An open letter to the community,

When they first announced the coming street tire stock classes last year, I wrote a long letter to Howard Duncan about how I really hope that they're not trying to decide the future fate (tire-wise) of stock class based on participation in the upcoming RT classes. He assured me that it was only a small piece in the puzzle, and yet here we go, in the SoloMatters today, with Hardy saying, "it's time to put up or shut up."

Well, Hardy, I'm doing neither. I desperately want street tires in stock classes. Desperately. However, I'm not going anywhere near RT, at least not in the car I'd want to run there (an S2000). Splitting it up by drivetrain was a good start, but fundamentally, if you want to run stock cars on street tires, it requires a full class redesign, from the ground up.

In the RTR class, a mid engine low power car like the SS Elise or ES MR2 are going to just absolutely dominate the class, and if they don't, it's because someone's not driving it right. As someone who used to daily drive an SS Elise on Z1s, I can affirmatively state that it's the car to have (or at least be on parity with the MR2). The Elise suddenly becomes the fastest car in stock class, the Corvette is probably relegated to a BS car or so (it can't even use its power on R comps, much less on street tires), the WRXs, Evos, and STis all jump up to being AS or SS cars, etc. The RX-8 probably bumps up, the 350Z probably bumps down. The current classing structure is nuked. Trying to pretend that it's truly applicable in a new tire class is just sheer silliness.

So, as long as we try to run the old stock classing with a set of completely different grip:weight ratios, we're only fooling ourselves. Some people will certainly jump, but most of the top level stock class drivers won't go. Including me.

If you want to make what I consider an absolutely necessary change in stock class to street tires, then do it. But please god don't do this and then pretend that it bears any resemblance to the community's desire for street tires in stock, and if it has low participation numbers then assume that it's not what people want. It is what people want, but the most important thing in autocross is a perception of fair competition. As long as that's not there (which it isn't in RT), the competitive drivers are going to keep staying in the proper, vetted stock classes, despite it not being where they want to be.

david,

i have the same concern; the classes will need to be shaken up entirely. but... in order to do that, the scca/howard/whoever needs to collect REAL competitive data of all the cars running on street tires (at a top/competitive level... not from local competition). so while the current classing system and pax values do not work for stock classes without R-comps... i see this as a necessary step to gather enough data to build a new set of classes and/or indices.

IMHO.

v

I agree data needs to be collected, but I worry that this way isn't going to be any better than collecting data from local street tire classes, since it's going to be the same people, in the same cars, just with an official instead of regional class this time...

David, you are correct in that PAX will not fully equalize the times, as well as the unavoidable need to revamp classes. But it has to start somewhere. If the participation levels are not there, the initiative should die on the vine. This will be interesting to watch.

If the initiative dies on the vine, though, they've clearly stated that they will equate that with not wanting street tires in stock. This is what I want to avoid...

I agree. I think it's unrealistic to expect a wholesale change of the classes overnight. This is a step in the right direction. I will only cry foul if they give up on the classes after too short of a period of time (like only 1 year). Pretty much all classes take some gestation time (ok, not STR, but *most*).

Dave G.

I agree that the current classing will be off a little in the RT RWD, FWD, and AWD classes, but if you and the rest of the guys that want street tires in stock do not show up for the Tours we cannot expect a change of this size to the rules.

If this class fails (it needs 2-3 years to grow like any new class) it will be proof for the people that want to keep R-comps in stock that they are correct.

In the end I think it will be like any class with 3-4 top cars and the rest also ran’s.

I plan on making the Texas Tour driving a S2000 CR in RTR.

I get David's concern. While you have to start somewhere, I believe it will be a hard sell to convince many serious competitors to jump ship to a "test class" in a platform that will not be competitive for a few years in hope that the SCCA will then restructure stock classes and their car can again be competitive.

-Nate

I was told by Howard during a candid conversation about this last October, that the goal of this new program was to boost local/regional drivers to participate in Tours and Pro. This was to "solve the problem" of local drivers who do not compete with R-compound tires that would otherwise not race at a Tour or Pro, because they did not want to purchase the race rubber. I see this as an avenue to increase participation at National-level events, rather than a Step #1 To Make Street Tires In Stock Rule Change.

I really don't understand your argument about a lack of parity between cars in these new street tire classes. Hasn't that always been the case? Certain cars are overdogs for the class and the "ones to have" and others are not. It's impossible to have 100% parity when different cars are racing in the same class. Take S2000's in BS for instance. Nobody bothers showing up to Nats in anything other than an S2000 and BS is practically a spec S2000 class. You talk about parity, but you drive a car that is a clear class overdog (S2000 CR). It sounds like to me a case of the pot calling the kettle black and you don't like this new idea because it may not cater to your particular car and situation and you may no longer have "the car to have."

You're missing the point entirely, and douchily attacking, but I'll elucidate anyway.

Right now there's 9 stock classes. Within each class, there's usually an overdog car, but the classes are separated so that there's at least several different separated places to play. They're now throwing everyone together into 3 classes, and pretending that the PAX values for the stock class cars, which are now on street tires, are remotely relevant in the new regime. Sure, you can just say "it's a new world, go buy an elise or MR2 and run in the new class", but that's not really the point -- the point is to try to provide a competitive atmosphere. I can show up to BS in a 370Z, an S2000 CR, or even an AP1 S2000, and be competitive on any given day, and especially at an NT, could win with a good drive. There's a perceived (real or not) car-to-have in each class, but there's usually lots of other cars within a hair or two of that car, because the classes have been fairly carefully monitored over the years to place cars within remote levels of parity. This is no longer the case -- they're taking PAX values for cars on one grip:power/weight level, and trying to make an entirely new class based off those same values, even though they've changed drastically.

There won't be any real competition in RTR most of the time, because people like us are smart enough to know that unless you have a mid engine car, you'd be showing up to a gunfight with a knife. Those good drivers with a mid engine car won't bother showing up either, because they know the previous fact, which is that the other competition won't be there either. So, you're going to end up with it being an exact copy of most of the regional street tire classes (packwood and san diego tours both already have street tire index classes) which are usually local underprepared cars, and will not be representative of the true new PAX mix. It might start to help determine new class construction, but it's not going to be truly representative of top level competition like they're hoping it will.

My codriver owns an S2000 CR which I usually drive, but we'll be in BS with it, not RTR -- we already have a place to play with it. If it were remotely competitive in RTR, we'd much rather go play there (way cheaper and less of a pain in the ass), but it's not, for the reasons above, so we won't. I'm also building an SSM car which I hope to run most of next year. I also have a DS WRX, which should be a fantastically perfect car for RTA, but I doubt I'll bring it out to that either. So, no, I'm not the pot calling the kettle black. I'm someone who loves autocross and wants to see stock go where it should go -- to street tires -- and is seeing the dream vanish before his eyes because it looks like SCCA is putting all their eggs in one crappy basket.

That's good to know. It worked at least for me, no way I was going to buy R-comps for 1-2 events or show up in B-stock on street tires and get my a$$ handed to me.

I prefer the local PAX street tire class over B-Stock because it has much better competition, and also a lot cheaper for me.As I tend to do around 30+ events per year and R-comps were breaking the bank.

"You're missing the point entirely, and douchily attacking, but I'll elucidate anyway."


Not an attack David, just simply an observation. You want to run the S2000 CR on street tires while still carrying the advantage you hold now in BS. I get it.

There are differences between an advantage, close but unequal competition, and a slaughter. An S2000 CR in RTR would be the latter.

My codriver and I were the ones who wrote the letters to SEB last month asking to move the S2000 CR to AS to sink it, btw.

The CR would destroy AS in its current form FWIW.

That's debatable. Either way, it would mean we could sell it and get an equally fun S2000 to drive competitively for half the price.

David

It seems odd that in one spot you say that you won’t bring a knife to a gunfight. Then say that RTR won’t have any real competition. Seems like a S2000 CR would be fun, an underdog car (I don’t think it’s that much of an underdog) against soft competition (I also think it’s not going to be soft for very long).

I am looking forward to the class. Hopefully we will be treated as Nat competitors and not local hacks that got a soft class to boost numbers.

Robert Jones

When a hack in an Elise can cream you in your non-mid-engined car, that's not competition.

You are being treated as a national class -- for now. Until they deal with parity issues, though, it's going to be mostly subscribed to by regionals.

While no one can deny that there should definitely be some restructuring going from race tires to street tires, I think you are exaggerating the effects. I would be extremely suprised if an elise or MR2 end up being the car to have in rwd street tire...

A lot of people are going to show up knowing they won't win just to support the greater cause. I'll be one. Its not exactly a "bringing a knife to a gunfight" situation, more like a "air rifle in a fire fight." Really doesn't matter much since I couldn't shoot particularly strait with either.

I'm planning to run a National event for the first time since the sunset event at Forbes Field because RT sounds like fun, a lot of my friends support it, and I can justify the tire expense to my wife.