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Last Post 10 Jul 2013 05:24 PM by  sirele
Street Tire Prep level vs Stock prep on R Comps
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jcp907
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08 Jul 2013 05:06 PM

    I'll wear my flame suit for this one, just in case.

    If we had the street touring classes broken down the same way (classification wise) as stock, and allow a competitor to prepare to those rules, OR prepare to stock rules, and run R comps, but allow them to compete together (Street Touring with the Stock guys)...what happens?

    If the cars are close enough to compete with each other at these prep levels:

    We have class consolidation leading to more cars per class:

    Newbies  with common modifications don't get moved to a Prepared class, if they stay on street tires

    Camber challenged vehicles (like my BMW) could deal with that issue, and still compete against similar cars

    Those that want to run R comps don't have to jump to SP

    Those that don't want the recurring R comp bills have longer lasting options.

    I haven't put a lot of thought into this, so I ask: Is it feasible?

     

    Jay

    snaponbob
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    08 Jul 2013 07:03 PM
    Simply put ....................................... no.
    jcp907
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    08 Jul 2013 11:15 PM
    Okay, why not?
    snaponbob
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    08 Jul 2013 11:35 PM

    Because the ST cars would kill the Stock ones. And with the newest ST tires (Rivals and Z2s) the gap to R-comps has narrowed. 

    sirele
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    09 Jul 2013 10:16 AM
    Posted By snaponbob on 08 Jul 2013 11:35 PM

    Because the ST cars would kill the Stock ones. And with the newest ST tires (Rivals and Z2s) the gap tp -comps has narrowed. 

    Not all that much actually. But that is a different discussion. 

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    STC/STS and ES are pretty much even, so it could work there. However STF get's beat by HS (STF can hardly beat RTF cars, which is weird IMHO and will make STF obsolete very soon if Street classing gets rolled out), GS cars on R comps get beat by nearly everybody, however they do do well on street tires which will kill the Mini and the Mazda 3. DS might stand a slight chance against STX, but then STX has a new dominant car for 2013, not sure how it will be next year when the E85 gets taken back out. STR is pretty even with CS, BS, but STR is a large enough class all by itself and very competitive, some of the Stock folks might not like to compete with those guys. STU cars could run with their stock brothers and it might be even more fair and less course dependent as it currently is in STU.

    I think overall the idea isn't too bad and it could work very well, but then it would violate everything autox'ers know so far and unless hell freezes over, there will be no common sense applied in SOLO competition.


    Boxologist
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    09 Jul 2013 12:04 PM
    Posted By Jcp907 on 08 Jul 2013 05:06 PM

    I'll wear my flame suit for this one, just in case.

    If we had the street touring classes broken down the same way (classification wise) as stock, and allow a competitor to prepare to those rules, OR prepare to stock rules, and run R comps, but allow them to compete together (Street Touring with the Stock guys)...what happens?

    If the cars are close enough to compete with each other at these prep levels:

    We have class consolidation leading to more cars per class:

    Newbies  with common modifications don't get moved to a Prepared class, if they stay on street tires

    Camber challenged vehicles (like my BMW) could deal with that issue, and still compete against similar cars

    Those that want to run R comps don't have to jump to SP

    Those that don't want the recurring R comp bills have longer lasting options.

    I haven't put a lot of thought into this, so I ask: Is it feasible?

     

    Jay

    I see this with our local marquee clubs. One breaks out non-marquee by engine displacement w/ a bump up for FI or rotaries. The other club classes non-marquee thru number of engine cylinders, w/ the bump for FI. Trust me SCCA classing ends up being MUCH better if someone has the competitive itch.

    Full blown XP Miata vs a Camry? Yeah, great system.


    snaponbob
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    09 Jul 2013 02:58 PM
    Posted By sirele on 09 Jul 2013 10:16 AM
    Posted By snaponbob on 08 Jul 2013 11:35 PM

    Because the ST cars would kill the Stock ones. And with the newest ST tires (Rivals and Z2s) the gap tp -comps has narrowed. 

    Not all that much actually. But that is a different discussion. 

     

    No it isn't. It is the premise of his question. 

     

    sirele
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    09 Jul 2013 04:38 PM
    Posted By snaponbob on 09 Jul 2013 02:58 PM
    Posted By sirele on 09 Jul 2013 10:16 AM
    Posted By snaponbob on 08 Jul 2013 11:35 PM

    Because the ST cars would kill the Stock ones. And with the newest ST tires (Rivals and Z2s) the gap tp -comps has narrowed. 

    Not all that much actually. But that is a different discussion. 

     

    No it isn't. It is the premise of his question. 

     

    Hmm, well then please show irrefutable data that Rivals and Z 2's are in fact faster than RS3's, XS's or R1R's. They are different in behavior, I give you that, but not really much faster if at all. Just take a look at recent national level results and pay attention to how well guys on "old" tires did. (for example Blytheville: 6 out of 11 ST classes are won on 2012 tires) The marketing fueled GRM and other manufacturer or distributor sponsored data is not permitted. So who did real testing and what are the results?


    snaponbob
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    09 Jul 2013 09:37 PM
    One event is proof? Having pounded around on a built STX 328 with first R1Rs and then Rivals, it is hard to dismiss 1-1.5 seconds and a huge leap in PAX standings at MORE than a couple events. Have YOU driven on both of them? Part of the "success" of some of your listed tires is due to no (current) availability of Z2s and Rivals.

    You asked a question a question and received some answers. Apparently you do not like the feed back. Ask just about anyone who has transitioned from anything to Z2s or Rivals. Then, tell them that they are wrong. Good luck with that.
    sirele
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    09 Jul 2013 10:35 PM
    Posted By snaponbob on 09 Jul 2013 09:37 PM
    One event is proof? Having pounded around on a built STX 328 with first R1Rs and then Rivals, it is hard to dismiss 1-1.5 seconds and a huge leap in PAX standings at MORE than a couple events. Have YOU driven on both of them? Part of the "success" of some of your listed tires is due to no (current) availability of Z2s and Rivals.

    You asked a question a question and received some answers. Apparently you do not like the feed back. Ask just about anyone who has transitioned from anything to Z2s or Rivals. Then, tell them that they are wrong. Good luck with that.

    haha really? I call BS on the availability remark. Just checked Tirerack and all ST eligible tires sizes of both brands are in stock. Didn't mention RT at all. I also just mentioned Blytheville as an example, older tires did well at previous tours too. I have driven both of the new tires on different cars and I do not buy 1-1.5 seconds in speed advantage over operating temperature RS3s. I don't need to tell people that they are wrong, the results are speaking for themselves. lastly I made statements and only asked one question in my last post.

    Nonetheless we will be on Rivals at Lincoln for the simple reason that they don't need as much heat as Hankooks to work well, considering we got only 3 runs.

    Still this thread is not just about tires and the OP's idea will never happen anyway for way more reasons then tires alone. So let's move on.

     

     


    snaponbob
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    10 Jul 2013 08:48 AM

    Let me restate my availability comment. All sizes needed to be SCCA legal are available. Not ALL sizes are available to people in various classes. Ask anyone running a Mini. Even Hoosier does not have ALL sizes given that some folks would like a 35 vs a 30, or a 30 vs a 40. 

    My contention that a properly prepared ST car will out run a properly prepared Stock (or upcoming Street) car still stands. R-comps may be worth a second, or even 2, on r-comps, but ST can reduces weight, increase power, heavily tune the suspension, etc. Examples would be any Honda, Subaru, or any other car you can imagine.  

    aansorge
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    10 Jul 2013 09:49 AM
    A local fast guy that trophied at Nationals last year in RTF ran basically identical times on old star specs and new BFG'
    s. I was surprised as was he. Still, new tires require modifying the setup to optimize. One thing that the BFG lacks IMHO is longitudinal grip. They do not brake like Toyos.
    snaponbob
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    10 Jul 2013 04:31 PM
    If the Rivals had not been run a bit, they are sloppy. Ours did not "wake up" for at least 6-8 runs. And during the first 10 runs they got better and better. As for forward (accelerate and braking) we found them to be MUCH better than R1R's after those 6-8 runs. Cornering felt very much like A6s, but not quite as high lateral grip - but close.
    sirele
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    10 Jul 2013 05:24 PM

    We've been running used RS3's all year on our RTA WRX and have been top indexing every event we went to, against lots of people with new tires. I've read about the break in time, but all the newer tires I got to drive on had already at least 12 runs on them before they got handed to me. I like the Rivals hands down, but IMHO they are not much (if at all) faster than operating temperature RS3s (which is a given considering two drivers getting 5 or more runs) and the Z2's were plain awful on that WRX in anything other than cold or wet conditions. As they require the driver to drive extremely precise at all times, which is very hard to do in a blunt force RTA WRX. I've read that they come alive when worn down near 50%, but that is a gamble I'm not willing to take at this point. This is my personal opinion and YMMV. In any case the gap to R-comps on a similar prepped car has not come down nearly as much as some people make it out to be. It is still ~.980 for HS-DS(except AWD), ~.975 for ES-BS and ~.970 or less for FS-AS-SS. There are just so much more top drivers running RT classes making it appear that the tires got suddenly so much faster. Again that is my personal observation.

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