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Last Post 03 Feb 2012 02:19 PM by  snaponbob
Legal fender flares?
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MattP
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Posts:350


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20 Jan 2012 12:04 PM
Ok whatever, write a letter:

www.sebscca.com

How does one add a flare for tire clearance?
MattP
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:350


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20 Jan 2012 12:05 PM
Marshall Grice wrote:
Oh I got another one!Since fender flares are *unlimited* I'm going to put a supercharger in my fender flares!hahah i crack me up.

Great, totally legal, until you connect it to your intake and spin the pulley with the engine...

Marshall Grice
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Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:13 PM
MattP wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
Oh I got another one!Since fender flares are *unlimited* I'm going to put a supercharger in my fender flares!hahah i crack me up.

Great, totally legal, until you connect it to your intake and spin the pulley with the engine...

whaaaa? all the sudden flare's have limits? I don't see where it says I can't connect it to my intake and spin it with the engine.

JBrettHowell
New Member
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20 Jan 2012 12:24 PM

Hey folks - check out the new fender flares I grafted onto the fenders of my Civic!

AutoX Z
Basic Member
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Posts:231


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20 Jan 2012 12:24 PM
Marshall Grice wrote:
MattP wrote:Can your heat shield have a hole in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your alternate seat have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your strut bar have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your alternate shift knob have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...

Indeed they can.

none of the rules you listed begin with "may be modified for tire clearance".

the allowance to add flares is not in it's own stand alone section of the rules. If it were I would be in agreement 100% that you could do whatever you want with fender flares, but its not. it's in a rule that says you may only do these things for tire clearance. The holes in the top of the fender flare in question, I guarantee you, are not there for tire clearance and thus not legal under 15.2.A.

i'll gladly accept those holes as legal if i see that a tire (any tire) can't clear the flares at those points.

Read the rule more carefully. The FENDERS may be modified for tire clearance. It goes on to say that FLARES may be added, that's it. It has no restrictions on what that flare can or can't be.

Everybody here knows that they want the rule to say the flares can't serve some other purpose than protecting your paint from thrown rocks. The point is that the rule currently does not restrict flares to that extent.

Marshall Grice
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:29 PM
AutoX Z wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
MattP wrote:Can your heat shield have a hole in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your alternate seat have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your strut bar have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...Can your alternate shift knob have holes in it? It doesn't say you can...

Indeed they can.

none of the rules you listed begin with "may be modified for tire clearance".

the allowance to add flares is not in it's own stand alone section of the rules. If it were I would be in agreement 100% that you could do whatever you want with fender flares, but its not. it's in a rule that says you may only do these things for tire clearance. The holes in the top of the fender flare in question, I guarantee you, are not there for tire clearance and thus not legal under 15.2.A.

i'll gladly accept those holes as legal if i see that a tire (any tire) can't clear the flares at those points.

Read the rule more carefully. The FENDERS may be modified for tire clearance. It goes on to say that FLARES may be added, that's it. It has no restrictions on what that flare can or can't be.

Everybody here knows that they want the rule to say the flares can't serve some other purpose than protecting your paint from thrown rocks. The point is that the rule currently does not restrict flares to that extent.

The flare is an allowed modification to the fender, it is not a stand alone addition.

MattP
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:350


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20 Jan 2012 12:29 PM
Marshall Grice wrote:
MattP wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
Oh I got another one!Since fender flares are *unlimited* I'm going to put a supercharger in my fender flares!hahah i crack me up.

Great, totally legal, until you connect it to your intake and spin the pulley with the engine...

whaaaa? all the sudden flare's have limits? I don't see where it says I can't connect it to my intake and spin it with the engine.

Intake and pulley allowances have limits. You can make your fender flares out of empty NOS bottles for all the rules care...

mrazny
Basic Member
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Posts:462


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20 Jan 2012 12:32 PM

I would think the *additional* material is free. If it's grafted onto the existing fender, that thing can be literal swiss chesse. Hopefully not the too stinky kind. If it's the "flared" portion of the existing OEM fender, then yeah, demonstrate the tire clearance for your holes.

(i don't know why my brain cramped on the "easy" button tire clearance... must be the cold)

Marshall Grice
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:32 PM
MattP wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
MattP wrote:
Marshall Grice wrote:
Oh I got another one!Since fender flares are *unlimited* I'm going to put a supercharger in my fender flares!hahah i crack me up.

Great, totally legal, until you connect it to your intake and spin the pulley with the engine...

whaaaa? all the sudden flare's have limits? I don't see where it says I can't connect it to my intake and spin it with the engine.

Intake and pulley allowances have limits. You can make your fender flares out of empty NOS bottles for all the rules care...

ok fair enough, a turbo then! intake system is open and exhaust is open and my "fender flare" is unlimited!

hahaha

solo-x
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1244


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20 Jan 2012 12:32 PM
Sorry, I'm late to party. Marshall, where do you see limitations to the flares? I see limitations to how much you can cut the fender and bumper, but I don't see anything limiting the flare.

15.2 BODYWORK

Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.2 as specified herein.

A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead).

At this point in the allowance no mention of flares has been made. Everything here pertains to modification of the fender/bumper.

Flares may be added although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.

And here is the part of the allowance that permits the installation of fender flares. No restrictions are placed on the flare except that you can't replace the entire fender with something you call a flare.

I competed against this car in 2010 at nationals and lost. I was 100% fine with the fender flares at that time and still am. You can write a letter as Matt said, but IMHO there is nothing here that needs clarification.
solo-x
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1244


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20 Jan 2012 12:35 PM
Marshall, with all due respect, you're _really_ pushing the limits of devil's advocate here. A turbo? Really? Cole could shoot holes through that "logic". ;-)
MattP
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:350


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20 Jan 2012 12:37 PM

Marshall Grice wrote:

ok fair enough, a turbo then! intake system is open and exhaust is open

Congratulations, you're the first person to have ever thought of that...

Marshall Grice
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:39 PM
solo-x wrote:
Marshall, with all due respect, you're _really_ pushing the limits of devil's advocate here. A turbo? Really? Cole could shoot holes through that "logic". ;-)

i agree completely. just being creative is all. :)

solo-x
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1244


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20 Jan 2012 12:41 PM
BTW, you have unanimous agreement from 3 different SPAC members, I think we can shut this one down now. :-)
Marshall Grice
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:42 PM
solo-x wrote:
Sorry, I'm late to party. Marshall, where do you see limitations to the flares? I see limitations to how much you can cut the fender and bumper, but I don't see anything limiting the flare.

15.2 BODYWORK

Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.2 as specified herein.

A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead).

At this point in the allowance no mention of flares has been made. Everything here pertains to modification of the fender/bumper.

Flares may be added although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.

And here is the part of the allowance that permits the installation of fender flares. No restrictions are placed on the flare except that you can't replace the entire fender with something you call a flare.

I competed against this car in 2010 at nationals and lost. I was 100% fine with the fender flares at that time and still am. You can write a letter as Matt said, but IMHO there is nothing here that needs clarification.

I feel you're taking the 'add flare' allowance out of context in the way you present it here. out of context it doesn't even say i have to put this so callled 'flare' on the fender.

Marshall Grice
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:303


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20 Jan 2012 12:45 PM
solo-x wrote:
BTW, you have unanimous agreement from 3 different SPAC members, I think we can shut this one down now. :-)

with all due respect, it's the protect committee (at the time, if it were ever protested) that would need to agree to "shut it down". and I believe we have at least one previous protest committee member in here saying it's illegal.

solo-x
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1244


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20 Jan 2012 12:48 PM
Sorry, make that 4 SPAC members. Write a letter if you wish, I think you're pretty safe in guessing the response.

ps. Straws. They're _just_ out of reach, eh?



actor
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:315


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20 Jan 2012 12:52 PM
I will be seeing Marshall this weekend. I'll take him out back and we'll settle this like men.
snaponbob
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Posts:2862


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20 Jan 2012 12:57 PM
Steve Hoelscher wrote:
snaponbob wrote:
BigEnos wrote:
No. You can't remove metal from the fender in excess of what is needed for tire clearance. So if you can't show that the metal you removed would interfere with your tire you can't remove it. Period. That is illegal and it's very clearly stated as such.

That is not what 15.2.A says. It does not even HINT at that. As it relates to the fender, it restricts modification of the stock sheet metal inboard of a specified point, but there is no reference to how big the opening can/can't be. That said, if one were to simply start hacking away at the fender to the point it could be seen as weight reduction, then there would be a different problem.

15.2 BODYWORK

Vehicles may only exceed the allowances of 13.2 as specified herein.

A. Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance. This includes the portion of a hood which serves as a fender/wheel well,
where applicable. This does not permit modifications to the chassis or bodywork inboard of the vertical plane of the hub/wheel mounting
face (at rest, with front wheels straight ahead). Flares may be added although tires may extend beyond the bodywork. Replacement of
complete hood, flared fenders, or quarter panels is prohibited. Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be modified for tire
clearance and for installation of fender flares as allowed herein.

Bob, the very first sentence in A is: "Fenders and bumpers may be modified for tire clearance". That sentence defines the purpose and limitations of the rule. That statement prevents someone from cutting the majority of the OE steel fender back to the end of the adjacent bodywork and then overlaying a complete replacement fender (of a lighter material). You can't cut material away in excess of that required for tire clearance.


I would certainly accept that. But it opens the Pandora's box of LETTER vs INTENT of the rule. And then one is at the mercy of the Protest Committee.

snaponbob
Veteran Member
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Posts:2862


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20 Jan 2012 01:01 PM
JBrettHowell wrote:

Hey folks - check out the new fender flares I grafted onto the fenders of my Civic!

ILLEGAL if you compete with the doors open. Nyuck nyuck nyuck !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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