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Last Post 03 Feb 2012 09:14 AM by  Zelse
SP Re-org and new BSP...Who's in?
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NJGT3
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03 Oct 2011 03:22 PM
Braun is an Alien, he can win a Tour in Super Stock with a bone stock S200.

Skytices are running 315 A6 on fat wheels at all corners, so they are like the C5/C6 Vettes of BSP. Evo cannot run 315s. Turbo cars in SP gain plenty with E85 and ECU tune. A Coxster cannot do this.

The lowest weight that can be achieved in SP trim for a Cayman R (the latest lightweight version of the Coxtser) is 2,701 lbs with no A/C no radio, PCCB and all the legal lightening available in SP. They put 285 whp bone stock, and with proper tuning they can get in the 350 whp range (expensive work, multi throttle bodies adapted from a RSR, headers, no emissions, E85, etc). Biggest front tire that fits is a 285, at the back you can run any size, but anything bigger than 315 would make it push too much.

This Cayman R BSP build is sort of an unicorn, a expensive one indeed, $90k out of the showroom, plus another $60k on upgrades, I would rather buy a bone stock 2010 GT3 for that money, and keep some change.

Another option could be to move the 986 platform to the slower BSP class, and keep the 987 platform in the new ASP, as they got the nicer engines in 2009, and the lightest body parts in 2011.

Marshall Grice
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03 Oct 2011 03:46 PM
NJGT3 wrote:
The lowest weight that can be achieved in SP trim for a Cayman R (the latest lightweight version of the Coxtser) is 2,701 lbs with no A/C no radio, PCCB and all the legal lightening available in SP.

So how many thousands does it take to get the 30lbs out of carl's boxster? 90k? I think 2731lbs is close enough.

Marshall Grice
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03 Oct 2011 03:54 PM
NJGT3 wrote:
Braun is an Alien, he can win a Tour in Super Stock with a bone stock S200.

Skytices are running 315 A6 on fat wheels at all corners, so they are like the C5/C6 Vettes of BSP. Evo cannot run 315s. Turbo cars in SP gain plenty with E85 and ECU tune. A Coxster cannot do this.

The lowest weight that can be achieved in SP trim for a Cayman R (the latest lightweight version of the Coxtser) is 2,701 lbs with no A/C no radio, PCCB and all the legal lightening available in SP. They put 285 whp bone stock, and with proper tuning they can get in the 350 whp range (expensive work, multi throttle bodies adapted from a RSR, headers, no emissions, E85, etc). Biggest front tire that fits is a 285, at the back you can run any size, but anything bigger than 315 would make it push too much.

This Cayman R BSP build is sort of an unicorn, a expensive one indeed, $90k out of the showroom, plus another $60k on upgrades, I would rather buy a bone stock 2010 GT3 for that money, and keep some change.

Another option could be to move the 986 platform to the slower BSP class, and keep the 987 platform in the new ASP, as they got the nicer engines in 2009, and the lightest body parts in 2011.

also note worthy that Braun more than covered the .7sec gap per side needed to do well in a pro even though he is down, according to the internet, over 100hp compared to the evo's.

ratt_finkel
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03 Oct 2011 03:56 PM
Marshall Grice wrote:
NJGT3 wrote: Man, you're mean to poor Carl. 2 secs is the ball park?

I don't think there is much left to do on Carl's Boxster, he might gain another 0.5 secs, and write fat checks for frequent engine rebuilds if he tries to exceed 7400 rpm with these Porsche grenade M96 motors. So far he has blown two engines already, these Boxster/Cayman engine are that bad.

Being 1.5 secs behind the current BSP top dogs, means that the BSP Boxster would be as fast as a B-stock car.

Jason's BSP S2000 is an amazing piece of car (I want it ! I want it !), definitely faster that Carl's BSP build, put them to test and you'll find out.

Neither Jason's S2000 or Carl's Boxster can compete against the Evo on fair terms, much less at a Pro.

I don't see anything wrong with the Evo, Nissan GTR, Porsche 993, 996 and 997 Turbo, Audi R8 being in the same class. AWD dominated SP class (call it the new ASP), then use BSP for everything else that was in the class, with some minor shuffling in the current CSP/BSP/ASP.

Maybe 2700lbs is too heavy for the 275-15's, and maybe they're too short for his gearing. Trust me I know how small of a difference 2 seconds is. The skystice guys have been making the exact argument for a while now and I think Braun just cleared that up in blytheville.

OUCH! Had a bad day! Geez! Good skystice course too. Would've been great for anything that wasn't an EVO actually lol

The Nebulizer
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03 Oct 2011 04:12 PM

I'm planning to give the new BSP a shot in my e46 M3 - mostly out of frustration with the horrible job the STAC is doing by failing to create classes members are asking for from cars that are actually competing and only creating a class that no one is asking for or driving except a member of the STAC.

I don't expect the e46 M3 to be very competitive and won't be prepping to the max of the class - probably just STU with R comps (only 295 or less as I won't be flaring my fenders) - but at least I can get away from the STi/Evos and find some little cars to get frustrated with instead.

AutoX Z
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03 Oct 2011 04:36 PM
The Nebulizer wrote:

I'm planning to give the new BSP a shot in my e46 M3 - mostly out of frustration with the horrible job the STAC is doing by failing to create classes members are asking for from cars that are actually competing and only creating a class that no one is asking for or driving except a member of the STAC.

I don't expect the e46 M3 to be very competitive and won't be prepping to the max of the class - probably just STU with R comps (only 295 or less as I won't be flaring my fenders) - but at least I can get away from the STi/Evos and find some little cars to get frustrated with instead.

I don't see any reason the E46 won't be competative in the new BSP. It has almost all the same abilities as a 370Z and they're keeping that car in ASP cause it's so much faster.

christoc
I'm an Admin
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03 Oct 2011 05:04 PM
The Nebulizer wrote:

I'm planning to give the new BSP a shot in my e46 M3 - mostly out of frustration with the horrible job the STAC is doing by failing to create classes members are asking for from cars that are actually competing and only creating a class that no one is asking for or driving except a member of the STAC.

I was going to reply with "what?" but then I realized you were talking about ST. That being said, I think that the new SP class structure should prove interesting, and if I can find the budget I will be building my 350z as best I can.

Without budget I plan to at least do a diff and seats this fall/winter, though I don't get the luxury of an off season :D Damn this bay area weather and events all year round :D

The Nebulizer
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03 Oct 2011 05:13 PM
AutoX Z wrote:

I don't see any reason the E46 won't be competative in the new BSP. It has almost all the same abilities as a 370Z and they're keeping that car in ASP cause it's so much faster.

I should have said I don't expect my e46 M3 to be competitive and that I don't expect the e46 M3 to be the car to have. It could probably be reasonably competitive with the right setup including 335s. But, along the same lines the M coupe should be better with the same engine, less weight, and shorter wheelbase.

DrJones_CMR
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04 Oct 2011 07:20 AM
ratt_finkel wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
NJGT3 wrote: Man, you're mean to poor Carl. 2 secs is the ball park?

I don't think there is much left to do on Carl's Boxster, he might gain another 0.5 secs, and write fat checks for frequent engine rebuilds if he tries to exceed 7400 rpm with these Porsche grenade M96 motors. So far he has blown two engines already, these Boxster/Cayman engine are that bad.

Being 1.5 secs behind the current BSP top dogs, means that the BSP Boxster would be as fast as a B-stock car.

Jason's BSP S2000 is an amazing piece of car (I want it ! I want it !), definitely faster that Carl's BSP build, put them to test and you'll find out.

Neither Jason's S2000 or Carl's Boxster can compete against the Evo on fair terms, much less at a Pro.

I don't see anything wrong with the Evo, Nissan GTR, Porsche 993, 996 and 997 Turbo, Audi R8 being in the same class. AWD dominated SP class (call it the new ASP), then use BSP for everything else that was in the class, with some minor shuffling in the current CSP/BSP/ASP.

Maybe 2700lbs is too heavy for the 275-15's, and maybe they're too short for his gearing. Trust me I know how small of a difference 2 seconds is. The skystice guys have been making the exact argument for a while now and I think Braun just cleared that up in blytheville.

OUCH! Had a bad day! Geez! Good skystice course too. Would've been great for anything that wasn't an EVO actually lol

I think the saturday course favored the GXP/RL more than the Sunday course. Top speed in 2nd gear for the GXP is 61/62 mph. Jeremy said the Evo was around 67 mph.

On Saturday we were shifting into 3rd before getting to the Wallom and could hold it past the Wallom for the next couple turns. On sunday we would have been shifting to third part way into the Wallom and had to shut it down pretty quickly as the finish turns after the Wallom were quite a bit slower. Matthew and and I decicded to ride out the limiter in 2nd on Sunday. I'm sure Jeremy was all over the rev limiter too, but with a 5mph advantage.

The times between Matthew and Jeremy were much closer on Sunday too. I think part of the problem for Jeremy's times on saturday were a cone on the first run, a HUGE spin through the wallom on the 2nd run and had to make a conserative 3rd run to keep in the running. And Braun whipped off one hell of a 3rd run on saturday.

hippie350z
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04 Oct 2011 08:30 PM
I'm in for at least a couple tours, and now that it's a 2wd class (fingers crossed) nationals are a strong possibility, work/life permitting.
Grantsfo
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Posts:101


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17 Oct 2011 10:27 PM
Couple of corrections. With both 986 and 987 Boxsters on same line you can use much more reliable M97 motor rather than more problematic M96. m97 handle SP modifications fine.

The "Cockster" can run 315 tires with no problem under SP rules. Solstice has no advantage there. My FP Boxster ran 315 with simple flare.

If I were to run a 3.4 m97 powered early model Boxster I'd run little taller and wider tire than carls skinny 275s. Heck my stock powered 2.5 Boxster pushed 18x12 wheels with 315s to fast time of day for FP on Nationals West course and 3rd overall. Thats with 180 WHP. A 3.4 should easily make over 300 WHP.

I know carls car pretty well. He still has further weight reduction he can grab in very common SP mods. For example he is still running full steel rotors. I had a source lined up to do custom aluminum hat rotors for my Boxster before I sold it. There are plenty of other little SP legal tricks to get that car under 2700 lbs and these motors aren't ticking time bombs as much as some people might think. Especially when used for autocross. Plenty of well documented ECU , induction and exhaust mods available. Light weight flywheels pulleys etc.

Again still scratching my head how 2650 to 2700 lb Boxster with M97 that is capable of making in excess 300 WHP wouldn't be in same class as z34 370z? Z might make a little more hp but it pays huge penalty for lots more weight. I think best I can do is somthing in range of 2950 lbs but still will have significant front weight bias compared to Boxster and other cars. Z's suffer from inability to put power down out of slow turns or in low traction situations.

Finally 370 z has a big butt. The car is much wider than most of the cars in that class. It's over 2 inches wider than early model Boxster.

I like challenges so I will give the 370z my best shot but honestly I don't see it running competively with the boost buggies or the Boxster.

lowside67
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18 Oct 2011 09:56 AM
Then there is the S2000... I suspect a BSP build should be able to come in around 2400lbs, have a 2.2L motor making 230whp, physically small chassis, and excellent suspension out of the gate... that's the one I'm nervous of.

Mark
solo-x
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19 Oct 2011 10:58 AM
lowside67 wrote:
Then there is the S2000... I suspect a BSP build should be able to come in around 2400lbs, have a 2.2L motor making 230whp, physically small chassis, and excellent suspension out of the gate... that's the one I'm nervous of.

Mark

I think you're weight estimate is a bit optimistic. I could be wrong, but I think low 2600's is probably closer to reality. Personally, I hope the S2k is competitive, as that is the next car I'd like to build. Looking at some of the competition though there are other cars I think are faster.

spaf
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19 Oct 2011 12:19 PM
solo-x wrote:
lowside67 wrote:
Then there is the S2000... I suspect a BSP build should be able to come in around 2400lbs, have a 2.2L motor making 230whp, physically small chassis, and excellent suspension out of the gate... that's the one I'm nervous of.

Mark

I think you're weight estimate is a bit optimistic. I could be wrong, but I think low 2600's is probably closer to reality. Personally, I hope the S2k is competitive, as that is the next car I'd like to build. Looking at some of the competition though there are other cars I think are faster.

If you can find a good way to deal with the fuel starve 2500 flat is doable with an AP2, maybe an AP1 is a little lighter, not sure. You're probably 20% low on the power estimate. My BSP car was in the 2500's before soft top allowance and was making significantly more power, albeit on a DynaPack, but there was still some room for improvement on both weight and power.

mlane350z
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20 Oct 2011 07:12 PM
......and it's done. Nov Fastrack is out...
lowside67
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20 Oct 2011 07:52 PM
So Boxster / Cayman are ASP now... interesting :) S2000 still sounds like the car to beat for the new BSP though a well prepped and well driven BSP E36 M3 is probably a very capable car.
bstock05
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20 Oct 2011 09:27 PM
After looking at results of nationals, why is the STi even considered for ASP just because its AWD/ turbo? It has not had a good showing and has as well been getting beat up by sky/solstice and Evos. Some have been saying no one has really built a well prepared BSP sti, and drive the hell out of it, is that more the case than its potential?
John V
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21 Oct 2011 08:20 AM
Where is the E90 / E92 BMW M3 in this re-org?

mlane350z
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21 Oct 2011 09:01 AM
I don't see the E92 M3 listed at all....
AutoX Z
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21 Oct 2011 09:05 AM
I don't think the E90 was ever classed prior to the re-org. I would assume it would go to ASP, do not pass go, do not collect national championship.
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