012 06:45 AM

That is tempting. At the coloseum it is asphalt too, right?

Any other indy guys heading up that way?

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
23 Sep 2012 06:31 PM

So I ran today at the speedrome. I just decided not to drive all that way. The old track is rough and slippery but my car never bottomed out so I don't think it got hurt by running there. the starter is working fine as long as the big booster is attached. My little cooling fan worked fine too but if I want to cool the car that way I think I'll need three more (there's room for three more). The guages all are working now including the tach. After a couple of runs the car would not cool down in between runs even with fan on in spite of the cool weather. After taking the top cowling off it was no problem, so more air seems to be needed.

The engine is smoking some and I think I still have too much oil in it. One fellow seems to think it is running too rich too, so perhaps new jets are in order. It was run in Virginia previously on the track instead of autocross.

I was the onliest mod car in the first heat so was at some disadvantage on track temperature compared to the "heat" of the afternoon. My driving was nothing to write home about but I got in two clean runs of five...first time this year I have completed all runs at an event.

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


--
15 Oct 2012 07:11 PM

Hello Indy Region, did the fun run occur yesterday? I decided not to go with the rainy forcast. If it happened not to occur when will it be run, the alternative date listed in our schedule?

I plan to run up at Gary next weekend if we aren't having the fun run in Indy Region.

The Nebulizer
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1817


--
15 Oct 2012 10:20 PM

Despite the horrible forcast and radar, the weather was fine. It was a little moist at 10, but course was dry by 11 and stayed that way until we shut down at 2. You missed a good one, Tom. I managed about 15 runs.

You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 33 of 36 << < 3132333435 > >>


Vorshlag 88x31 Button Leroy Engineering Micro Button
Sunoco 88x31 Button
Woodhouse Motorsports SPS 88x31 Button
G-Loc Button

Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank



Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner