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Last Post 27 Oct 2014 05:05 PM by  t walgamuth
New C mod in the INdy region
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01 Apr 2011 10:54 AM
Good to hear.
t walgamuth
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02 Apr 2011 08:32 AM
Unfortunately the gear we have in there for fourth is only good for about three mph more than third! So I will be looking around for one more suitable. The next gear was about 91 mph so fooey!
t walgamuth
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02 Apr 2011 05:02 PM

So we got it all buttoned up and fired the engine and it ran nicely once warmed up. Unfortunately when we went to load it on the trailer it ran a significant amount of oil on the ground. It had collected up in the belly pan and ran out the back when the front of the car tipped up. Now I am pondering pulling the motor to fix it. I don't think the amount of oil is small enough to simply use a pad under it as the PO had said he did last year when running in road races.

It runs nicely though.

Dick Rasmussen
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02 Apr 2011 05:54 PM
Tom,

Do you know where the oil is leaking from?

FYI my car is completely back together except for alignment after changing the wishbones and track/tierod rod ends and installing a new rev limiter. Then I'll inspect the gears and replace the shifter seal.

Then a six week layoff due to minor surgery later this month :-(

Dick
CM 85
t walgamuth
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02 Apr 2011 07:59 PM
It is coming from the curved portion of the "pan" seal. The factory manual says the "pan" is to be assembled with no "pan" gasket just sealer and this engine has a cork gasket there so the gap at the curved portion is excessive making for a leak....presumably.
Dick Rasmussen
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02 Apr 2011 09:55 PM
Tom,

You might want to double check on the cork end seals. They may be needed for both the rear and front "semi circles".

The guys on Apexspeed would know "for sure".

t walgamuth
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03 Apr 2011 05:11 AM

The curved seal is required but the long ones on the sides are not. Since the straight ones are installed they cause excessive space for the curved seals, thus the leak.

Now I am pondering if it is possible to cut away some of the curved seal and its sealer material and create a groove and apply in the groove some sort of epoxy or something which will seal it off. It should not be true oil pressure, just splashing, right?

Dick Rasmussen
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03 Apr 2011 08:39 AM
Tom,

Is your thought to squeeze some sealant into the leak area and the reason for cutting the curved seal is to allow space to do that? If so, that makes sense IF the leak is from that source. However, there is a good chance the dry sump pan has some internal pressure from blow by and/or normal crankcase pressure so don't get your hopes up too high. If you can do this with the engine in the car it could be worth the effort. Plus you can run the engine first to see how bad the leak actually is.

Plus your front seal might be the leak source.


My engine builder is currently using and recommending Permatex Ultra Grey Rigid RTV for the pan and other RTV applications. http://www.permatex.com/documents/t.../82194.pdf

I don't think epoxy would be good.

If you pull the motor you might go ahead and pull the pan and do it right. Replace the rear main seal while you are at it. My engine builder had to do this after a brand new rear main leaked like a sieve at first startup in 1998 (he didn't have a dyno then so the engine was already in the car (not fun but at least I remembered what I had to do to remove and reinstall it).

FYI my engine also does not use pan gaskets. Just the curved seals. There is no header gasket either. Just high temp RTV. This requires a "flat" flange of course.

The joys of used cars, even used race cars.

Edit to change "rear" to "front" after reading your Apexspeed post.


Dick Rasmussen
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03 Apr 2011 09:02 AM
Tom,

Does your car have a mechanical tach drive on the front cover? If so, they can leak and drip down. The mounting area is flexible and even if the bolts are tight it can still leak. My engine builder had me run a small bead of Ultra Grey completely around by adapter after seeing a leak after the dyno runs.

From the sounds of your leak this is likely but . . .
t walgamuth
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04 Apr 2011 08:04 PM
It looks to be coming out the curved pan seal. So the gray seal is better than the blue? I can go get some.
Dick Rasmussen
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04 Apr 2011 08:57 PM
Tom,

Apparently the grey is more rigid but is still flexible. Whether or not you can get a good seal given that the area is oil soaked I don't know. Maybe you can spray brake cleaner into the area and after it dries give the sealant a try.

Have you been able to watch how fast it drips with the engine running?
nutty944
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04 Apr 2011 10:13 PM
t walgamuth wrote:
It looks to be coming out the curved pan seal. So the gray seal is better than the blue? I can go get some.

Ultra Gray is good stuff! Areas still have to be clean before application, but is definitely the best RTV for engine applications.

thedrumm
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07 Apr 2011 10:38 AM

Sorry to bust in, but apparently we don't have messaging on this new forum, that blows.

Jimmy, can you e-mail me when you have time. Thanks Ted thedrumm@comcast.net

t walgamuth
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09 Apr 2011 06:04 PM

No worries, Ted!

Today I took the FF down to Mark Lamms and we discovered that the larger diameter gears needed for autocrossing were hitting the bronze shift arm and preventing it from going into third gear. So Mark took that down and put it back together. I am looking forward to running next sunday at Grissom!

Dick Rasmussen
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09 Apr 2011 06:59 PM
Tom,

Your post brings back memories from 1993 when I ran into that problem with a 17:34 in the 3rd gear position (it has been a second many times with my 9:31 r&amp;p including from 1998). The solution from experts including Craig Taylor was to grind the fork for clearance . . . so I did. I don't recall and my notes don't say whether I used a file or a grinding wheel.

FYI I opened up my trans for the first time since 1998 ("only" the equivalent of about 5 full seasons of autocrossing including Pro Solos) and everything was just fine using normal synthetic (Valvoline probably). Replaced with Redline Shockproof. My notes say that in the early years I would try as many as 4 different gearing options in one year. I never did what Peter Raymond did at at least one Pro Solo which was to change ratios between days (even though he was leading) because he wanted a slightly different one. Or what Tommy Saunders and Stu Lumpkin had to do after breaking the trans on launch at a Pro (in front of me). The only drive train part I've ever broken, even with a bunch of Pro Solo starts on high grip surfaces, was one half shaft at a local event where one wheel hit a hole and then got grip suddenly on the other side of the hole with high revs in first gear. Very clean break. Got high strength shafts and no more breaks.

Everything is back together in my car . . . too bad I'l have a couple of month forced layoff due to surgery.

Fresh engine, shiny suspension parts, fresh paint on frame, fresh rod ends, spiffy clean everywhere (until the first wet tow on an open trailer in the rain or the first runs on a wet course). Considering very little has been needed since I did all this stuff and much more in 91/92 and used the car hard until 2002 that is not too shabby.

Dick
t walgamuth
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09 Apr 2011 11:02 PM

yeah.

I had a partial knee replacement 2.25.11. It is now fully healed on the outside and working very well with full range of motion and less pain walking in years. It still is slightly tender around the wound area and it gets sore but today I was on my feet at Mark's for about four hours on concrete without trouble.

The loss of conditioning is still apparent since it has been six weeks since I was able to fully exercise but that is getting better too with a lot of walking.

I am looking forward to next week!

Mark used a hand rat tail file, and a hand held air grinder to trim it down. He is a marvelously skilled craftsman.

It is encouraging that you have had so little in the way of major part failures. In my car with the 10/31 diff we need more aggessive gears to get the same final drive ratio.

Clemens
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10 Apr 2011 09:12 AM
Dick Rasmussen wrote:

FYI I opened up my trans for the first time since 1998 ("only" the equivalent of about 5 full seasons of autocrossing including Pro Solos) and everything was just fine using normal synthetic (Valvoline probably). Replaced with Redline Shockproof.

What grade Shockproof do you guys run in the Hewlands? I checked the Redline Web site, but could not decide between the Lightweight and Super-Lightweight, but was leaning towards Lightweight. The Racer Parts Wholesale Web site a a little additional info:

Heavy Shockproof Gear Oil:

-Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W250, yet low fluid friction like 75W90
-For heavily-loaded racing differentials and transmissions, problem gearboxes
-Many performance racing applications like Sprint/Midget/Dirt Late Model Differentials, Detroit Lockers and spools, NHRA Top Fuel and Funny Car rear ends
-Not recommended for most synchro applications due to the product's extreme slipperiness

Nah, that's not it.

Lightweight Shockproof Gear Oil:

-Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W140, yet low fluid friction like 80W gear oil or 30W motor oil
-Excellent low-temp flow, improved cold shifting
-For racing differentials under moderate loads
-Popular in racing transmissions like Hewland and other Road Racing dog-ring boxes, Bert and Brinn for Stock Cars, G-Force, and Liberty clutchless for Drag Racing

Hmm, maybe this would work for an MK9 in a small formula car.

Super-Lightweight Shockproof Gear Oil:

-Film thickness greater than an SAE 75W90, yet low fluid friction like ATF
-Used in low-power dog-ring racing transaxles with moderate to low load, qualifying, etc.
-Popular in British F3, Euro F3 and Star Mazda racing gearboxes for ultra low drag

Well, I think an F3 car has more power than mine, and autocrossing does not put that much run-time on the gearbox. Maybe this is it. I also checked the Hewland manual, which, I think, said to use 90-weight oil. With that info, I bought the Super-Lightweight for my car. Is that consistent with what you guys run in your C-Mods?

Clemens

Dick Rasmussen
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10 Apr 2011 09:00 PM
Clemens,

I used Lightweight because that is what Pete Calhoun recommended . . . I think. Previously (i.e. the last almost 20 years) I used 75W-90 synth . . . usually Valvoline.

Dick
t walgamuth
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10 Apr 2011 09:03 PM

I used what the fellow I bought the gears from recommended....taylor racing? I think it was what Clemens bought too. I'd go look but I am in Ohio tonight.

jchiu
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11 Apr 2011 01:38 AM
t walgamuth wrote:

yeah.

I had a partial knee replacement 2.25.11. It is now fully healed on the outside and working very well with full range of motion and less pain walking in years. It still is slightly tender around the wound area and it gets sore but today I was on my feet at Mark's for about four hours on concrete without trouble.

The loss of conditioning is still apparent since it has been six weeks since I was able to fully exercise but that is getting better too with a lot of walking.

I am looking forward to next week!

Mark used a hand rat tail file, and a hand held air grinder to trim it down. He is a marvelously skilled craftsman.

It is encouraging that you have had so little in the way of major part failures. In my car with the 10/31 diff we need more aggessive gears to get the same final drive ratio.

I feel like we discussed something regarding to the shift fork contacting the gear when we pulled the gearbox apart. Good to hear Mark hooked you up and got her sorted (thanks from me too Mark!).

Did the permatex and relocation of the valve cover breather fix the oil leak issue? I'm super busy this week but I'd still like to get a shakedown if you're game.

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