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Last Post 12 Feb 2010 09:00 AM by  Cobra
First draft of the Class Rules Proposal
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chriskrumnow
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22 Jan 2010 08:32 AM

No, I have not sent it in to the Drift. I will not be at the banquet. I was planing on taking tweaking it between now and the Feb board meeting. I will try to put something together for Facebook.

VerizonGuy
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23 Jan 2010 07:26 PM

I had a late job so I didn't make it there either. I was thinking you should break this down into smaller parts and go over them individually. Doing this all in one swoop is turning people off and confusing people.

Here what I would divide it:

  • Points
  • Car Class
  • Driver Class
CSP137
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24 Jan 2010 01:45 AM
VerizonGuy wrote:

I had a late job so I didn't make it there either. I was thinking you should break this down into smaller parts and go over them individually. Doing this all in one swoop is turning people off and confusing people.

I think Robert has a point. I is getting difficult to keep track of what parts people are reffering to. Here are my thoughts:

  • Pro/Pax Class: I think most people like this idea. Most like the idea of having it optional. I do not see a need to do away with the Regional Driver of the Year. In the past, it has been the one who wins the Pax for the year. I see no reason to change that.
  • Class Champrionships: I think it is a good thing to give drivers something to shoot for. (I remember shooting for class championships when I started) The year-end trophy said Class Champion on it as well as your trophy finishes on it - simple.
  • Class Champrionships: I do like the proposal of running more than half the events to qualify.
  • Class Champrionships: As far as the question of, "What if I run several classes?" The short answer is, "Pick one," You need to run more than half the events in that class. This is consistant with other sports. If you run 8 different classes and got first in each one, you still get a trophy with 8 1st places on it.
  • Points: I think this is where the debate is. Which ever way we do it, remember that we need to make it as simple as possible.
    • Chris's proposal is simple. It is easy to explain and easy to know your points on the fly. I like the suggestion of a bottom number other than one. Maybe it could be 1st=20, 2nd=19...10th=11, 9th=10. 8th=10... The only downside to this method is that there is no difference winning by a little and winning by a lot. This could be a good thing if an out of town hot shoe runs the regular class.
    • If we were to adopt the division series scoring system, it makes it harder to know where you stand during an event. I think it is the fairest system I've seen, but it is difficult to explain..

Steve Mieritz

wrheadle
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25 Jan 2010 11:50 AM

CSP137 wrote:

Points: I think this is where the debate is. Which ever way we do it, remember that we need to make it as simple as possible.

    • Chris's proposal is simple. It is easy to explain and easy to know your points on the fly. I like the suggestion of a bottom number other than one. Maybe it could be 1st=20, 2nd=19...10th=11, 9th=10. 8th=10... The only downside to this method is that there is no difference winning by a little and winning by a lot. This could be a good thing if an out of town hot shoe runs the regular class.

A couple other items on the points front.

First: How many events are counted?

Chris is in favor of counting them all. I can understand that and , for the rookie and class groups, I think it can make sense, if we make sure to consider why someone would miss an event and if that is acceptable to "punish" him or her for missing for that reason. I intentionally put a range of reasons in so that it is not a general agreement that all are right or all are wrong.

some examples:

an event was scheduled on top of a wedding anniversary, child's birthday, etc.

a driver's job sends them out of town or makes them otherwise unavailable to compete

a driver chooses to run a Division series event over a regional event

a driver has the flu and chooses to stay in bed that event

I think the Pro class needs to be a best of rule in that, if these drivers are truly looking to better themselves, they may choose to run an event outside of the FWR because of the site, the competition expected at that event, etc. We need to allow for this in the award rules (again, in my opinion). Whether it is best 5 events, drop worst 2 events, etc. can (and should) be discussed. I'm looking for thoughts on the concept rather than the details.

Second: Are all class wins at all events worth the same number of points? Obviously this is the mathematically simplest solution and maybe that is OK. I'm not sold one way or the other yet and this is my prime issue that I have not found an equitable solution for (do we scale points based on class size).

The better question is do we expand the top few finishing positions to reward winning? such as: 1st=20, 2nd=16. 3rd=13, 4th=11, 5th=10, 6th=9, etc. Other than SMS, we rarely have enough cars for a class to go more than 5 or 6 cars deep and we can make a cutoff at say, 5 points (10th place) such that any finish 10th or worse is 5 points. Still relatively easy logic in a spreadsheet and I think easy to understand. It also rewards running an event vs the single point for last which seems to be mostly not liked.

Bill

chriskrumnow
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25 Jan 2010 02:06 PM
I hit the reset button a couple of days ago. I was rethinking some of the ideas. This is how I should have proposed this idea from the beginning. The information I cited came from the November Drift newsletter.

I have been approaching this whole thing from a new person's perspective. I don't know where everyone else has been coming from. I do understand the PRO class will have different event priorities. I think that maybe we should have a slightly different system in place for the PRO class. 5 events or more than half rule for the pro class/ regional driver of the year will actually makes a lot of sense. These drivers are so closely matched that it the divisional points system could fit well. There is a lot of data to back that up. Last year we had 7 points events. Going by the info in the drift, our 24 members ran an average of 4.7 events or 113 event entries. 29 out of the 113 member entries would probably have been PRO entries. The Pro class members averaged 5.8 events last year. I guessed at the number of PRO class entries because it would have been voluntary. I guessed Steve, Scott, Bill, Travis, and Jerry would have put themselves in the PRO class. Working with 5 events would have given for a lot closer points race.

The class championship points can be done a lot different. If we count all the events and keep those class championships close with the 10,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 system. This system would not punish the person as severely for missing an event or two. We rarely go beyond 5 or 6 drivers anyway, most of which novices. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of novices don't drive in more than a couple of events each year. Those novices will have a little effect on the points race anyway. The significant points race last year would have come from the SMT. Brian, Kevin, John and Mark made up 24 of the 113 event entries.

By the way, only 2 members came to all 7 events. Brian Britten and Scott Lewis were the 2. There were 11 Weekend members that came to 3 events and 5 weekend members that came to 4 events. I can not tell if those 16 people are members of other regions.
Chris
bmonnin1
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26 Jan 2010 02:36 PM
chriskrumnow wrote:
I hit the reset button a couple of days ago. I was rethinking some of the ideas. This is how I should have proposed this idea from the beginning. The information I cited came from the November Drift newsletter.

I have been approaching this whole thing from a new person's perspective. I don't know where everyone else has been coming from. I do understand the PRO class will have different event priorities. I think that maybe we should have a slightly different system in place for the PRO class. 5 events or more than half rule for the pro class/ regional driver of the year will actually makes a lot of sense. These drivers are so closely matched that it the divisional points system could fit well. There is a lot of data to back that up. Last year we had 7 points events. Going by the info in the drift, our 24 members ran an average of 4.7 events or 113 event entries. 29 out of the 113 member entries would probably have been PRO entries. The Pro class members averaged 5.8 events last year. I guessed at the number of PRO class entries because it would have been voluntary. I guessed Steve, Scott, Bill, Travis, and Jerry would have put themselves in the PRO class. Working with 5 events would have given for a lot closer points race.

The class championship points can be done a lot different. If we count all the events and keep those class championships close with the 10,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 system. This system would not punish the person as severely for missing an event or two. We rarely go beyond 5 or 6 drivers anyway, most of which novices. Add to that the fact that the vast majority of novices don't drive in more than a couple of events each year. Those novices will have a little effect on the points race anyway. The significant points race last year would have come from the SMT. Brian, Kevin, John and Mark made up 24 of the 113 event entries.

By the way, only 2 members came to all 7 events. Brian Britten and Scott Lewis were the 2. There were 11 Weekend members that came to 3 events and 5 weekend members that came to 4 events. I can not tell if those 16 people are members of other regions.
Chris

Say what??? I'm an engineer and I couldn't follow that. I was told a long time ago that when I was trying to solve a problem to remember to give it a KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). Don't overthink the problem, Keep It Simple.

chriskrumnow
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26 Jan 2010 02:48 PM

I am sick of fighting with you guys. Do what you want. This is no longer worth my time. GOOD LUCK!

Chris

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26 Jan 2010 03:52 PM
chriskrumnow wrote:

I am sick of fighting with you guys. Do what you want. This is no longer worth my time. GOOD LUCK!

Chris

Well, though all the confusion - I am sure we have pulled some good ideas.

~ PAX Class

~ Class Champs

Beyond that, it does not need to be overly complicated with anything else (my opinion)

Chris - RELAX!

Peppler33CS
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26 Jan 2010 04:31 PM

Chris, you have very valid points.... its just the final plan needs to be simple and yet agreed upon and fair. You are getting feedback, some positive and some not so. Remember that feedback is the breakfast of champions! This isn't national healthcare or anything.

So far.. Pro class=check, Novice class=check, class point championship=need a little more work to get full buy in (my opinion) but probably close. Is there anything else that I have missed in your proposal?

As far as class championships, can we just leverage what other regions are doing? Its not like we are the only ones trying grow our membership and get new people excited about our "product".

The internetz makes it easy to bash and hard to communicate plans. Maybe the next solo meeting we can hammer it out, but it is going to be easier if there is a well layed out and easy to follow proposal.

And relax, we do this for fun right??

VerizonGuy
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26 Jan 2010 05:20 PM
Peppler33CS wrote:

Chris, you have very valid points.... its just the final plan needs to be simple and yet agreed upon and fair. You are getting feedback, some positive and some not so. Remember that feedback is the breakfast of champions! This isn't national healthcare or anything.

I thought we were close as well. How about this to go with your bacon, does axware do what we are talking about?

chriskrumnow
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26 Jan 2010 08:02 PM

I don't think we are anywhere near coming to an agreement on the class championship. I am walking away from this project because there is not enough support for it. I don't think we can come to an agreement about what is best for the club.

Chris

SpeedTeacher
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26 Jan 2010 08:19 PM

Chris,

Support comes from understanding. The pulse I am getting when I read this is that people aren't fully understanding it. I don't really see anybody saying you are way off base or anything. If you believe in it passionately and feel it is truly best for the success of the club, then flesh it out and present it in a way that hits the key points.

Maybe get with one of us to help in that aspect. Communication is sometimes a team event. Not a big deal.

And lastly... if people disagree with it, then go with it. My experience with RPM has been that many ideas have popped to the surface and rarely did one end up the way it started. Additional input made the ideas better and more relevant to the success of the project.

Todd

chriskrumnow
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26 Jan 2010 09:37 PM

Todd,

Thanks, but I really have washed my hands of this. I think I took it as far as I can. It's time for me to move on. Steve has my last draft.

I can take thoughtful disagreements. It's selfishness and greed that I have no time for. I think we cater to the wrong people. I tried to change that. I failed. Now I move on.

Chris

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26 Jan 2010 10:04 PM

"I am walking away from this project because there is not enough support for it. I don't think we can come to an agreement about what is best for the club. "

It is great that you are passionate about this and I understand your thoughts with marketing to the people we mostly serve.

Personally, I do not think you are talking to the whole club here on the forums. (Maybe 10 of us members?)

You should not give up just because 10 of us on here shared our opinions - but that is your choice.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

If you are not going to bring this up in February's meeting, I will so we can at least get members opinions there.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________

BTW:

"I can take thoughtful disagreements. It's selfishness and greed that I have no time for. I think we cater to the wrong people. I tried to change that. I failed. Now I move on."

Comments like this will not help your efforts. Just my $.02 worth.



bmonnin1
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26 Jan 2010 10:11 PM
chriskrumnow wrote:

I don't think we are anywhere near coming to an agreement on the class championship. I am walking away from this project because there is not enough support for it. I don't think we can come to an agreement about what is best for the club.

Chris

Chris, I don't disagree with the class championship proposal and definately don't disagree with the PAX class or the Novice class. Your post just need to be simple and to the point, that is all I was saying. Your post was complicated and extremely difficult to follow. Also don't be offended by the word Stupid in the last post I made, I wasn't calling you that, it is just part of the acronym K-I-S-S. I use that same acronym in my everyday work to remind me the simple solutions are usually the best.

FWR Solo D
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27 Jan 2010 05:27 AM
bmonnin1 wrote:
chriskrumnow wrote:

I don't think we are anywhere near coming to an agreement on the class championship. I am walking away from this project because there is not enough support for it. I don't think we can come to an agreement about what is best for the club.

Chris

Chris, I don't disagree with the class championship proposal and definately don't disagree with the PAX class or the Novice class. Your post just need to be simple and to the point, that is all I was saying. Your post was complicated and extremely difficult to follow. Also don't be offended by the word Stupid in the last post I made, I wasn't calling you that, it is just part of the acronym K-I-S-S. I use that same acronym in my everyday work to remind me the simple solutions are usually the best.

Bart - We use this K-I-S-S everyday at my job as well. When communicating to our customers, it is the only path to take!

Also - we have a Novice Class already, just not used very well. Something I can work with Reg on. And the Rookie of the year award...in theory I would think be your fastest/most points Novice Member..right? I know the Solo D usually picks this - if memory serves me right. I think your efforts you express in the club and winnings should be the Rookie Award or Novice Award, how ever you want to word it.

(Also, keep in mind we are talk to each other through a computer screen. Not having a face to face conversation about the situation is not helping. Never take things out of context just because it is on screen. I am sure when Bart said (wrote) KISS, he probably had a big laugh afterwards)

Bigblockbandit
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27 Jan 2010 06:11 AM

I deal with electrical rates often, they are complicated, full of strange fees and charges and very difficult to explain to people. The way I deal with it is to take the existing bill from a previous year and apply the new proposed changes to that data so they can see the results without having to understand how it works. In that fasion they can see what was last year against what changes are being proposed. I would recomend doing the same in this case. We have complete results for all events for an entire season. Make the proposed changes to last years data and compare how the results would change. If people can look at the current method vs the proposed method based on the same data they can decide how it affects themselves and the club. If it helps or does not hurt more members it will gain support. If it penalizes more than it helps it may not.

Sometimes you can argue and explain all day long but a simple thing like applying the proposed changes to past results will tell the story.

it is also correct that here you are talking with less than 10% of the club, and some guy on the toilet.

KBroeker
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27 Jan 2010 04:24 PM

Sean-

I don't care what rumors you hear, I do not post while on the toilet...

Jason-

I beileve you remember correctly that the Solo D does pick the Rookie/Novice of the year. It might be better if it was not based on opinion, though.

A quick idea for the nubies... Have a novice trophy based on strictly finishing time; no PAX, no running in your class, no worries about classing or weather your mods are legal for your prep level. When someone is first starting out (assuming they have no other motorsports experience that might lend itself to AutoX), it is driver development that matters, not all the other BS. Sure, someone might object to running their Mini against a Z06, but when they beat them, they can brag about it as well. Novice class is 6 events or less (or something equally simple). Assign points like most regions do for annual class trophies (not sure if we do; the rules are still not on the web; typically it is something like F1 or other series) to apply to Novice of the year.

I know I am a bit of a different kind of person, but when I got involved in Solo, I did research it on the internet prior to my first event (this is back in 2001, when the internet ran on gerbil-power and there was probably 1% of the content there is now). I undertstood what to expect in terms of how the event runs, what to bring, how classing works and that I would probably not be competetive. So, I just had fun running for the first few events, being happy that I was improving from run to run and narrowing the gap between myself and others in my class. I did talk to others at the events, both in paddock, walking the course and while shagging cones, so I did not feel like I was ignored (I took the inititative, by the way). I did not catch the competition bug until I was at an event where a guy had the same car and tires as me, with a few more events under his belt and I beat him, but that is another story. My point is this, we should try to make people feel as comfortable at our events as possible, stretch out a hand for the new person and guide them if they seem interested, and hope that they find the same joy that we do when we take part in our sport/hobby. You cannot please everyone and if soemone thinks they are entiled to something, they may be difficult to please.

Once again, just my $0.02...

FWR Solo D
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27 Jan 2010 07:44 PM

Really - I thought the rookie of the year was selected? If it was points only, I know of two people who have been cheated out of the Rookie of the Year.

Also, I just posted this on the main forum page for reference:

Fort Wayne SCCA - By Laws
Posted by by FWR Solo D, Today, 10:40 PM in Ft. Wayne, IN Region (85)
-4
Fort Wayne SCCA - Policies and Procedures
Posted by by FWR Solo D, Today, 10:38 PM in Ft. Wayne, IN Region (85)

Hope that helps until website is posted with them.

Cheers

FWR Solo D
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27 Jan 2010 08:27 PM

I have posted this on facebook - per Steve

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?i...4515592537" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/event.php?i...4515592537

http://www.facebook.com/event.php?i...4515592537" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.facebook.com/event.php?i...4515592537">Maybe we can get more input from here to!

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