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Last Post 03 Feb 2015 08:05 PM by  The_Winch
Would you support head/cam swaps in SP?
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TeamRX8
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16 Jul 2013 12:54 AM
^^+1, only if you drop "street" from the category name ...
HandsomeMike
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26 Dec 2013 08:38 AM
My 89 Vette has a Y pipe back exhaust system, lowered stock springs, bigger front and rear sway bar and a shift kit on street tires. It also has upgraded rocker arms and performance valve springs. My car is nowhere near the maximum mods of BSP and the rockers and valve springs put me in SSM. My car is now even less competitive! In BSP I can swap a completely new LT4 engine into my car for about $3,000 giving me an additional 85hp but can't keep my stock engine with better rockers and springs for $350. I consider the rockers and springs bolt ons being as you don't have to open the motor to do it.

Just thought I'd add some food for thought.
mlane350z
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26 Dec 2013 10:48 AM
Take the rocker and springs back out if it is so easy. Problem solved.
HandsomeMike
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26 Dec 2013 02:30 PM
And have to spend the money to buy stock rockers and springs? No.

You're missing the point. Swapping an entire engine with 85 more hp is legal but installing a cheap engine mod that is a common "street" modification isn't. The rule doesn't make sense. How is an entire engine swap, to an engine that didn't come in the car, a "street" type mod? I can put an LT4 intake on my engine and port the intake and head ports which is way more internal work than just rockers and springs. Just my opinion and I was adding additional thought to the discussion.
mlane350z
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26 Dec 2013 02:43 PM
Sadly, you're missing the point. What is legal on one motor, has to be legal on all the others. So now, whatever gains you made on your LT1, can be made on an LT4 or any other motor. You can't port the heads...you can port match 1" in, not go through the heads completely. I am against the 1" port match, too, but was in the rules long before I started autox. Also, a cam maybe a relatively inexpensive swap for you, but for those of us with 4 cams, it is not. If cam(s) are allowed, I'll gladly mothball my car and co-drive in another category. With all due respect, you are not going to be competitive in BSP w/o the LT4. Adding a cams won't narrow the gap b/w the motors, since both can do it. I would write in violent opposition to any such proposal.
HandsomeMike
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26 Dec 2013 03:10 PM
By porting I meant match porting, thus my reference to the ports. So if I am not going to be competitive with an L98 or an LT1 and only LT4's will win then why does it make sense to put them in the same class? BSP should only allow C4 Corvette LT4 cars if that's the case. Should there not be a SP class lower than the LT4 car for L98 and LT1? Anyway, agree to disagree. And replacing 4 cams to be competitive is cheaper than replacing your whole engine.
mlane350z
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26 Dec 2013 04:17 PM
Not much cheaper. It is 2k+ to swap cams/valvetrain in a VQ35....takes more time than swapping the motor, too.
Z3papa
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26 Dec 2013 07:00 PM
Mike B -- the reality is not all cars are going to be highly competitive without big modifications once you take into account the UB/BD provisions which puts my car in BSP but allows me to get another 100 hp with an S54 engine at the cost of $5000-7000. Consider the LT4 a cheap option for you.
drdisque
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27 Dec 2013 12:07 AM
It sucks that your car is in a faster class than makes sense and it doesn't make sense that you can do a mod that makes your car faster and simultaneously moves you to a slower class.

However, it also doesn't make sense to make modifications without regard for the rulebook and then complain that the rulebook doesn't adequately accommodate your modifications.
mlane350z
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27 Dec 2013 05:36 AM
That's the thing, the C4 IS competitive...just with an LT4. SP is not cheap (which is a separate issue) and the $3k for the LT4 is a drop in the bucket in terms of money for a competitive BSP car.
geezerracer
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03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.
racingfool
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03 Jan 2014 10:03 AM

I pretty much like the SP rules as they are.

I think the bushing rule could be changed.

A delrin bushing is about as solid as it gets. The amount of metal to non metal doesn't make a difference.

The urethane and delrin bushing that are available seem to have more metal than stock bushings making them illegal.

Torino1985
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05 Jan 2014 06:31 PM
Posted By geezerracer on 03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.
Well what year model are you talking about.   2v 3v or 4v    I run  a Mach 1 SN95 old 4v and will be in ESP next year after the STX/STU change which by the way I am not happy about.    Ridiculous moving the non 5.0 mustangs to STU, why couldn't the low Hp guys stay in STX.   I digress.   On a Mach with long tubes and bolt ons  AKA no intake work they push right between 310 and 315  it adds about  10-15 hp depending on if you have cats or not.   I do not have long tubes and with cats get right at 292 with a very mild tune.  Was over 305 with a super lean tune.   I DD the car so not an option we just wanted to see.     To be honest I do not think anyone in ESP is going to matter in two years unless they class the new mustang in a different class.    I have thought about moving all the way to CP with my Mach 1 b/c I can do all the good stuff(rods, cams, heads, an actual working rear suspension) to it without worrying about throwing a rod and thus 5grand down the tubes.  

I think the SP rules are pretty good but I do think there are a couple cars that are very limited production that get away with murder b/c they came with forged rods and pistons.   Not sure why those cars were allowed in when it obviously makes them much more tolerant to bigger numbers without much risk to the motor.   But I am young and was not even born when the rules were written so I am just an admirer.          

 

ST///M
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08 May 2014 02:04 PM

4.6L 3v, 2006.  Car is 301/320 on a dyno jet.  I think that's just what they make, we're down on power to almost every ESP car, but opening up these rules would do us no good either.  As others have said, if you can do it to one engine, you have to do it to all and then were back behind after spending more money.  

Side note, don't be too sad, We tried STX for two years, I'd love to have that two years of my life back.  We went from middle pack locally to a threat for FTD locally and competing for trophy's nationally simply by bolting on a set of 315 Hoosiers over 265 Yokohama Advans.  I highly recommend it, within 2-3 runs you forget what Street Touring even stands for.  

The_Winch
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03 Feb 2015 08:05 PM

Posted By geezerracer on 03 Jan 2014 07:44 AM
In line with this thread, does anyone have actual hp/torque numbers for 4.6l mustangs that are not forced induction and add long tube headers? I run in ESP and as others have pointed out it's tough being down 100whp to the competition. I've done about all I can other than the headers. I can find tests with different brands of headers on blown cars, but none on non blown.

I got 320 RWHP on a 98 Cobra motor with lots of ESP mods (including long tube headers). You can make a lot more power with some S197 motors, but I'm guessing the minimum weight for those cars would be at least 200 lbs more and I'm not sure they can use all that power.
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