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Last Post 18 Apr 2012 09:06 PM by  mlane350z
350Z to ESP (Feb Fastrack)
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christoc
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24 Jan 2011 08:27 PM
SMSupercoupe wrote:
Seems to me that creating a problem in ESP is not the best way to fix a problem in BSP. I wrote my letter against the proposed move.

Maybe I'm biased (okay I am biased) but I've yet to read anything that says it will be a real problem. As in, I have yet to see actual results of a BSP prepped 350z versus a prepped ESP car at a national level event.

It's sort of a guilty waiting to be proven innocent type of thing at this point. You're a new car, into our class, how dare you, get out!

But hey, that's what I expected the result to be.

Cr0usEEE
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24 Jan 2011 09:00 PM
Kinda like the Audi R8 into SS last year??? Remember that uproar?? So is the 350z faster than the e36 m3? That was in ESP with similar cars as now...or the sti and evo which were ESP for a year?

If you want to kill the pony car class (which is one of the biggest sp classes) then go ahead but I want to SEB or whoever to say that. The live axle guys can still go to CP!!

Then again the e36s and 350s might be competitive in the new St reorg...or sm/ssm if you want to throw money at it!!

Pony cars = CP only
christoc
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24 Jan 2011 09:04 PM
Cr0usEEE wrote:
If you want to kill the pony car class (which is one of the biggest sp classes) then go ahead but I want to SEB or whoever to say that. The live axle guys can still go to CP!!

That's the paranoia that is ESP. No one has ever (that I have seen) said they want to kill the pony car class. It's an unknown, at this point in time no one knows for sure what it will do. Maybe it will improve the class, maybe it will change the class, maybe the 350z will suck there just as it has in every other class.

GlennAustin
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24 Jan 2011 09:53 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
ESP makes the most sense but everyone seems very against that.

Not me.

I know what Peter did to his 350Z (he and I discussed what he was doing after driving mine in 2007), and he drove incredibly well to trophy.

I honestly don't understand all of the "fear" over the car. It's just a car that is fun to drive that has been mis-classed since it was released.


solo-x
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24 Jan 2011 10:27 PM
Wow. It's a suggestion that the SPAC put out for member comment, not the opening volley for the SEB trying to kill off the pony car class. Less caffeine and hyperbole. :-)

This isn't a question of "is the car competitive in BSP", it's a question of should it be classed in ESP.

Putting power down with a live rear axle isn't a problem. Putting power down on bumpy surfaces is. More static camber in a IRS is actually a handicap, hindering power down. The advantage is again when working over bumps. A live rear axle only needs the camber necessary to overcome tire deflection. It suffers no camber loss in roll until you lift the inside rear.

If the 350Z is such an over dog, why hasn't someone built a G35 yet? I realize the G35 is a little heavier and a little longer, but not nearly to the degree that would take it from over dog (350Z) to trophy fodder 2nd tier car (G35).

<- still has no opinion, but personally would love to see a class full of 350z's, S2000's, E36 M3's, C4 Corvettes, RX8's, and a few others.
mleach
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24 Jan 2011 10:38 PM
Dsp?
Cr0usEEE
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24 Jan 2011 11:03 PM
I like to see a bsp also ran class as well...but when it is proposed it's knocked down. But if it has street tires involved watch out!!!

(still doesn't understand why people want to autox big heavy vettes on stock width wheels and street tires...it sucks!!!!)
BigEnos
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24 Jan 2011 11:08 PM
Cr0usEEE wrote:
Brian your right that it's the firehawk 350ci 350hp "base" engine but with ESP legal mods it should make more than 250hp...I would hope headers, intake and tuning would put it to at least 300hp.

I know mark runs a very small clutch through the stock t5 (maybe t10 4speed??) so the weak launches are more about car breakage reduction. You have the advantage of gearing and a much stronger trans to put the power through.

Look at his launches last year (60 ft times) vs Greg's wrx and you can see he was pushing it a little harder.

Mark has a T5 (Barney has a 4-speed). Yes, he has a very small clutch so he babies the launch, but I still seem to pull after that &lt;shrug&gt;. Maybe he's always soft-pedaled when he's run against me, I don't know. Remember, the car is making nearly 400 lb.ft. at the rear wheels, so 250hp is not really telling the whole story. Again, I could be wrong or he could be snowing me. Regardless, engine power isn't what makes that car work so well.

mwood
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24 Jan 2011 11:10 PM

AWD cars, prepped, cannot play with 2WD cars. Road racing proved it, Solo tries to ignore it...and I can't avoid pointing it out, evidently. lol

The 350Z doesn't fit in ESP. Better to create an AWDSP and let BSP return to its roots.

BigEnos
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24 Jan 2011 11:21 PM
Chris Hammond wrote:
Cr0usEEE wrote:
If you want to kill the pony car class (which is one of the biggest sp classes) then go ahead but I want to SEB or whoever to say that. The live axle guys can still go to CP!!

That's the paranoia that is ESP. No one has ever (that I have seen) said they want to kill the pony car class. It's an unknown, at this point in time no one knows for sure what it will do. Maybe it will improve the class, maybe it will change the class, maybe the 350z will suck there just as it has in every other class.

Just because ESP competitors are paranoid doesn't mean it's not true. It all seems very familiar to me. So, Chris, why shouldn't 350Z owners be required to prove that their cars are uncompetitive before the move is proposed? You said no one has put together a serious effort with one so how do we know the potential?

The worst thing, for me anyway, is that I can totally see the argument this time. These cars deserve a place to play, but I hate to see a vibrant class get squashed in the process.

I can say, 100%, that if this proposal goes I am out of ESP for good. The Camaro will make a good track car/street machine.

christoc
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24 Jan 2011 11:46 PM
BigEnos wrote:
Just because ESP competitors are paranoid doesn't mean it's not true. It all seems very familiar to me. So, Chris, why shouldn't 350Z owners be required to prove that their cars are uncompetitive before the move is proposed? You said no one has put together a serious effort with one so how do we know the potential?

The worst thing, for me anyway, is that I can totally see the argument this time. These cars deserve a place to play, but I hate to see a vibrant class get squashed in the process.

I can say, 100%, that if this proposal goes I am out of ESP for good. The Camaro will make a good track car/street machine.


BigE, I am planning on prepping my car for BSP this year, I was already in the process when I saw the ESP proposal last week. I don't know if I'll be able to get it to 100% prep'd this year though, due to budget. I'm going to try but having sold the house I purchased 6 months prior, had a kid, and moved to California, my budget is much smaller than it could be.

I just hope this doesn't get decided before I have a chance to see what will happen with my car. I am by no means a driver to gauge though, closest I've ever put a 350z was one out of trophies in BS, at least I was in front of Vitamvas though (at least in my memory I was) :D


BigEnos
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25 Jan 2011 06:39 AM
Chris Hammond wrote:
BigEnos wrote:
Just because ESP competitors are paranoid doesn't mean it's not true. It all seems very familiar to me. So, Chris, why shouldn't 350Z owners be required to prove that their cars are uncompetitive before the move is proposed? You said no one has put together a serious effort with one so how do we know the potential?

The worst thing, for me anyway, is that I can totally see the argument this time. These cars deserve a place to play, but I hate to see a vibrant class get squashed in the process.

I can say, 100%, that if this proposal goes I am out of ESP for good. The Camaro will make a good track car/street machine.

BigE, I am planning on prepping my car for BSP this year, I was already in the process when I saw the ESP proposal last week. I don't know if I'll be able to get it to 100% prep'd this year though, due to budget. I'm going to try but having sold the house I purchased 6 months prior, had a kid, and moved to California, my budget is much smaller than it could be.

I just hope this doesn't get decided before I have a chance to see what will happen with my car. I am by no means a driver to gauge though, closest I've ever put a 350z was one out of trophies in BS, at least I was in front of Vitamvas though (at least in my memory I was) :D

Congrat's on the baby!

The only good answer in my mind is to make another SP class, but unlike ST that's not possible apparently.

GlennAustin
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25 Jan 2011 10:27 AM
BigEnos wrote:
So, Chris, why shouldn't 350Z owners be required to prove that their cars are uncompetitive before the move is proposed? You said no one has put together a serious effort with one so how do we know the potential?


It has been. I know what Peter did to his BSP 350Z, and let me assure you, it was prepped to the LIMIT of the SP rule set, and the Evos and STIs have gotten more allowances since then.

Regional competition isn't a good comparison -- even if you have national champions running, and in fact I would say that it's more likely that the national trophy contenders are more likely to save the "good stuff" for NT and Nationals. I have to doubt that jumping in the 350Z and "posting faster numbers" is really a good comparison as well. Shoot, I've "jumped in" a well-prepared JCW Mini and posted good numbers as well -- does that mean that we all should have been driving JCW minis in BS and CS? Not a chance.

The IRS Cobras of the previous generation Mustangs didn't kill F Stock or ESP -- it's doubtful that the 350Z would greatly change things as well.

Most sane people would say that the reason more 350Zs don't come out are because they have been mis-classed to keep them uncompetitive (thanks in part to the dominance of the 280Z when it was first introduced). I say that it's time to quit worrying about the past -- the 350Z and 370Z are not the 280Z. Get over it.

Give a fun car a place to play where they aren't stomped into the ground. We can grow mullets if that is what is necessary... ;)

01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:29 PM
fastmike wrote:
Laguna Seca Boss to ESP then ok on the Z cars?
FM

How does that make a Z bigger, heavier and fatter? And what makes you think a Boss will be a faster ESP car? The gears are too deep, and frankly there is nothing else about it other than the rear seat delete in a Laguna that will really make a difference over say my car build to ESP spec....

01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:33 PM
Chiketkd wrote:

One thing to keep in mind about ESP, the winning car at Nats for the last 3+ yrs, is Madarash's '88 Trans Am that puts down ~250whp/350wtq, weighs right around 3,000lbs and has a width of 72.4" (per Nissan's published specs, width of the 350Z is 71.5").

While I expect the speed of ESP to increase in the coming years, are they're any other heavier, mid-powered 2 seat sports cars in the class? If the 350Z is let in perhaps some of the older C3 corvettes should be considered as well???

Exactly, and the Z is smaller, and has that IRS too. :) Add the great ABS which Mark's car does not have (by a Mustang does--but it also has much more weight and girth too).

I like Z's a lot. I started in Z cars and drove on last year, thought about buying one but business reasons meant the Mustang was the smarter choice, but ESP isn't right. I'd sooner see the 300ZX Turbo come down to ESP than the 350/370. At least they are more in the weight realm of the pony-cars.

01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:36 PM
GlennAustin wrote:

Having the 350Z in the class is really not a lot different than what will be happening in a couple years when the Shelbys start showing up.

Respectfully Glenn that isn't accurate. What about a Shelby in ESP is so scary? It's already got stiffer and lower springs. It's already got upgraded swaybars. The things it has already are what make it so good in F-stock (and still slower than stock class, some with limited prep, Z cars in my hands).

01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:39 PM
Chris Hammond wrote:
If we want to just throw random results out there, how about this

2010 Solo Nationals
BSP 121.46
ESP 118.96 (top 3 in ESP were &lt; BSP winning time)

Chris-- Come on man.. weather was a BIG factor. I think ESP pounded ASP too, are you going to want to put C6 Z06's and GTR's in ESP. :)



01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:42 PM
rtp.rick wrote:
slowSER wrote:
SerNick wrote:
Sorry Chris but anyone who has seen Michael Bright's BSP 350Z down in Dixie knows that there is absolutely no way this could fly. The Z is currently an extremely competitive BSP car and probably could win the existing class. Why it wouldn't absolutely destroy ESP is beyond me.

BSP at last year's Dixie National Tour:

1. Terry Tabor, EVO, 111.120 (and finished 5th in Lincoln, FWIW)
2. Rob Faulkner, 350Z, 111.351
3. Michael Bright, 350Z, 112.799

McCance was there in ESP but IIRC he was on the rent-an-F-Stock-car program.

Pat

McCance broke his car and borrowed Strano's Mustang.


H's &amp; K's,
Rick Ruth

Well, the Subaru broke on day 2... he drove it on day 1. He drove the Shelby the second day (which is actually Mike Snyder's car, not mine).

01 FS Z28
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25 Jan 2011 12:48 PM
And finally: The IRS SN95 was bound to come up sooner or later. Still heavier than a Z, with a way crappier suspension, front and rear.

As for the solid axle. Getting power down is harder with them than IRS cars as rear swaybar levers up on the inside rear wheel that much more since they are both connected to start with across the axle. Watch a C4 or C5 get power down vs. a 3rd or 4th gen f-body (like engines is the reason for comparison) and you'll see how much an IRS helps.
christoc
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25 Jan 2011 01:05 PM
01 FS Z28 wrote:
Chris-- Come on man.. weather was a BIG factor. I think ESP pounded ASP too, are you going to want to put C6 Z06's and GTR's in ESP. :)

I wasn't there, I was just pointing out that looking at single event results can be misleading :D

I'm a big believer in "any given sunday" that any given event someone can pull out a win with a car that can't win. (I won a National Tour, once, and that I believe is why)

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