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Last Post 03 Feb 2012 02:19 PM by  snaponbob
Legal fender flares?
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lowside67
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19 Jan 2012 09:15 AM
Marshall Grice wrote:
lowside67 wrote:

Definitely pretty sweet for a street-mod setup though! But yes, not legal for street-prepared. The rules are very clear - you can add a flare to an OEM fender, not replace a fender with one with a flare on it.

it's not a replacement fender, it is a stock fender with an add on flare.

I thought those looked like fiberglass to me, that's why I thought it was replaced...

MattP
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19 Jan 2012 10:48 AM
actor wrote:
Seriously, Marshall?! You start talking aero advantage, then you're going to have to throw out rear and front spoilers and splitters, too.

Fender flares, within the confines of what I said earlier, are free, so if he decided to put an aero Hello Kitty themed flare, he could.

And Bob, you're citing the fender rules, not the flare rules

Bill has it right. The stock fenders are not modified beyond the allowances, and 'flares may be added'. "If it says you can, you damn well can." It puts no restriction on those flares. Doesn't say 'unless they have holes' or 'unless they make downforce' or 'unless they appeared in Fast and the Furious'.

Heck, you could put downforce generating fender flares, like that on a dirt late model if you really wanted.

You could stick a bunch of plastic fish to the fender for a flare!

Marshall Grice
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19 Jan 2012 10:49 AM
boxboy wrote:
Marshall, this seems similar to issues we have in SM rules where the rule can be fairly open, or even unrestricted. Things like fascias which are unrestricted would imply you can do whatever you want, but at what point is it no longer considered a fascia if you have functionally changed it and provided aero function (like a diffuser, or endplates on the front end, etc). PC's will likely just stop at the "unrestricted" word and say go right ahead. I suppose it is possible that the mods to an item have gone beyond the simple understanding of the definition of that item, and might still be found illegal. Point being, has enough been done to the flare that the PC would not consider it a flare?

-Andy M.

In SM you have an allowance to replace/modify. no caveat of "for tire clearance", just flat out replace them with whatever you want for whatever reason you want (including aero). the "fenders may be flared as per SP" is weird. Of course you have the option of doing it the SP way in SM, 16.1.A already says you can, why the need to repeat it in an allowance that says fenders are unrestricted?

I would consider the SM rule to be HUGELY different than the SP rule where there is a stated limit.

JBrettHowell
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19 Jan 2012 11:00 AM
So if my fender flares incorporate a twin-element wing with uprights attaching to the flare and bridging across the hood (let's make the uprights a couple/three feet high so the wing does not block the driver's vision), this would constitute a legal pair of fender flares? Awesome...this combined with my custom inboard suspension will be sure to make me popular with the PC.
MattP
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19 Jan 2012 11:07 AM
JBrettHowell wrote:
So if my fender flares incorporate a twin-element wing with uprights attaching to the flare and bridging across the hood (let's make the uprights a couple/three feet high so the wing does not block the driver's vision), this would constitute a legal pair of fender flares? Awesome...this combined with my custom inboard suspension will be sure to make me popular with the PC.

Well, at what point does it stop being a fender flare? I suspect a protest committee would take a dim view of the over hood portion of that, or really any change inboard of the hub face...

To furter clarify based on above photo: Fender fish OK, hood lobsters, not OK...

boxboy
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19 Jan 2012 11:16 AM
snaponbob wrote:
.

You have succinctly shown what is basically defective in the Solo rule book. It's poorly crafted. 15.2.A could be amended to say "no other purpose can be served by installed flares", or something like that. Examples are everywhere that either are unclear, nonsensical, contradictory, or (in this case) not quite "closed" enough. Of course, beside 15.2.A not ALLOWING extra holes in the bodywork, there is the LETTER of the rules and the INTENT of the rules.

Your are quite right Bob. And who writes the rulebook? WE do. Insert predictable "volunteer your time" line here.

-Andy M.

Steve Hoelscher
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Posts:831


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19 Jan 2012 11:28 AM

A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes
the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis
or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead). Flares may be added
although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic
and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.


Marshal is correct. The SP rules are very literal. Thus the statement "if it doesn't say you can, then you can't". In the quote above it says you can modify the fender for tire clearance. It also says a flare may be added. However, nowhere does it say the fender or flare can have non-standard holes in them. Thus, said holes/vents are in excess of the allowance. That is unless you can demonstrate that the holes are necessary for wheel/tire clearance.

Marshall Grice
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19 Jan 2012 11:35 AM
MattP wrote:

Bill has it right. The stock fenders are not modified beyond the allowances, and 'flares may be added'. "If it says you can, you damn well can." It puts no restriction on those flares. Doesn't say 'unless they have holes' or 'unless they make downforce' or 'unless they appeared in Fast and the Furious'.

Heck, you could put downforce generating fender flares, like that on a dirt late model if you really wanted.

Section 13.1?

"If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous sections of these Rules, it is not allowed. The addition of small holes for attachment hardware for authorized modifications is implicit (e.g., holes for fasteners to mount additional gauges, holes for brackets to mount shock absorber remote reservoirs, etc.). However, these holes may serve no other purpose."

No where in 15.2.a "flares may be added" do i see an allowance to add holes to your flare. I also don't see any where that says flares are unrestricted. Stock class has a limit on adding holes to things that I quoted above. I think claiming that a flare "looks like it has holes in it" is a tortured interpretation of the allowance to add flares.

atcovan
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19 Jan 2012 12:00 PM
"Non standard fender holes are da-bomb, providing they don't cause any 'significant' aero effect at typical autocross speeds. Primer coatings are to be considered too ghetto and body parts (human body art excluded) must comply with appearance standards."This should be good for at least a dozen pages trying to define 'significant.'
snaponbob
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19 Jan 2012 12:10 PM
Marshall Grice wrote:
MattP wrote:

Bill has it right. The stock fenders are not modified beyond the allowances, and 'flares may be added'. "If it says you can, you damn well can." It puts no restriction on those flares. Doesn't say 'unless they have holes' or 'unless they make downforce' or 'unless they appeared in Fast and the Furious'.

Heck, you could put downforce generating fender flares, like that on a dirt late model if you really wanted.

Section 13.1?

"If a modification is not specifically authorized in this or previous sections of these Rules, it is not allowed. The addition of small holes for attachment hardware for authorized modifications is implicit (e.g., holes for fasteners to mount additional gauges, holes for brackets to mount shock absorber remote reservoirs, etc.). However, these holes may serve no other purpose."

No where in 15.2.a "flares may be added" do i see an allowance to add holes to your flare. I also don't see any where that says flares are unrestricted. Stock class has a limit on adding holes to things that I quoted above. I think claiming that a flare "looks like it has holes in it" is a tortured interpretation of the allowance to add flares.

+1

madlib
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19 Jan 2012 12:11 PM
It also says a flare may be added. However, nowhere does it say the fender or flare can have non-standard holes in them.

Here's the thing though...how can you say a flare can have non-standard holes. That was the way the flare was designed, so they are standard holes.

The rules say you can cut away at the fender and bumper up to a certain point. That would solve most of the tire issues right there, no fender flare needed. You can drive around with most of your fender cut away and your wheels sticking 3" out. I can tell you for a fact...it is not a pretty sight.

So why include "flares may be added" because it is a way to hide all that mess and make the car look at least a little decent. The flare rule is not just there for tire clearance issues only, but also an appearance one as well.

As for SM saying fenders are unrestricted. It's because they are allowed to replace the whole fender including the material they are made of. They are not required to have a piece of the OEM fender still there.

snaponbob
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19 Jan 2012 12:13 PM
boxboy wrote:
snaponbob wrote:
.

You have succinctly shown what is basically defective in the Solo rule book. It's poorly crafted. 15.2.A could be amended to say "no other purpose can be served by installed flares", or something like that. Examples are everywhere that either are unclear, nonsensical, contradictory, or (in this case) not quite "closed" enough. Of course, beside 15.2.A not ALLOWING extra holes in the bodywork, there is the LETTER of the rules and the INTENT of the rules.

Your are quite right Bob. And who writes the rulebook? WE do. Insert predictable "volunteer your time" line here.

-Andy M.

I truly believe the "offer" would not go anywhere. Or, I would.

Steve Hoelscher
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Posts:831


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19 Jan 2012 12:31 PM
madlib wrote:
It also says a flare may be added. However, nowhere does it say the fender or flare can have non-standard holes in them.

Here's the thing though...how can you say a flare can have non-standard holes. That was the way the flare was designed, so they are standard holes.


If the fender didn't come with holes, any holes are therefore "non-standard". And its non-standard regardless of whether or not they are part of the added flare. The flare itself, because you are "adding" it, is by definition, "non-standard". You can't define holes on an aftermarket part as "standard" because that's the way the part was made. The part itself is a modification to the standard car.


madlib
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19 Jan 2012 12:57 PM
Ok, I understand. If the SP rules had the same wording as Prepared class rules, I would agree with you.
Marshall Grice
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Posts:303


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19 Jan 2012 01:21 PM
15.1.B:
"Street Prepared vehicles may only be modified in excess of Stock Category rules in the following ways. Any modification not specifically authorized by the Stock Category or Street Prepared rules is prohibited. No unauthorized modifications are permitted in order to accommodate authorized modifications (e.g., non-stock hood scoops or holes necessary for carburetor clearance)."

you've got no specific authorization for fender vents. just because vents aren't explicitly denied doesn't mean that they're implicitly allowed. "flares may be added" is not an unrestricted allowance.

scardeal
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19 Jan 2012 01:32 PM
Forget about the holes. The flare can be shaped without holes so that it contributes to downforce without any holes. The real question is whether there's any restriction on the shape of the flares, or whether the flares have to cover 180 degrees around the wheel, etc. The only way to nip this (admittedly clever) flare question is to state in the rule that it is not to provide any aero advantage.
MattP
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19 Jan 2012 01:44 PM
scardeal wrote:
Forget about the holes. The flare can be shaped without holes so that it contributes to downforce without any holes. The real question is whether there's any restriction on the shape of the flares, or whether the flares have to cover 180 degrees around the wheel, etc. The only way to nip this (admittedly clever) flare question is to state in the rule that it is not to provide any aero advantage.

In my opinion, that doesn't fix the problem (if it is indeed a problem). As we've seen in the ST aero stuff, it's very hard to define aero advantage beyond limiting the size of the element. I suggest constraining the size of the flares (may not be more than x inches from the body, can't extend beyond fender seam on the inside, etc.)

FWIW the SPAC hasn't gotten any letters about these flares in particular, or the general openness of the flares allowance...

BigEnos
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19 Jan 2012 01:51 PM
Based on the text from the link that says only the amount needed to be cut from the fender was cut, and that these flares are merely a fascia over top, I'd say they are legal. The rule says that flares may be added. I have seen garden edging, ugly sheetmetal, bad fiberglass, and some really nice work, too. No where in the rules does it say the flare has to be a certain size, shape, design, taste, color, or workmanship. Based on all reasonable judgement, what is pictured is a valid fender flare and can be used.

If louvers (sp?) on the top of a faux fender are a valid aerodynamic element I'm gonna need that one explained to me. That being said, a giant wing-shaped flare with endplates probably won't pass muster as just a "fender flare." Clearly such a thing would rise to the level of being a significant aerodynamic aid and would not be legal.

The above is not the official line of the SPAC and should not be construed as such. It is just my opinion.

BTW the car looks damn good with those things.

mlane350z
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19 Jan 2012 01:53 PM
BigEnos wrote:
Based on the text from the link that says only the amount needed to be cut from the fender was cut, and that these flares are merely a fascia over top, I'd say they are legal. The rule says that flares may be added. I have seen garden edging, ugly sheetmetal, bad fiberglass, and some really nice work, too. No where in the rules does it say the flare has to be a certain size, shape, design, taste, color, or workmanship. Based on all reasonable judgement, what is pictured is a valid fender flare and can be used.

If louvers (sp?) on the top of a faux fender are a valid aerodynamic element I'm gonna need that one explained to me. That being said, a giant wing-shaped flare with endplates probably won't pass muster as just a "fender flare." Clearly such a thing would rise to the level of being a significant aerodynamic aid and would not be legal.

The above is not the official line of the SPAC and should not be construed as such. It is just my opinion.

BTW the car looks damn good with those things.

Brian, you can see the light on top of the tires, clearly they are enclosed on the OEM fenders. If that is what you were referring too.

BigEnos
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19 Jan 2012 02:00 PM
I don't think that tells me whether there is a fender behind them or not, only that light can shine through.

I just wanted to state my assumption that the modifications to the original fender were not in excess of the rules.
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