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Last Post 12 Feb 2010 09:00 AM by  Cobra
First draft of the Class Rules Proposal
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chriskrumnow
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19 Jan 2010 08:51 AM
    <!--[if gte mso 9]> Normal 0 false false false EN-US X-NONE X-NONE MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 <!--[if gte mso 10]> 2.1.6 Annual Awards

    The annual points recorded during the year for each member shall be summarized as soon as possible after the last event of the year. Suitable awards shall be awarded at the annual banquet to the winner of the following categories:

    • Regional Achievement Awards
    • Solo Awards:
    • National Solo Driver of the Year
    • Regional Solo Trophies
    • Regional Solo Driver of the Year
    • Regional Solo Lady Driver of the Year
    • Solo Rookie of the Year
    • Solo Event of the Year
    • Solo Cup
    • Rally Awards:
    • Regional Rally Trophies
    • Rallyist of the Year
    • Rally Event of the Year
    • Road Racing Awards:
    • National Driver of the Year
    • Regional Driver of the Year
    • Rookie Driver of the Year
    • Special Awards:
    • Competition Chairman's Award
    • Solo Director's Award
    • James F. Lang Memorial Trophy
    • Jim Chausse Memorial Award

    2.3 Solo Awards

    The Solo Awards shall be distributed as follows.

    2.3.1 Regional Solo Trophies

    Fort Wayne Region members who participate in the Fort Wayne Region Solo Series shall be awarded a yearend trophy if they have finished in a trophy awarding position in at least one Fort Wayne Region Solo event during the current year. Regional Solo Trophies shall be presented at the annual Fort Wayne Region Awards Banquet. The Class Championship trophies will be combined with the event results trophies. The following are the ways to receive a trophy.

    a) RSVP for the year end banquet

    b) Advise the Solo Director by the RSVP date that the person wants their trophy.

    2.3.3 Regional Driver of the Year Presented to the Solo driver competing in the Open Class that displays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo Events. Regional Class Trophies

    They are presented to the Solo driver competing in the each regional class that displays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo Events.

    2.3.3.1 Winner Determination

    The winner will be the individual who achieves the highest performance ranking utilizing the Fort Wayne Region Solo Series Scoring System.

    2.3.3.2 Fort Wayne Region Solo Series Scoring System

    a) The person finishing in overall first place for an event, based on class Indexes, gets 100 points, regardless of the number of entries.

    b) The person finishing in overall last place for the event, based on class Indexes, gets 1 point.

    c) Any person who does not enter the event gets 0 points.

    d) Every finisher between first and last is evenly spaced between 1 and 100 points.

    e) Score for the Series is the sum of the driver's best five (5) events. Highest score at the end of the season is the Series winner.

    a) First Place gets 20 points. Each following place gets 1 point less. No one gets less than 1 point for competing.

    c) Any person who does not enter the event gets 0 points.

    d) To qualify for a Class championship you must be a member of the Fort Wayne Region before the last event.

    e) The competitor with the highest sum score in their class at the end of the season is the class winner.

    2.3.3.3 Class Indexes

    Class Indexes are the same as published under the RTP/PAX Index for the current competition year on the Chicago Region Website. Regional Level Class Index values shall be included in the class definition in Section 4.1.2.

    2.3.3.4 Ties In case of ties, multiple awards will be presented.

    4. REGULATIONS GOVERNING FORT WAYNE REGION SCCA SOLO EVENTS

    All rules and regulations as stated in the current SCCA Solo Rule Book and amendments are applicable to Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo events. The following local rules are in addition to or supersede those stated in the SCCA Solo Rule Book. Event Chairmen should also consult the current Solo Event Master's Guide for more information.

    4.1 Automobile Classes

    The following Classes shall be offered at all Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo events.

    4.1.1 National Level Classes

    All Car Classes specified in the current year SCCA Solo Rules Book for National level Solo competition shall be offered.

    4.1.2 Regional Level Classes

    Regional classes may be offered as deemed necessary by the Solo Director with concurrence of the Board of Directors. Previously existing Regional Level Classes must be reaffirmed on an annual basis prior to the first regional Solo event of the calendar year.

    4.1.2.1 Regional Class Street Mod Street Tire (SMT)

    4.1.2.1.1 All rules for the National Class Street Mod (SM) are applicable with the following exception: Tires must comply with sections 14.3.B (minimum tread wear rating) and 14.3.C (Street Touring tire exclusion list).

    4.1.2.1.2 The Class Index for SMT is the average of the Class Indexes of STU and SM as published under the RTP/PAX Index for the current competition year on the Chicago Region Website.

    4.1.2.1.3 Super Street Mod (SSM) classed vehicles are not eligible for regional class SMT

    4.1.2.2 Pro class

    This class is for competitors that have an insurmountable advantage over normal regional competitors. This advantage could be due to any number of reasons. Tire choice, car choice, and experience level would be examples of types of advantages. This class is completely voluntary. Any competitor in the Pro class will not be eligible for any other class championship award.

    a) The winner will be determined by the use of the PAX and use the Fort Wayne Region Points system.

    b) The award will be given at the year end banquet.

    c) Multiple awards will be in the case of ties.

    4.1.2.3 Novice Class

    This class is only open to competitors that have not competed in more than 4spoiled their events in the past 2 years previous to the current season. Once a competitor has spoiled their Novice standing, there is no going back into the novice class. It is up to the competitor to register themselves as a Novice.

    a) The winner will be determined by the use of the PAX and the Fort Wayne Region Points system.

    b) The award will be given at the year end banquet.

    c) Multiple awards will be in the case of ties.

    4.1.2.4 Lady Solo Driver of the Year

    Presented to the lady Solo driver competing in any Class who displays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo events.

    a) The winner will be determined by the use of the PAX and the Fort Wayne Region Points system.

    b) The award will be given at the year end banquet.

    c) Multiple awards will be in the case of ties.

    2.3.4 Regional Solo Lady Driver of the Year

    Presented to the lady Solo driver competing in the Ladies Class who displays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo events. A woman winning the National Solo Driver of the Year or Solo Driver of the Year is not eligible for the Solo Lady Driver of the Year award, and the trophy shall be awarded to the next eligible woman (if applicable).

    2.3.4.1 Winner Determination

    The Winner will be determined in the same manner as explained for the Open Classes (see paragraph 2.3.3.1above).

    2.3.4.2 Ties

    In case of ties, multiple awards will be presented.

    Peppler33CS
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    19 Jan 2010 07:57 PM

    Just a few comments to make things more clear. I'm not saying I don't agree by any means, I just want to spell it out a bit more. I also having a bit of hard time with just this cut-out of the bylaws.. I looked on the new website and I don't see the current bylaws linked anywhere (maybe I missed it?). If not, we should post it back up.

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    FortWayne Region members who participate in the Fort Wayne Region Solo Series shallbe awarded a yearend trophy if they have finished in a trophy awarding positionin at least one Fort Wayne Region Solo event during the current year. RegionalSolo Trophies shall be presented at the annual Fort Wayne Region AwardsBanquet. The Class Championship trophies will becombined with the event results trophies. The following are the ways to receive a trophy.

    I may be a bit of an organization freek, but I'm a bit confused. The first sentence talks about a year end trophy and then it talks about a class champoinship trophy. So if I'm the only one in my class that day, then that means an automatic year end trophy right? Have we defined what trophy awarding position is? We should probably spell it out.

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    The Class Championship trophies will becombined with the event results trophies.

    Does this mean no more trophy plaques at the end of each event? Or only trophy plaques handed out at the end of the event for non-members (majority of new people)?

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    2.3.3Regional Driver of the Year Presented to the Solo driver competing in theOpen Class that displays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA SoloEvents. Regional Class Trophies Theyare presented to the Solo driver competing in the each regional class thatdisplays outstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo Events.

    . So I get the Regional Driver of the Year is the top driver in the Open "Pro" class based on scording listed in 2.3.3.1. But then it talks about Regional Class Trophies, are these considered part of Regional Driver of the Year which is what 2.3.3 is defining? It sounds like you need a new subset of numbers.. like 2.3.3.a = Regional Driver of the Year (Pro class), 2.3.3.b = Class Championship Driver of the Year. Maybe I'm nitpicking here, but if I'm a bit confused maybe new people would be also. It may be that I don't have the original bylaws and maybe I'm missing stuff you may have cut to show the proposed changes.

    chriskrumnow wrote:

    2.3.3.2Fort Wayne Region Solo Series Scoring System

    a)The person finishing in overall first place for an event, based on classIndexes, gets 100 points, regardless of the number of entries.

    b)The person finishing in overall last place for the event, based on classIndexes, gets 1 point.

    c)Any person who does not enter the event gets 0 points.

    d)Every finisher between first and last is evenly spaced between 1 and 100points.

    Hmm, I personally don't like giving someone just 1 point. I see other regions giving a minimum of 20 points which I like. For example in your proposal, lets say the bottom 5 people get 1 ,9, 15, 23, 28 points a piece. I propose in the same order the points would be 20, 20, 20, 23, 28.

    Actually, I like the GASS/Great Lakes divisional points system. Bill and Travis are probably familiar with this scoring system. 1 point for last place just doesn't sit well with me, its like "hey you showed up, but you would have done about the same in points if you stayed on your couch all day".

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    e)The competitor with the highest sum score in their class at the end of theseason is the class winner.

    So what about people who run different classes during the year.. (J Massey cough cough [:P]), the only get points for the class they run right? So if you want to run for the class championship, you should stick in the same class for at least 5 events... no problem here just clarifying it a bit.

    chriskrumnow wrote:

    4.1.2.2Pro class

    Thisclass is for competitors that have an insurmountable advantage over normalregional competitors. This advantagecould be due to any number of reasons. Tire choice, car choice, and experience level would be examples of typesof advantages.

    This doesn't sit well with me with the talk about all the "advantages". Just say something like "This class is a volunatry PAX index class that does not compete in the class championship, but is required to qualify for the Solo Regional Driver of the Year award". All this talk about "advantages" is not necessary in the bylaws.

    chriskrumnow wrote:
    4.1.2.1.2 The Class Index for SMT isthe average of the Class Indexes of STU and SM as published under the RTP/PAXIndex for the current competition year on the Chicago Region Website.

    Uhhh, we just had a long post with input from Rick Ruth where we discussed SMT index. I guess it would need to be voted on, but I propose a 70% STU 30% SM weighted average.

    And final thoughts, we talk about Regional Driver of the year and Class Championship winners. Do we do anything for 2nd/3rd/etc place?

    Again, this is just what I'm thinking when I read your proposal. I figure you posted it to get feedback, so here you go! Whew, this was easily my longest post ever!!!

    FWR Solo D
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    19 Jan 2010 08:06 PM
    I think we should just make it really easy and simple and give everyone a trophy...
    RonConrad
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    19 Jan 2010 08:27 PM
    I don't think you should force people to run in your "Pro" class...keep it optional. Having an extra notch on your year end trophy stating class place should be all you need as far as Class standings. The Pro class could also count (for that extra notch). The problem has been that no one wants to be the one to keep track of all this data, and come up with the year end trophies that recognize all of these accomplishments (My wife Brenda used to do it with my help...it was a big chore, but worth it in the end). Other years they just gave out a trophy with no event details.
    Peppler33CS
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    19 Jan 2010 09:00 PM

    It says Open "Pro" class is voluntary in the proposal so all is good there.

    chriskrumnow
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    20 Jan 2010 08:18 AM
    For some reason the strike through font has not shown up. I am trying to resolve it.
    Bigblockbandit
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    21 Jan 2010 12:56 PM

    Just another point for thought, if you award points in decreasing 1s and person "X" wins all the races that year and misses one, persons 2,3,4... on the list only have to make one more race per year to win. seems its strictly a numbers game at that point. In our National points for RC combat it takes your best 20 round average as we fly 5 rounds or so per day. It makes it harder for someone to win just by showing up and does not penalize for missing an event. if the goal is to obligate people to come to more events and be rewarded with a trophy it may be a great scheme. I think it would turn off those who wanted to compete but could not make a full schedule.

    Just my .02

    sean

    wrheadle
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    21 Jan 2010 02:30 PM
    Peppler33CS wrote:

    Hmm, I personally don't like giving someone just 1 point. I see other regions giving a minimum of 20 points which I like. For example in your proposal, lets say the bottom 5 people get 1 ,9, 15, 23, 28 points a piece. I propose in the same order the points would be 20, 20, 20, 23, 28.

    Actually, I like the GASS/Great Lakes divisional points system. Bill and Travis are probably familiar with this scoring system. 1 point for last place just doesn't sit well with me, its like "hey you showed up, but you would have done about the same in points if you stayed on your couch all day".

    The system that is in place today was, to some extent, a political compromise from the previous version of the points system that awarded 1 point for first, 2 points for second, etc. Under that system, finishing last at a small event was worth the same points as a top third finish at a big event. The winner was the lowest point total, and yes, someone won with a total of 5 points from their best 5 events.

    The points system is something that can be changed, just be careful how much work it is to maintain. The system now is mostly automated in excel.

    chriskrumnow
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    21 Jan 2010 03:18 PM

    I WILL not put in my proposal anything like the divisional points. It gives too much of an advantage to the people that buy the right tire or car. It will severely punish and deter more novices. That IS a horrible idea! If you want it for the pro class fine. I will not even talk about it going into the open classes.

    The 20 points works out well because the only people that have a potential of getting one are the PRO, SMT and NOVice class. I liked the 10 point scale. It didn't punish you as much for not showing up. One of the things I don't like about the current system is that we don't award points for every event. You can't make up any ground for running an extra event. What other league doesn't punish you for not coming to all the events?

    Chris

    FWR Solo D
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    21 Jan 2010 03:58 PM

    Ok, strikethrough you propose to have removed or replaced.

    What does the underline mean? you are adding?

    chriskrumnow
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    21 Jan 2010 04:04 PM
    Yup underlined are proposed adding and strike through are proposed cuts.
    FWR Solo D
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    21 Jan 2010 04:57 PM

    So in summary from what I understand- this is what you are trying to accomplish:

    1. PAX/PRO Class created to movethe people out of the class, creating a class for the best of the best to shootout.

    2. Class Champs for FWR Members -With having the best of the best out of the classes, this gives a new FWRmember a chance at an end of the year trophy for their Class Champ. CreatesClass battles.

    3. Change points structure from 1st= 100 points and last (what ever it would be) 1 point to... 1st place 20 ptsand each place after one point less until reaching 1 and everyone 21st place toinfinity would get 1 pt.

    4. Novice class time frame changedfrom 1 yr to 2 yr with 5 events done

    5. Lady Region Drive instead of Lady Class winner.

    6. Removing Regional Class winner -class champs (PAX & all car classes) would replace this.

    These are my opinions - I havereplied in BOLD RED.

    2.1.6 AnnualAwards

    The annualpoints recorded during the year for each member shall be summarized as soon aspossible after the last event of the year. Suitable awards shall be awarded atthe annual banquet to the winner of the following categories:

    SoloAwards:

    • National Solo Driver of the Year
    • Regional Solo Trophies
    • Regional Solo Driver of the Year DO NOT LIKE THIS – NEEDS TO STAY
      • Essentially would be the PAX/PRO Class Winner
    • Regional Solo Lady Driver of the Year
    • Solo Rookie of the Year
    • Solo Event of the Year
    • Solo Cup

    2.3 Solo Awards

    The Solo Awardsshall be distributed as follows.

    2.3.1 RegionalSolo Trophies

    Fort WayneRegion members who participate in the Fort Wayne Region Solo Series shall beawarded a yearend trophy if they have finished in a trophy awarding position inat least one Fort Wayne Region Solo event during the current year. RegionalSolo Trophies shall be presented at the annual Fort Wayne Region AwardsBanquet. The ClassChampionship trophies will be combined with the event results trophies. The following are the ways to receive a trophy.

    Regional Trophy should be separatefrom Class Champ

    Regional Trophy is a combined for members finishes

    Class Champ get one NICE trophy with the class they oneand year

    a) RSVP for the year end banquet – nothing new here…

    b) Advisethe Solo Director by the RSVP date that the person wants their trophy. Trophy should be madeanyways and mailed or hand delivered to them. I do not think the winner shouldtell me this. We should make the effort to show them how special it was and agood job with their performance. I understand the mind thought on this –if they tell you they want a trophy, then you know how many and much you needto spend. Regardless – if you win a trophy – club should BUY IT and AWARD THEM.

    2.3.3 Regional Driver of the YearPresented to the Solo driver competing in the Open Class that displaysoutstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA Solo Events. Regional Class Trophies

    RegionalClass should not replace the regional driver of the year. In theory the PAX/PROclass that is developed would be your Regional Driver Award. Maybe word the PAX/PRO Class trophy winner isthe Regional Class award. It helps the focus of people to transition into amore competitive class. But the funnything – the Regional Award was always awared to the person with the most pointsat the end of the year and in return would be usually the best in PAX. It just seems wrong to remove the RegionalClass Award.

    They arepresented to the Solo driver competing in the each regional class that displaysoutstanding performance in Fort Wayne Region SCCA SoloEvents.

    2.3.3.1 WinnerDetermination

    The winner willbe the individual who achieves the highest performance ranking utilizing theFort Wayne Region Solo Series Scoring System.

    2.3.3.2 Fort Wayne Region Solo SeriesScoring System

    a) Theperson finishing in overall first place for an event, based on class Indexes,gets 100 points, regardless of the number of entries.

    b) Theperson finishing in overall last place for the event, based on class Indexes,gets 1 point.

    c) Anyperson who does not enter the event gets 0 points.

    d) Everyfinisher between first and last is evenly spaced between 1 and 100 points.

    e) Score forthe Series is the sum of the driver's best five (5) events. Highest score atthe end of the season is the Series winner.

    a) First Place gets 20 points. Each following place gets 1 point less. No one gets less than 1 point forcompeting.

    So, if thereare 21 or more in a class – everyone in that position gets 1 point. I see the logic of getting the points tighterfor people racing each other in their class. Is there a easy way to calculatethis? As Bill points out – this would need to be as easy as inputtinginto exceland moving forward. We have to keep it simple, because in the future – if Billdoes not do this – it would be an easy transition to the new person.

    c) Any personwho does not enter the event gets 0 points.

    d) Toqualify for a Class championship you must be a member of the Fort Wayne Region before the lastevent.

    e) Thecompetitor with the highest sum score in their class at the end of the seasonis the class winner.

    4.1.2.2 Proclass

    This classis for competitors that have an insurmountable advantage over normal regionalcompetitors. This advantage could be due to any number of reasons. Tire choice, car choice, and experience level would be examples of types ofadvantages. This class is completely voluntary. Any competitor inthe Pro class will not be eligible for any other class championship award.

    I like thisidea of Pro/Pax Class – It shows growth in the club at every event. A newperson can see that there is a next level beyond their Class winning. I know wehave some in our Region now that are on the line of either Pax or Class. I think you should have something in therethat is a fall out for someone that might have bit more than they could chew.

    For example: I am running in a Class Winner for the whole year and I do well and ormaybe pull off a class winner trophy at the end of the year. So the next year I think maybe I should trythe Pro class. I try it and I get mybutt handed to me. After one event – Youshould give the person a chance to back up into their present classing maybe.If you run the Pro Class a second event – then you are stuck and cannot return.

    Then you have someone like me – for real thistime. I might run in a different classevery time I run. Obviously I would not get a Class trophy. But if I win first in every class I competein – What do I get? Yes, personally I would have to win… I know – But thiscould happen. I know a few that car whore wuite a bit and in some cases thiscould be an instance where they would be left out of an end of the year trophy –other than the Regional trophy with all their places from the year on onetrophy.

    4.1.2.3Novice Class

    This classis only open to competitors that have not competed in more than 4spoiled theirevents in the past 2 years previous to the current season. Once acompetitor has spoiled their Novice standing, there is no going back into thenovice class. It is up to the competitor to register themselves as aNovice.

    Good idea totake it from 1 year to 2 years. SomeNovices might take them 2 years to complete 4 or 5 events.

    FYI - April 11th is the first event...and InFebruary there is a member meeting. I would love to see people show upfor this to comment on this particular matter. Please do not wait untilit is too late. If so - the points and stuff would have to wait till thefollowing year.

    wrheadle
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    21 Jan 2010 05:51 PM
    FWR Solo D wrote:

    The annualpoints recorded during the year for each member shall be summarized as soon aspossible after the last event of the year. Suitable awards shall be awarded atthe annual banquet to the winner of the following categories:

    SoloAwards:

    • National Solo Driver of the Year
    • Regional Solo Trophies
    • Regional Solo Driver of the Year DO NOT LIKE THIS – NEEDS TO STAY
      • Essentially would be the PAX/PRO Class Winner
    • Regional Solo Lady Driver of the Year
    • Solo Rookie of the Year
    • Solo Event of the Year
    • Solo Cup

    I agree. The National Driver of the Year is for competing outside the region (GLDiv series, GLDiv area Tours, GLDiv Championship, Nationals).

    I also feel that ladies awards need to be consistent. If there is a lady regional driver of the year, should be one for national as well and I think that the classes should have lady champs as well because the ladies classes are official classes.

    Bill

    chriskrumnow
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    21 Jan 2010 07:15 PM

    Bill,

    1. I forgot about the ladies driver of the year. I agree that we should have one.

    2. the ladies classes were already built in to the system because they are national classes. For example someone runs in hsl and hs. The person could be the HS or the HSL class champion. but not both. I need to address that issue by putting the more than half rule back in for the class champion.

    chriskrumnow
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    21 Jan 2010 07:45 PM

    Jason,

    I think it is best to drop the Region driver of the year. It will never effect me. I figure that if the people like Steve, Bill, Travis, and Scott want the name to stay the same. We might as well keep the name the same. No Biggie!

    Unfortunately, with our current timing software there is not an easy way to calculate the class championships. It will be creating more work for points addition. I am willing to help with this.

    I put the rsvp for the trophy section in there because we have trophies in the truck from years ago that no one ever claims. Why waste the money on making and sending a trophy that is not wanted?

    The truth is that the pro class is unattainable for 90% of the new people. We should keep this in mind whenever we changes to the rules. We have to keep the lower 90% involved. When we make rules for the exclusive top 10%, it will become increasingly more difficult to find volunteers. We want the club to look like a pyramid.right now it looks more like the Washington Monument.

    David Lehman
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    21 Jan 2010 10:17 PM

    These are your local rules right ?

    I saw all these words and my eyes just glazed over.

    Did one of you guys work on the healthcare bill ?

    PS.....and what about the guy that can't drive that well......how about a year end award for loudest fart at the drivers meeting ?

    wrheadle
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    22 Jan 2010 04:47 AM
    chriskrumnow wrote:

    I think it is best to drop the Region driver of the year. It will never effect me. I figure that if the people like Steve, Bill, Travis, and Scott want the name to stay the same. We might as well keep the name the same. No Biggie!

    What is the award for winning the pro class?

    Bigblockbandit
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    22 Jan 2010 06:17 AM
    chriskrumnow wrote:

    I WILL not put in my proposal...... That IS a horrible idea...... I will not even talk about it

    Chris

    Skipping the actual issues, just remember, in this process someone is submitting an idea/ proposal to the board or membership for approval. Statements like this usually create negative reactions from those you are trying to sway. Like it or dont its a political process and you require member support to make a change of this type. You are obviously passionate about this, dont shoot yourself in the foot early. Particularly true in a written forum like this...

    Sean

    wrheadle
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    22 Jan 2010 08:06 AM

    Bigblockbandit wrote:
    You are obviously passionate about this, dont shoot yourself in the foot early. Particularly true in a written forum like this...

    +1

    Keep the big goal in sight and listen to ideas. The end result is going to be a compromise to some extent and you will need to get people who may not agree with your ideas to vote in favor of it for it to happen. Defiance => defeat in politics.

    FWR Solo D
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    22 Jan 2010 08:15 AM

    Chris - Have you sent this in to be published in the newsletter?

    Also, might want to bring it up to members at the Banquet this Saturday. There will be 50 people there you could talk to.

    Lastly, if you want - I will post something on the FaceBook page I created. I would prefer a summary of what you are wanting to accomplish - not a long and confusing rule setup. Maybe something with your main bullet points your have concerns with and maybe we can get some constructive talk there as well. I could invite people to chat about it - get another source for ideas. But please keep the summary simple and easy to read or understand. If you want - I will post this up this weekend or tonight if you get me something. fwsccasoloprogram@gmail.com

    I mention these areas, because I am not sure how many members actual use these forums...

    You are not authorized to post a reply.
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