JarrettFord
Amod wing discussion
Last Post 21 Jan 2012 03:55 PM by old fart. 8 Replies.
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thewelderUser is Offline
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14 Aug 2011 07:43 PM
    I plan on making some wings over the winter for my Amod. Here is my question. My car is 60.5 inches wide in the front. My thinking is the front wing needs to be narrower than the front wide. What are some of your opinions. If I make it out of CF or fiberglass should I armor the front edge with something to keep cones form killing it. thanks Chad
    zexelUser is Offline
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    15 Aug 2011 05:27 PM

    I was planning to build a 56" wide front wing. To use tuner wing elements for 2nd and 3rd: cad model here. I was considering 1/8" wall aluminum tubing for the front wing's leading edge internals.

    Dimensional notes from Joe's design for the original Phantom's wings: notes. Google found this:

    All things considered, Andy's car is not slow at all. At 2000's Nationals, the first year for the car, it finished 7 with Andy's 19 year old son behind the wheel. If you consider the first 4 spots were taken by the top 3 cars (Phantom, ex-Bowland's and the Dragon) and a top calibre FSAE entry from Cal Polytech (the car had an electric supercharger and a huge carbon fibre bi-wing, and the car was flown to England and won the FSAE competition in England that same year) finished 5th and 6th. This makes Andy's car the 5th fastest car that year. It also has a 2 cylinder 700 c.c. engine rather than the 1000 c.c. triple that the top 3 cars are running. The important thing is that the car is a true "built from scratch" car rather than a modified production formula car/sports racer.

    To answer Guido's question. Andy's wing is a production off the shelf wing from a sprint car wing manufacturer. Locally, John Haftner runs the same wing and you will be seeing him this year since his car is finally put back together. It's not the biggest wing ever apppeared in an autox (both Canadian and SCCA). That distinction goes to John Haftner also. He built a 6'x5.5' wing during the early '80s when wing was not fashionable (even in SCCA) and everyone said downforce couldn't be produced at autox speed. Yes, us Vancouverites have always be leaders in autox technologies when it comes to modified cars. In fact, Vancouver won FTD honour in EVERY SINGLE CANADIAN NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, with John capturing all but 4 of those titles. That wing was later sold to Mike Elliot who put it on the Zink and was later sold to me. I then sold it to Henry Lu, who planned to mount it on top of his Camaro, but never got around to do it. At the end, Henry sold it back to Mike who is the Canadian version of Andy Whittle. The "mad professor type" who constantly has some un-orthrodox ideas on how to make a car go faster.

    In regards to wing design for autox. The problem is finding a profile that is efficient for low-speed applications. Most of the profiles out there for airplanes and race cars are all designed for higher speed. For low speed applications, you need a "thick" body relative to the wing's cord (measurement from leading edge to trailing edge). The goal is to find a profile that approaches 20% in that ratio. For amaturers like us, it's almost impossible to develope our own profile. John Haftner worked with an English wing manufacturer many years ago when he decided to replace his first generation "monster" wing. That manufacturer produced a lot of wings for pro teams funded by car manufacturers. One of them was the Jaguar Group 44 GTP car. The rear wing profile on that particular car was thought to be the best low-speed wing. John bought the pre-bent aluminium wing skin of that profile and proceeded to produce a beautiful 3-element wing with it. I thought it was kind of small and decided to put the drawing in a photocopying machine and press 1.6x and enlarged it. Harvey (my last A-Mod car co-owner) and I built that 1.6x wing out of aluminium and ran it on the Zink. For the Phantom, I decided to use carbon and built two wings with completely different construction, knowing that the front one was going to hit cones at high speed. The internal structure was my own design and so far it has proven to be quite adequate (unlike some of my U.S. competitors). There are minor details which I don't like and I would revise my design the next time around. The interest thing is that when the wings were tested at UBC's wing tunnel a few years ago. The drag/lift coefficient couldn't have been better. I am very happy with the numbers. I also learned a lot during those 40-50 hours. There are some more details which could imporve the downforce which I haven't incorporated in the current set up. I now appreciate why all the top F1 teams have their own wind tunnel.

    Joe

    Marlin

    vreihen16User is Offline
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    17 Aug 2011 09:03 PM
    If you put yellow Kevlar over black carbon fiber, the result is a green composite laminate. That's all that I have learned in three years of trying to perfect my own wing construction. :-( Feel free to make your own test samples and whack them over the edge of a cinder block until you find a construction technique and composite lamination scheme that works for you. I still don't have a completed product to test on cones yet, but have produced plenty of samples that made good test subjects due to cosmetic problems trying to learn the tricks to making functional composite parts without an autoclave.

    I seem to recall reading somewhere that the original Phantom wings employed clear stone-guard material to prevent them from being chipped up by flying pebbles. Don't know what Joe did for cone impact protection, though.....
    old fartUser is Offline
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    21 Sep 2011 12:56 AM
    The 1992 wing on "the old dog " Amod sprint car was a 5by5 sprint car top wing with 12 in added to each side= 5foot chord by 7 foot span. Now we have 75 in max span and the 66in height restriction-bah! The current Amod minisprint front wing is a minisprint 17by30in front wing(end ribs and three transverse spars) with 74in spars(end plates add 1in. The main wing is a sprint car 24by 36in nose wing (same construction) stretched to 24by73in +end plates. Free, wrinkled oval track wings + .030 sheets and lots of pop rivets(the builder of an all aluminum home built at an E.A.A. event used the same Home Depot domed rivets to build his wings)." The speeds we fly the rivets don't hurt the lift." "70 mph"was the quoted velocity! As Joe said the wings produce lift at low speeds(look for "banana" wings in sprint car speak-large curve top and bottom surfaces).
    pontoontoddUser is Offline
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    18 Jan 2012 04:28 PM

    Does anyone know of any A mod racers who might have a wing for sale, maybe they're upgrading to something better?

    Where do you get a thick or banana spring car wing? I've seen them for sale but usually not in many flavors. Anyone have any idea what kind of lift or drag one of these sprint car wings produces at these speeds?

    kjchristopherUser is Offline
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    19 Jan 2012 12:49 AM
    pontoontodd wrote:

    Does anyone know of any A mod racers who might have a wing for sale, maybe they're upgrading to something better?

    Where do you get a thick or banana spring car wing? I've seen them for sale but usually not in many flavors. Anyone have any idea what kind of lift or drag one of these sprint car wings produces at these speeds?

    I've got new wings on the way, so mine will be. kjchristopher@gmail.com

    old fartUser is Offline
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    20 Jan 2012 10:07 PM
    Pontoontodd: Try Lightning MiniSprint Wings Tulsa ,OK. Aluminum two element nose wing easily stretched to Amod max span. The end plates are pre drilled. I think the minisprint size 18x30 was $85. Full size wrinkled sprint car nose wings usually are free if you fraternize with dirt oval people! Dirt ovals(1/2 to 5/8 poss even1/4) and open wheels should be in the solo speed range and they do have a positive effect on Amod weight cars.
    pontoontoddUser is Offline
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    21 Jan 2012 10:29 AM
    old fart wrote:
    Pontoontodd: Try Lightning MiniSprint Wings Tulsa ,OK. Aluminum two element nose wing easily stretched to Amod max span. The end plates are pre drilled. I think the minisprint size 18x30 was $85. Full size wrinkled sprint car nose wings usually are free if you fraternize with dirt oval people! Dirt ovals(1/2 to 5/8 poss even1/4) and open wheels should be in the solo speed range and they do have a positive effect on Amod weight cars.

    I've looked at those but I've never been able to find ANY drag/downforce data on them despite contacting most of the manufacturers. I once saw mention that they produce 600# of downforce, not sure at what speed. Presumably they do something but maybe they're more form than function?

    old fartUser is Offline
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    21 Jan 2012 03:55 PM
    Pontoontodd: I agree that drag/downforce info is lacking. Sprint car (full size,not mini) are 5x5 on top and 2x3 nose . All top wings and some nose have asymmetrical side boards which act as rudders when the car is "backed into" a turn. Photos of nonwing cars show the car leaning to the outside while winged cars lean into the turn. The wings are moveable at speed ( hydraulic rams or electric motors) to move the center of pressure foreward or back( some may also move laterally). The (tops) are very light weight(top surface sags around the structural members at speed). Angle of attack is also variable on the top in motion. Nose wings run very high angles of attack. Top wings are too big to consider,but nose wings 24x75 with 18 degree angle of attack measured by our rule equal about 10square ft. Minisprint top wings are usually 4x4 with nose wings 18x30,thus 18degrees on a75 in span combo of 24 chord top and 18 chord nose is under 20 square. Two of the two element wings I mentioned above should be under 20 square also. At a five run event not for points out of region I did two runs w/wings, two w/out and two more with. Second two were 5 seconds slower than the first two and the last two were 7 seconds faster than w/out. Perhaps all in my mind ,but I liked the extra 2 seconds. I run for dfl in Amod but in 2010 my presence created a fifth place trophy. John Milton said,"they also serve who only stand and wait." The fun is in being there and the prep (including "nattering" about wings."
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