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Last Post 03 Feb 2012 02:19 PM by  snaponbob
Legal fender flares?
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Marshall Grice
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18 Jan 2012 05:43 PM

    legal or not legal?

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36150537&postcount=242

    JBrettHowell
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    18 Jan 2012 06:05 PM
    not in sp
    lowside67
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    18 Jan 2012 06:28 PM

    Definitely pretty sweet for a street-mod setup though! But yes, not legal for street-prepared. The rules are very clear - you can add a flare to an OEM fender, not replace a fender with one with a flare on it.

    ratt_finkel
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    18 Jan 2012 06:35 PM
    Holes or not, I wouldn't feel comfortable running those in SP.
    mlane350z
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    18 Jan 2012 06:39 PM
    Nope.
    actor
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    18 Jan 2012 06:58 PM
    Legal!

    He still has the oem fenders and hasn't gone beyond the face of the hub.
    Marshall Grice
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    18 Jan 2012 07:28 PM
    lowside67 wrote:

    Definitely pretty sweet for a street-mod setup though! But yes, not legal for street-prepared. The rules are very clear - you can add a flare to an OEM fender, not replace a fender with one with a flare on it.

    it's not a replacement fender, it is a stock fender with an add on flare.

    My hang up with it is where does it say you can add holes in your flares? I mean clearly the holes are an aerodynamic advantage and just as clearly they are not there for tire clearance. you can't do that to your stock fenders as you're only allowed to modify fenders for tire clearance. The fender allowance isn't unrestricted, otherwise what's preventing me from just putting louvers on my stock fenders as long as it's outboard of the hub face? Whats preventing me from bolting a wing to my front fender and calling it a "flare"?

    snaponbob
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    18 Jan 2012 07:44 PM
    15.2.A says

    Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
    where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
    face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead).

    Since ALL it says is "tire clearance", all the aero stuff could be protest bait. Frankly, at Solo speeds it probably wouldn't matter one bit.

    Marshall Grice
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    18 Jan 2012 07:44 PM
    I think with out the holes it's legal, and with the holes it's an aerodynamic downforce generating device...and illegal.
    mlane350z
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    18 Jan 2012 08:12 PM
    There is no way with those holes it would be legal IMO. It has nothing to do with tire fitment.
    Robert Puertas
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    18 Jan 2012 08:13 PM
    Marshall Grice wrote:
    I think with out the holes it's legal, and with the holes it's an aerodynamic downforce generating device...and illegal.

    I don't know if it generates any downforce, but those holes would certainly reduce lift...

    actor
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    18 Jan 2012 08:13 PM
    Seriously, Marshall?! You start talking aero advantage, then you're going to have to throw out rear and front spoilers and splitters, too.

    Fender flares, within the confines of what I said earlier, are free, so if he decided to put an aero Hello Kitty themed flare, he could.

    And Bob, you're citing the fender rules, not the flare rules
    madlib
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    18 Jan 2012 08:25 PM

    Like I wrote in the other forum.

    A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes
    the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
    where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis
    or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
    face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead). Flares may be added
    although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
    complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic
    and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
    clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.

    Isn't it still a flare even with or without the holes? There are many shapes and sizes of flares out there and that is how my flare looks like. This is my reasoning for the legality of the flare.

    With that said, I understand that you are saying it's not legal because the rules doesn't explicitely say you can add holes/vents. So following that logic, why would the Prepared class rules state:

    L. The contour of the fender may be altered (flared) for tire clearance
    provided the modifications do not confuse the identity of the car. Only
    standard production ventilation openings on the specific recognized
    model are permitted.
    Tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Fender
    wheel openings may be trimmed to provide tire clearance throughout
    the full range of suspension travel, but no more than is necessary for
    this purpose.

    Why wouldn't it just say "fenders may be flared as per Street Prepared" like in SM, if you think SP rules don't allow holes/vents? Because of this, I believe the flare rule in SP is a little more open to interpretation.

    snaponbob
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    18 Jan 2012 11:00 PM
    actor wrote:
    Seriously, Marshall?! You start talking aero advantage, then you're going to have to throw out rear and front spoilers and splitters, too.

    Fender flares, within the confines of what I said earlier, are free, so if he decided to put an aero Hello Kitty themed flare, he could.

    And Bob, you're citing the fender rules, not the flare rules

    Section 15.2.A is basically saying you can mod the fender for clearance. Later in 15.2.A it expands on that a little, but repeats wording about clearance. The premise is still in play that if it does not say you CAN, then you CAN'T. Saying that an allowance for flares makes it "free" does not make it so. The rule ONLY says one can modify the fender or add flares, and says nothing else. So, assuming the rule is "free" would allow one to have a large forward leaning of any size and shape one wants, and thus the "flare" would be a wing. (This was referenced earlier in this thread.) Now, THAT would be "free". And that interpretation holds no water.

    Marshall Grice
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    Posts:303


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    18 Jan 2012 11:26 PM
    actor wrote:
    Seriously, Marshall?! You start talking aero advantage, then you're going to have to throw out rear and front spoilers and splitters, too.

    Fender flares, within the confines of what I said earlier, are free, so if he decided to put an aero Hello Kitty themed flare, he could.

    And Bob, you're citing the fender rules, not the flare rules

    Uh, spoilers and splitters have a specific allowance, that's not what we're talking about. Show me where you're allowed to cut holes in your fenders. I'm not talking about increasing the size of the wheel wheel opening for tire clearance, i mean cutting holes in your fenders for aero performance gain.

    I don't think I need to remind a SPAC member that if it doesn't say you can, you can't.....do i?

    Perhaps I'm missing the part where it says you can add flares and then remove the parts you don't want to make the most "lift reduction".

    Marshall Grice
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    18 Jan 2012 11:33 PM
    actor wrote:

    Fender flares, within the confines of what I said earlier, are free,

    and I specifically disagree with this. Fender flares are not "free". they're allowed to extend the fender to provide tire clearance, that's all 15.2.A says.

    Marshall Grice
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    Posts:303


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    18 Jan 2012 11:40 PM
    madlib wrote:

    Like I wrote in the other forum.

    A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes
    the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
    where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis
    or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
    face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead). Flares may be added
    although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
    complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic
    and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
    clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.

    Isn't it still a flare even with or without the holes? There are many shapes and sizes of flares out there and that is how my flare looks like. This is my reasoning for the legality of the flare.

    With that said, I understand that you are saying it's not legal because the rules doesn't explicitely say you can add holes/vents. So following that logic, why would the Prepared class rules state:

    L. The contour of the fender may be altered (flared) for tire clearance
    provided the modifications do not confuse the identity of the car. Only
    standard production ventilation openings on the specific recognized
    model are permitted.
    Tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Fender
    wheel openings may be trimmed to provide tire clearance throughout
    the full range of suspension travel, but no more than is necessary for
    this purpose.

    Why wouldn't it just say "fenders may be flared as per Street Prepared" like in SM, if you think SP rules don't allow holes/vents? Because of this, I believe the flare rule in SP is a little more open to interpretation.

    sorry I dragged you into this, but Karen kicked us out of her thread so might as well just settle it here. Better here than in the protest tent.

    The prepared rules are not built upon the SP rules like SM is so saying something like "flared per SP" doesn't makes sense like it does in the SM rules.

    Also I'd say that if "fender flares may be added" was it's own subsection I would totally agree with your interpretation. But in the context of 15.2.A you're limited to modifications that allow tire clearance only.

    madlib
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    19 Jan 2012 01:47 AM
    It's cool. I may be pushing the rules, but with the way the rule is written, I still feel I'm within the rules. Like I said before, a vented flare is still a flare. If the rule was changed with similar wording to the Prepared rules, I would agree with your interpretation.
    boxboy
    Advanced Member
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    Posts:512


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    19 Jan 2012 02:44 AM
    Marshall, this seems similar to issues we have in SM rules where the rule can be fairly open, or even unrestricted. Things like fascias which are unrestricted would imply you can do whatever you want, but at what point is it no longer considered a fascia if you have functionally changed it and provided aero function (like a diffuser, or endplates on the front end, etc). PC's will likely just stop at the "unrestricted" word and say go right ahead. I suppose it is possible that the mods to an item have gone beyond the simple understanding of the definition of that item, and might still be found illegal. Point being, has enough been done to the flare that the PC would not consider it a flare?

    -Andy M.
    snaponbob
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    19 Jan 2012 09:11 AM
    boxboy wrote:
    Marshall, this seems similar to issues we have in SM rules where the rule can be fairly open, or even unrestricted. Things like fascias which are unrestricted would imply you can do whatever you want, but at what point is it no longer considered a fascia if you have functionally changed it and provided aero function (like a diffuser, or endplates on the front end, etc). PC's will likely just stop at the "unrestricted" word and say go right ahead. I suppose it is possible that the mods to an item have gone beyond the simple understanding of the definition of that item, and might still be found illegal. Point being, has enough been done to the flare that the PC would not consider it a flare?

    -Andy M.

    You have succinctly shown what is basically defective in the Solo rule book. It's poorly crafted. 15.2.A could be amended to say "no other purpose can be served by installed flares", or something like that. Examples are everywhere that either are unclear, nonsensical, contradictory, or (in this case) not quite "closed" enough. Of course, beside 15.2.A not ALLOWING extra holes in the bodywork, there is the LETTER of the rules and the INTENT of the rules.

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