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Last Post 24 May 2013 05:34 PM by  jcp907
New to autocross again, and I want a streetable autocross ride!
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jcp907
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13 May 2013 08:13 PM
    About me: I ran a CSP 85 RX7 in the late 90s and put that on hold to raise kids.  I have recently found autocross again.  My PAX times at regional events are in the 50th percentile, in F stock, on street tires in a 2002 M5.  I have a lot of learning to do.  I don’t have a huge budget to work with 2 kids in college, 1 in HS, a 1 year old, and an understanding wife.  Regardless, I want to own an autocross car that I am able to drive on the street.  The requirements for this car are:

     

    Must be class competitive and offer some progression

    It must have 4 Seats: a C5 Z06 might be ideal, if it weren’t for this,

    I must fit. 6’5” 255 lbs. Most of my height is upper torso: I fit in a 85 RX7 but not an 02 Camaro

    <30k price range is acceptable.

    It should be under warranty for at least 1 more year

     

    I currently own a 2002 BMW M5.

    Pros: it’s an awesome car, powerful, and light on its feet, for a heavyweight. It has less than 60k miles, and is in great shape.  I enjoy owning it. 

    Cons: it’s expensive to repair.  It’s a 4,000 lb, 12 year old sedan with no warranty and no camber adjustment (unless street rules take effect) that eats front tires.  I do not have much to compare to when I am autocrossing.

     

    If the rules weren’t changing, I’d lean towards selling the M5 and picking up a used 2013 Mustang with Brembos, without the track pack.  But, with the proposed rule changes, I have a few questions.

     

    My questions:

    Any idea how the M5 would compare to the Mustang in FStreet with some front Camber? 

     

    13.10 H was stricken (as proposed): Limited-slip differentials, transmission and differential ratios, clutch mechanisms, and carburetion, fuel injection or supercharger induction systems must be standard as herein defined.  Would this mean a track pack Mustang can run 3.31 or 3.55s because they are options in other Mustang GTs?

     

    Why are camber plates and shocks allowed in the proposed changes, but you have to run stock springs?  It doesn’t make sense to a newbie!

     

    What other cars might you suggest?  I’ll look at the RX8 and BRZ/FRS, to see if I’ll fit.  Are there others I might be missing?

    dannykao
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    14 May 2013 12:35 AM
    I don't see M5 running autox much, so I gather they are not very competitive.

    The problem with the Mustang with Brembo option, you are stuck with 19" wheels. Even the street tire proposal pass, you will still have to get 18" wheels and my opinion is the ride is going to be quite different than R-comps.  V6 Mustang is probably a better choice for street tires.

    If I am buying a street tire stock class car, I will definitely consider FRS or BRZ. RX8 is fun, S2000, Miata, and Solstice are all good cars. You can get enough camber and run huge tires on Solstice and I think that would be a great choice. Unfortunately if you have to go with 4 seats, that will probably eliminate all the car stated above. FRS/RX8 seats are all very tiny.

    WRX is probably another car that could suit your needs, but you have to like the way it drives. Good luck!
    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 10:58 AM

    Danny, thank you for the input!  Yes, 4 seats is a requirement.  I'll have to go sit in the BRZ/FRS.  Are their seats identical, or might one be more roomy?  Anyone know? 

    Buying 18" wheels is doable and makes sense, as it's a one time purchase (given limited 19" selection).  The Brembo package is required to get a 9" wide wheel though, isn't it? Or am I misunderstanding?  If so, can you fit a Brembo package to the V6 car to run the 9" wide wheel?

    Would you recommend V6 because of weight advantage as well as it's easier to get the power to the ground?

    I'll add WRX to the list to look at! 

    Another vehicle that I hadn't considered was an EVO.  No idea on how competitive they are, but they otherwise look like they fit my requirements. Any other ideas are greatly appreciated!

    Grintch
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    14 May 2013 11:02 AM
    The 4 seat restriction is a big one. At 6'5", no one is going to be able to sit behind you in a 2+2 coupe anyway.

    WRX, Evo, STi, Mazdaspeed3, Mini Cooper are all additional options. Look at last years Solo Nationals results (including ST, as the new Street class may change the current Stock cars to have) to see what is currently at/near the front of the pack.

    Optional rear end ratios are allowed, but the way I read the options sheet, a 3.31 isn't possible with the track pack, but the 3.55 is. Basicly it has to be a factory configuration, not a matching of any OEM parts. I think the track pack limited slip would probably be worth having to run the less optimal 3.55 gears.
    47CP
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    14 May 2013 11:53 AM
    FWIW, the BMW is probably the best car for (current)F-Stock. I see them and the Mustang as equal but somewhat course dependent.

    I am driving a '12 Brembo Mustang in RTR and it is locally competitive, easy to drive and plenty of fun on Z2's. I think it will get smoked in RTR nationally by the tiny cars and the Porsche GT Hollis-mobile. Of course, I would get smoked by most of those guys if we drove the same car...

    There doesn't seem to be a LSD problem with the Trac-Loc and 3.31's in my car. We have run out of 2nd gear at a few events, so 3.55 or higher should plan on a lot of shifting.

    The 18inch wheels would save some pretty big $$$ on the Mustang and also allow one to try Rivals. It can already get all the camber it needs so no big deal there. The BMW is going to get a lot better, IMO, with camber, but as many have pointed out, camber won't be such a big deal on street tires.

    DaveW
    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 12:51 PM
    Posted By Grintch on 14 May 2013 11:02 AM
    The 4 seat restriction is a big one. At 6'5", no one is going to be able to sit behind you in a 2+2 coupe anyway.

    WRX, Evo, STi, Mazdaspeed3, Mini Cooper are all additional options. Look at last years Solo Nationals results (including ST, as the new Street class may change the current Stock cars to have) to see what is currently at/near the front of the pack.

    Optional rear end ratios are allowed, but the way I read the options sheet, a 3.31 isn't possible with the track pack, but the 3.55 is. Basicly it has to be a factory configuration, not a matching of any OEM parts. I think the track pack limited slip would probably be worth having to run the less optimal 3.55 gears.

    Agreed on no one sitting behind me, but, with 4 kids, three of them driving age, and one at 1 year old, there are two reasons 4 seats are required.  Insurance premiums, and as a backup to the Suburban.  A car seat will work in anything but a 2-seater.  That's the reasoning behind the requirement.

    Alternatively, we have 2 daily drivers for the boys.  One is an 01 Sonoma and the other is a 99 Camry.  It might be best to go lower budget with an older vehicle for their daily that they lose on the weekends .  But, they won't be taking the M5 on those weekends!   Great...more options, just what I need

    In my first look through the results, I noticed that most cars were at least 5 years old, in most classes (FS, HS, ST FWD, RT seem to be exceptions).  Do you suspect that is because it takes that long to sort a car?  Or the newer cars are heavier or otherwise limited? 

    Thank you for the input, WRX, Evo, STi, Mazdaspeed3, Mini Cooper...I'll check em out!


    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 01:11 PM
    Posted By 47CP on 14 May 2013 11:53 AM
    FWIW, the BMW is probably the best car for (current)F-Stock. I see them and the Mustang as equal but somewhat course dependent.

    I am driving a '12 Brembo Mustang in RTR and it is locally competitive, easy to drive and plenty of fun on Z2's. I think it will get smoked in RTR nationally by the tiny cars and the Porsche GT Hollis-mobile. Of course, I would get smoked by most of those guys if we drove the same car...

    There doesn't seem to be a LSD problem with the Trac-Loc and 3.31's in my car. We have run out of 2nd gear at a few events, so 3.55 or higher should plan on a lot of shifting.

    The 18inch wheels would save some pretty big $$$ on the Mustang and also allow one to try Rivals. It can already get all the camber it needs so no big deal there. The BMW is going to get a lot better, IMO, with camber, but as many have pointed out, camber won't be such a big deal on street tires.

    DaveW

    Dave, thank you for the feedback.  I'll have to research a bit on what RTR is.  There are a ton of classes these days!  It's a little much!  I think the M5 will perform between the SN95 and the 5.0L, somewhere.  I need to go rent a GT and run it and see how it handles.  I like the progression to ESP with the Mustang, but, not so much with the M5.  And there appears to be a very good driver in our region in ESP that may be a good benchmark ('12 GT).  He seems to do very well.

    With the M5, the front tire wear is ridiculous without camber.  That's the benefit I see, if that rule set passes. It's also why I haven't sold the car yet.  And, if there is an improvement in the handling on street tires, that's just a bonus! The other costs of ownership of an M model are also concerning, though.  One check in the wait and see column!  My issue is I am at 59xxx miles.  It's certainly easier to sell now, than it will be after passing 60k.

    Thanks to all that have taken the time to reply.  I'll analyze this to death, I am sure.


    47CP
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    14 May 2013 01:32 PM
    Posted By Jcp907 on 14 May 2013 01:11 PM
    Posted By 47CP on 14 May 2013 11:53 AM
    FWIW, the BMW is probably the best car for (current)F-Stock. I see them and the Mustang as equal but somewhat course dependent.

    I am driving a '12 Brembo Mustang in RTR and it is locally competitive, easy to drive and plenty of fun on Z2's. I think it will get smoked in RTR nationally by the tiny cars and the Porsche GT Hollis-mobile. Of course, I would get smoked by most of those guys if we drove the same car...

    There doesn't seem to be a LSD problem with the Trac-Loc and 3.31's in my car. We have run out of 2nd gear at a few events, so 3.55 or higher should plan on a lot of shifting.

    The 18inch wheels would save some pretty big $$$ on the Mustang and also allow one to try Rivals. It can already get all the camber it needs so no big deal there. The BMW is going to get a lot better, IMO, with camber, but as many have pointed out, camber won't be such a big deal on street tires.

    DaveW

    Dave, thank you for the feedback.  I'll have to research a bit on what RTR is.  There are a ton of classes these days!  It's a little much!  I think the M5 will perform between the SN95 and the 5.0L, somewhere.  I need to go rent a GT and run it and see how it handles.  I like the progression to ESP with the Mustang, but, not so much with the M5.  And there appears to be a very good driver in our region in ESP that may be a good benchmark ('12 GT).  He seems to do very well.

    With the M5, the front tire wear is ridiculous without camber.  That's the benefit I see, if that rule set passes. It's also why I haven't sold the car yet.  And, if there is an improvement in the handling on street tires, that's just a bonus! The other costs of ownership of an M model are also concerning, though.  One check in the wait and see column!  My issue is I am at 59xxx miles.  It's certainly easier to sell now, than it will be after passing 60k.

    Thanks to all that have taken the time to reply.  I'll analyze this to death, I am sure.


    RTR = the current supplemental National catch all class for RWD cars on street tires.    It will go away next year when Street comes to fruition.

    The S197 and 11+ Mustangs are a very good choice for ESP.   That is the direction I would head in a hearbeat *if* we were planning on sticking with this car - we are only running in FS/RTR while I save $ to upgrade the broken EM car engine.

     

    HTH,

     

    DaveW

    DaveW


    Grintch
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    14 May 2013 04:32 PM
    Posted By Jcp907 on 14 May 2013 12:51 PM

    Agreed on no one sitting behind me, but, with 4 kids, three of them driving age, and one at 1 year old, there are two reasons 4 seats are required.  Insurance premiums, and as a backup to the Suburban.  A car seat will work in anything but a 2-seater.  That's the reasoning behind the requirement.

    Alternatively, we have 2 daily drivers for the boys.  One is an 01 Sonoma and the other is a 99 Camry.  It might be best to go lower budget with an older vehicle for their daily that they lose on the weekends .  But, they won't be taking the M5 on those weekends!   Great...more options, just what I need

    In my first look through the results, I noticed that most cars were at least 5 years old, in most classes (FS, HS, ST FWD, RT seem to be exceptions).  Do you suspect that is because it takes that long to sort a car?  Or the newer cars are heavier or otherwise limited? 

    Thank you for the input, WRX, Evo, STi, Mazdaspeed3, Mini Cooper...I'll check em out!


    It does seem to take a year or 3 for the cars to be developed.  Also, new cars are heavier & more expensive.  A lot of people look at thier autocross car as a toy, and potentially disposable (especially those that see some track use as well).  So they like to buy after depreciation has set in and reduced the price.

    Screening the Solo National Results (Stock & ST) for top 10 in class, 4 seat, <$30K, and <3 years old gives:

    BMW 1M (might find a 3 year old car for ~30K)

    Mini Cooper S

    Genesis Coupe

    WRX (older generation car?)

    Mustang

    Fiat Abarth

    Mini Cooper

    Evo (older generation car?)

    325 & 328 (older generation car?)

    Mazda 2

    Fiesta

    Corolla S (older generation car?)

    Yaris (older generation car?)

    Have you considered running the M5 in STX or STU where you can deal with the camber issues? 

     

    Frank05v
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    14 May 2013 04:49 PM
    There aren't any 3 year old 1Ms...

    I've run a first gen CTS-V in STU, while fun, never be competitive, I can't imagine a M5 would be any better.
    apailthorp
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    14 May 2013 05:00 PM

    BMW 1M = BMW Series 1 M Edition, I assume.

    $30K? Wherezat? 

    I haven't seen anything close to original MSRP, much less a depreciated price. A 135i (no LSD, soft springs, heavier) is a lot of fun (my DD) and around that price, but the M version is being held pretty tight. 17 advertised for sale right now, and the lowest advertised price is $58K (!!).

    Robert Puertas
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    14 May 2013 05:20 PM
    Does the e46 M3 become competitive with some camber?
    ada///M
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    14 May 2013 06:02 PM
    I think the E46 M3 is one of the cars to have in RTR already. Find a later one (I forget which year it changed, 2004?) and they all have updated suspension. Non sunroof cars are very rare though. Torquey engine that still revs to the clouds, and it would be an easy transition from an E39.
    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 06:07 PM
    Posted By Grintch on 14 May 2013 04:32 PM

    It does seem to take a year or 3 for the cars to be developed.  Also, new cars are heavier & more expensive.  A lot of people look at thier autocross car as a toy, and potentially disposable (especially those that see some track use as well).  So they like to buy after depreciation has set in and reduced the price.

    Screening the Solo National Results (Stock & ST) for top 10 in class, 4 seat, <$30K, and <3 years old gives:

    BMW 1M (might find a 3 year old car for ~30K)

    Mini Cooper S

    Genesis Coupe

    WRX (older generation car?)

    Mustang

    Fiat Abarth

    Mini Cooper

    Evo (older generation car?)

    325 & 328 (older generation car?)

    Mazda 2

    Fiesta

    Corolla S (older generation car?)

    Yaris (older generation car?)

    Have you considered running the M5 in STX or STU where you can deal with the camber issues? 

     

    STX-  I wonder what happens to it, if the new stock rules are accepted, as is. I also don't like that I would have to go down in size on the rear wheels and tires.  Stock is 9.5 and 275mm.  But, it's an open option.  Thank you for pointing that out.  Currently, STX cars are whooping my butt regionally.  Skill, then weight are probably the reason.  Thank you for the list.  You have given me a lot to research...this is what I was looking for!

    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 06:15 PM
    Posted By FrankL on 14 May 2013 04:49 PM
    There aren't any 3 year old 1Ms...

    I've run a first gen CTS-V in STU, while fun, never be competitive, I can't imagine a M5 would be any better.
    Thank you for that feedback. After looking a little deeper I agree.  I'd get my butt whooped!  I think the M5 would fit into the STX instead of STU.  So, I'd get beat up by RX8s and the BRZ/FRS...F stock looks better   With me in the car, we are pushing over 4200 lbs around the course !

    jcp907
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    14 May 2013 06:33 PM
    Posted By Robert Puertas on 14 May 2013 05:20 PM
    Does the e46 M3 become competitive with some camber?

    Moreso than the M5, I believe. I assume that It's light enough, and probably doesn't have enough power when R Comps are allowed.  But, on street tires-that will limit what the Mustang can put down, right?  Hmmm. The E46 M3 in F Stock becomes very intriguing if Street tires are dictated and these assumptions hold true.  Although, what is accepted as a street tire may be sticky enough for the higher powered vehicle.    I should be able to look at STX info and see what is telling, there as a reference point.  I definitely need to familiarize myself with that ruleset.  And when I do, they'll be changed

    Here is a another more general question:  when does the benefit of a good IRS become less important than a solid axle?  For instance, in the case of the M3, there is less power than the Mustang.  In the case of the M5, there is more weight than the Mustang.  I haven't driven the M3 or the Mustang to have a point of reference.  In F stock, the Mustang is clearly the better car.  Taking traction away from the Mustang change that significantly?

    Thank you for bench racing with me!  You are all giving me great points to consider!

    47CP
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    14 May 2013 07:18 PM
    But, on street tires-that will limit what the Mustang can put down, right?


    This is internet rumor. While you can't treat the throttle like a switch in our '12, you can be pretty brutal with it and not get wheelspin or anything hard to handle.

    And yes, I have extensive experience with much, much, much more power in a much, much, much lighter car (613hp/545Tq, 2200lbs).

    DaveW
    jcp907
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    15 May 2013 12:12 AM
    Posted By 47CP on 14 May 2013 07:18 PM
    But, on street tires-that will limit what the Mustang can put down, right?


    This is internet rumor. While you can't treat the throttle like a switch in our '12, you can be pretty brutal with it and not get wheelspin or anything hard to handle.

    And yes, I have extensive experience with much, much, much more power in a much, much, much lighter car (613hp/545Tq, 2200lbs).

    DaveW
    Dave, Grintch, everyone...Thank you for the valuable insight.  It's greatly appreciated. 

    dannykao
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    15 May 2013 01:32 AM
    Looks like you are expanding your car list, and I can chime in more:

    Evo 9 is great for STU, but to prep it and make it competitive the street ride goes to crap. Not a pleasant DD. I had a fully prepped STU for 3 years.

    Mazdaspeed 3 - a great DD, an awful autocross car. Too much power and not that great of a diff makes a tire killer. I had the car for 6 weeks and trade it in. Great DD though.

    We all almost witness an Abarth almost tip over at the Nationals last year. I think the car is very cool, not sure if I want to autocross it. I would be worrying about it too much.

    Mini Cooper is also pretty good. But if you want to C5Z to begin with, not sure if you will like the power. I had a mini cooper for a year, and C5Z over two years.

    Personally, I would go out buy a E36 and make it into a STX car. I just bought one for $995 and two test dummies drove it at the Dover Tour and I drove it at the PCA event in Hershey PA and had a great time. The car is a hoot to drive and my total "investment" is $3500. I was 0.9 behind one of the fastest STS CRX in the country and I had a bad diff. For the money and enjoyment level I would simply keep the M5 as DD and spend $3K - $5K to get a 325i, is, or 328i and go STX. Depending on the State the car might be historic if you get a 1993. Insurance will be cheap and no inspection and emission. There is a lot to like about a 93 325i/is

    Here are a couple of stupid E36 STX built videos for your enjoyment. Have fun!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQnplbj50yM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njEYwce-QpM




    Dick Rasmussen
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    15 May 2013 08:50 AM
    Dave - Do you have the camber bolts? I may decide to buy some PSS's for my 2012 Mustang GT automatic and play sometimes.

    Thanks

    Dick
    Normally CM
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