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Last Post 18 Apr 2012 09:06 PM by  mlane350z
350Z to ESP (Feb Fastrack)
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christoc
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24 Jan 2011 12:50 PM
2008 Solo Nationals Results

http://cms.scca.com/documents/solo_...20book.pdf

BSP 81.205

ESP 82.559

Highest finishing BSP 350z 83.573

2009 Results

BSP 113.755
ESP 114.870
Highest placing BSP 350z none
AutoX Z
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24 Jan 2011 12:56 PM
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

The problem is all the RWD cars in BSP that got obsoleted by the EVO's coming up and the sky/soltice coming down. I think the better solution to moving these cars down into other classes would be to add another class in the middle somewhere.
rtp.rick
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24 Jan 2011 12:57 PM
slowSER wrote:
SerNick wrote:
Sorry Chris but anyone who has seen Michael Bright's BSP 350Z down in Dixie knows that there is absolutely no way this could fly. The Z is currently an extremely competitive BSP car and probably could win the existing class. Why it wouldn't absolutely destroy ESP is beyond me.

BSP at last year's Dixie National Tour:

1. Terry Tabor, EVO, 111.120 (and finished 5th in Lincoln, FWIW)
2. Rob Faulkner, 350Z, 111.351
3. Michael Bright, 350Z, 112.799

McCance was there in ESP but IIRC he was on the rent-an-F-Stock-car program.

Pat

McCance broke his car and borrowed Strano's Mustang.

H's &amp; K's,
Rick Ruth

boardkat
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24 Jan 2011 01:01 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

The problem is all the RWD cars in BSP that got obsoleted by the EVO's coming up and the sky/soltice coming down. I think the better solution to moving these cars down into other classes would be to add another class in the middle somewhere.

400lbs less may be a little bit exaggerated in SP trim. in stock trim, with a coupe (slightly lighter), low-2800's is the best i could do if i took the targa off, removed my a/c, had custom fab'd aluminum shock housings and wheels made of unobtanium. from what i recall, umino's BSP 350Z (best example i've seen around these parts) was @ or close to sub-3000, and i know alex is struggling to get his solstice into the low 2700's in his BSP GXP 'vert. so i'd say that 300lbs is worst case, 200-250 best case. still a substantial difference of course, when you factor in the whole power/track/double-wishbone thing - which is why i'm guessing there won't be a proposal to move the GXP to ESP any time soon!!

SerNick
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24 Jan 2011 01:17 PM
slowSER wrote:
SerNick wrote:
Sorry Chris but anyone who has seen Michael Bright's BSP 350Z down in Dixie knows that there is absolutely no way this could fly. The Z is currently an extremely competitive BSP car and probably could win the existing class. Why it wouldn't absolutely destroy ESP is beyond me.

BSP at last year's Dixie National Tour:

1. Terry Tabor, EVO, 111.120 (and finished 5th in Lincoln, FWIW)
2. Rob Faulkner, 350Z, 111.351
3. Michael Bright, 350Z, 112.799

McCance was there in ESP but IIRC he was on the rent-an-F-Stock-car program.

Pat

Pat you were there weren't you?


I'm pretty sure that was Rob's first time ever in that car and if it weren't for a few pesky cones his net time would have been much faster. I've seen a lot of fast cars, and my jaw was on the ground every time it was on course.


Not to mention that the Evo clearly had a distinct advantage on that surface so unless we know the state of each car's tires its really hard to make blanket comparisons from result of one event. (Not really directed at you Pat - even though you are a Caps fan you aren't really a moron :))

slowSER
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24 Jan 2011 01:53 PM
Chris Hammond wrote:
If we want to just throw random results out there, how about this

Awesome. I suppose if Rob finished two seconds out of first each day it would be a more credible result.

Pat

slowSER
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24 Jan 2011 02:00 PM
SerNick wrote:

Not to mention that the Evo clearly had a distinct advantage on that surface so unless we know the state of each car's tires its really hard to make blanket comparisons from result of one event. (Not really directed at you Pat - even though you are a Caps fan you aren't really a moron :))

It was pretty stupid of me to use results from a national SCCA event. I'll go back to magazine racing and using hypotheticals to support my agenda.

Pat

slowSER
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24 Jan 2011 02:15 PM
I remember competiting for a spot on an off-ramp with a 350Z in my old LB9 Firebird, and we were dead dead even. If a 350Z isn't any faster than a 230-HP, 305ci, 3,333-pound F Body, they don't have any hope even in ESP.

Pat
AutoX Z
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24 Jan 2011 02:18 PM
boardkat wrote:
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

The problem is all the RWD cars in BSP that got obsoleted by the EVO's coming up and the sky/soltice coming down. I think the better solution to moving these cars down into other classes would be to add another class in the middle somewhere.

400lbs less may be a little bit exaggerated in SP trim. in stock trim, with a coupe (slightly lighter), low-2800's is the best i could do if i took the targa off, removed my a/c, had custom fab'd aluminum shock housings and wheels made of unobtanium. from what i recall, umino's BSP 350Z (best example i've seen around these parts) was @ or close to sub-3000, and i know alex is struggling to get his solstice into the low 2700's in his BSP GXP 'vert. so i'd say that 300lbs is worst case, 200-250 best case. still a substantial difference of course, when you factor in the whole power/track/double-wishbone thing - which is why i'm guessing there won't be a proposal to move the GXP to ESP any time soon!!

I thought I'd seen a mid 2600 number thrown around at some point but I may be wrong there.

Point is, I don't think the Z car has any chance in BSP just looking at the numbers. The fact that someone has attempted preparing one with it being uncompetitive is proof that there is demand for this car to have a place in SP to play. I know that I've thought about it with my car, done the math, and figured that it's not worth it. So where to put it then? ESP makes the most sense but everyone seems very against that.

christoc
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24 Jan 2011 02:21 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
So where to put it then? ESP makes the most sense but everyone seems very against that.

Not everyone is against it!


SerNick
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24 Jan 2011 02:58 PM
slowSER wrote:
SerNick wrote:

Not to mention that the Evo clearly had a distinct advantage on that surface so unless we know the state of each car's tires its really hard to make blanket comparisons from result of one event. (Not really directed at you Pat - even though you are a Caps fan you aren't really a moron :))

It was pretty stupid of me to use results from a national SCCA event. I'll go back to magazine racing and using hypotheticals to support my agenda.

Pat

About time we are on the same page

Chiketkd
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24 Jan 2011 03:58 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

You think that's an uphill battle, look at the RX-8 in BSP. It has a similar weight, width and tire "footprint" as a SP prepped Solstice/Sky, but makes over 100 less whp and 150 less wtq (using conservative numbers of 300whp/300wtq for the Solstice/Sky -- I've heard somewhat higher numbers have been achieved).

Yeah, no chance in hell for the RX-8...

AutoX Z
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24 Jan 2011 04:41 PM
Chiketkd wrote:
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

You think that's an uphill battle, look at the RX-8 in BSP. It has a similar weight, width and tire "footprint" as a SP prepped Solstice/Sky, but makes over 100 less whp and 150 less wtq (using conservative numbers of 300whp/300wtq for the Solstice/Sky -- I've heard somewhat higher numbers have been achieved).

Yeah, no chance in hell for the RX-8...

Or the M3's, or the C4 corvettes, or the S2000. All of these are proven, popular solo cars at all other levels but have no competitive class in SP. Something needs to get done to fix this. And before the EVO guys wander in here and start complaining, I do no think that the EVO should be ousted to ASP and killed off.

Time to write my letter....



christoc
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24 Jan 2011 05:13 PM
Chiketkd wrote:
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

Yeah, no chance in hell for the RX-8...

At least you guys have/had other classes that the car was competitive in

BigEnos
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24 Jan 2011 05:21 PM
slowSER wrote:
Cr0usEEE wrote:
Pat...since when did an L98 have aluminum heads???

I forgot that he did the Firehawk motor (hey, an L98 in a C4 Corvette is still an L98). Maybe the dyno #s he posted here were from his old setup. Anyway, he (as well as every other F Body and most Mustangs in ESP) is still trying to put down that power through a live axle and in a car that is heavier than a stock 350Z.

Pat

What Mark told me is that his engine is a Firehawk engine, but not the 383 version. I pull away on a prosolo start fairly handily even with a few hundred more lbs of car/driver weight and an internally stock LT1.

The engine he has is not super powerful, but the aluminum heads make it worth it due to weight savings. I would believe the ~250rwhp number thrown out earlier.

BigEnos
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24 Jan 2011 05:25 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
I don't see how a 350, or 370 for that matter, is going to be competitive in BSP against the sky/solstice which has the same power, same tire, narrower, and weighs 400 lbs less.

The problem is all the RWD cars in BSP that got obsoleted by the EVO's coming up and the sky/soltice coming down. I think the better solution to moving these cars down into other classes would be to add another class in the middle somewhere.

I completely agree with this. There's a lot of cool cars that have nowhere to play so the Evo can have it's 4th (or 5th!) competitive classing option. Evos are super cool cars, but I'd like SP to either add a class or do something with it.

SMSupercoupe
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24 Jan 2011 06:52 PM
Seems to me that creating a problem in ESP is not the best way to fix a problem in BSP. I wrote my letter against the proposed move.
Cr0usEEE
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24 Jan 2011 07:18 PM
Brian your right that it's the firehawk 350ci 350hp "base" engine but with ESP legal mods it should make more than 250hp...I would hope headers, intake and tuning would put it to at least 300hp.

I know mark runs a very small clutch through the stock t5 (maybe t10 4speed??) so the weak launches are more about car breakage reduction. You have the advantage of gearing and a much stronger trans to put the power through.

Look at his launches last year (60 ft times) vs Greg's wrx and you can see he was pushing it a little harder.
Cr0usEEE
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24 Jan 2011 07:18 PM
Stupid iPhone double post
Chiketkd
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24 Jan 2011 07:37 PM
SMSupercoupe wrote:
Seems to me that creating a problem in ESP is not the best way to fix a problem in BSP. I wrote my letter against the proposed move.

+1 After careful thought, I came to a similar conclusion. Submitted a letter that expressed this.

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