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Last Post 18 Jul 2014 02:19 PM by  Mrsideways
New "Go-to" cars for each stock class - thoughts?
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MrAWD
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15 Feb 2014 08:13 PM
At least it is more than clear that nobody gives an EVO X any chance in BS...

Fedja
TrqlessWonder
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15 Feb 2014 09:36 PM
Posted By Fedja Jeleskovic on 15 Feb 2014 08:13 PM
At least it is more than clear that nobody gives an EVO X any chance in BS...

Fedja

With the street shuffle, maybe it gets a little better, but I got to watch a very good driver try a X SE in B-stock for a solid chunk of a season with more tire (295's) and a more aggressive setup.  Maybe 2 years ago?  It wasn't the car for the class when he tried it.  I think we would have all heard if it was beating the CRs back then.
MrAWD
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15 Feb 2014 10:36 PM

Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/42068' class='af-profile-link'>TrqlessWonder</a> on 15 Feb 2014 09:36 PM

Posted By <a class="af-profile-link" href="http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/37506">Fedja Jeleskovic</a> on 15 Feb 2014 08:13 PM


At least it is more than clear that nobody gives an EVO X any chance in BS...<img alt="" align="middle" class="afEmoticon" src="http://www.sccaforums.com/DesktopModules/ActiveForums/themes/sf//emoticons/sad.gif" style="border-width: 0px; border-style: solid;" />



Fedja


With the street shuffle, maybe it gets a little better, but I got to watch a very good driver try a X SE in B-stock for a solid chunk of a season with more tire (295's) and a more aggressive setup.  Maybe 2 years ago?  It wasn't the car for the class when he tried it.  I think we would have all heard if it was beating the CRs back then.


I have not seen anything in old BS to run close to the CRs, but those are reclassed now, so who cares about them any more beside the AS guys??
TrqlessWonder
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15 Feb 2014 11:12 PM

Hence my reference to the class reshuffle maybe improving your position.  However, if you were looking to support the opinion of it being the new BS/BSR car to have, it should have been at least giving the CRs a run for the money prior to the move, which it wasn't.

Besides, now you have different convertibles to worry about, the ZOK and the MSR, which are almost 1,000lbs lighter than the Evo, and the ZOK at least can hold just as much tire.  When it comes to class changes (particularly with such a wide-ranging one as the street category change), we seem to be pretty good at giving with one hand, and then taking away with the other.

My apologies that my observations don't match your opinion. Have fun with it anyway.  I think we might see some meaningful 12-month reviews of the car classings, anyhow.

MrAWD
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16 Feb 2014 09:16 AM
Apologies?? Not sure why would you do that since we are pretty close on this one except the part about CRs which are not in the BS any more (BSR is another story thugh). By thier departure fom BS to AS, class got softer a bit. How softer that is, is left to be seen but it could be close to 1/2 a second on 60 sec course, which is quite different picture!

So if EVOs where let say a whole second behind CRs, now without them and street tires combo, things are much closer than they used to be.
MrAWD
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16 Feb 2014 09:17 AM
Or we just reclass late EVOs to the slower class!!
93Rubie
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16 Feb 2014 09:29 PM

You will have an advantage in the wet and putting down the power. That being said AWD cars just don't turn well. They are more point and shoot weapons. Case in point: I drove against one in the wet, I was only about .3 seconds or so off the EVO. Next day in the dry I cleaned his clock by a full second. Course type was similar with higher speeds and fast corners and such. SAME tires, both shod with ZII's. Both pretty much prepped to the Street class rules. Similar driver talent/skills. Just to be fair the EVO driver had not drove much this past year and it was a newer car for him. However, he has a lot of experience with AWD cars.

 I think you have as much a fair shot as any car in B Street. I don't think the AWD's will be THE car and I don't think they will be popular. I also don't think the Z07 and MSR will be any threat. Simply because they are SO far down on power. I think the SCCA is kinda fed up with "trunk kit" cars. As am I, they are hard to find, and then turn the class into a virtual spec. racer class like B Stock the past few season with ALL S2000 CR's. 

That being said if you like your car and enjoy driving it. Then run it. I don't think my C4 is going to win anything but I don't care. Its fun to be different, that and if you run well then even better.

Ryno
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18 Feb 2014 10:53 AM
Posted By 93Rubie on 16 Feb 2014 09:29 PM

You will have an advantage in the wet and putting down the power. That being said AWD cars just don't turn well. They are more point and shoot weapons. Case in point: I drove against one in the wet, I was only about .3 seconds or so off the EVO. Next day in the dry I cleaned his clock by a full second. Course type was similar with higher speeds and fast corners and such. SAME tires, both shod with ZII's. Both pretty much prepped to the Street class rules. Similar driver talent/skills. Just to be fair the EVO driver had not drove much this past year and it was a newer car for him. However, he has a lot of experience with AWD cars.

 I think you have as much a fair shot as any car in B Street. I don't think the AWD's will be THE car and I don't think they will be popular. I also don't think the Z07 and MSR will be any threat. Simply because they are SO far down on power. I think the SCCA is kinda fed up with "trunk kit" cars. As am I, they are hard to find, and then turn the class into a virtual spec. racer class like B Stock the past few season with ALL S2000 CR's. 

That being said if you like your car and enjoy driving it. Then run it. I don't think my C4 is going to win anything but I don't care. Its fun to be different, that and if you run well then even better.

I think you are underestimating the power of AWD in the rain. When Hyman was in SSP/ASP we had great/tight battles back and forth until it rained when he moved ahead by about 2.5 seconds per day.

MrAWD
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18 Feb 2014 02:09 PM
Posted By Ryno on 18 Feb 2014 10:53 AM
I think you are underestimating the power of AWD in the rain. When Hyman was in SSP/ASP we had great/tight battles back and forth until it rained when he moved ahead by about 2.5 seconds per day.

You see, this is something that really pisses me off! Racing in the rain changes things for most of the cars our there. For the hack of it, racing on snow would make things even worst. Even comparing RWD vs. FWD will change abilities of these cars once things get slippery. They even change when things get more grippy as well! With all of that, it looks like the only reason for rally cars to be in BS is pretty much for rare times when it rains. Those are only times that those cars have a decent place to play! But, these are the only cars punished by this, which never felt right in my book! All of the other cars are measured by its ability to do what they can do when things are dry and there is decent (or better) amount of grip - why not STIs and EVOs?


CSP21
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18 Feb 2014 02:15 PM
Fedja - to you which deserves to be more competitively classed. The STI/EVOs or the WRX/Golf Rs?


IMO, we already have too many classes. IMO those classes we already have too much course dependency. Not all cars can be competitive, so how do you slice up the pie. I do know from asking that 10 people will nearly give 10 completely unique answers. Then add in car bias (as an owner or potential owner) and you'll find your response isn't alone nor will it ever be.
MrAWD
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18 Feb 2014 03:33 PM
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 18 Feb 2014 02:15 PM
Fedja - to you which deserves to be more competitively classed. The STI/EVOs or the WRX/Golf Rs?

I was expecting all kind of answers and comments on what I said earlier, but not this! What does any EVO owner has to do with classing of the Golf R? Or for that matter, what owner of the car X has to do with classing of the car Y? I though this is club for us who own or have someones else car to drive. From that perspective it should be as important as anything else to give each car owner a decent place to play and have fun. To hear that I have to suffer in my class with the car that I have just because Golf R had to be classed "more competitively" doesn't make any sense!

To me each car has its potential and it is pretty clear that STI and EVO are higher in that compared to the WRX and Golf R (since those are mentioned above) and it is logical to be placed in "faster" class. CS is faster then DS, as well as BS, AS, and SS. So, from those numbers only, rally cars would be much more properly classed in CS (ran less then a half a second behind BS). Since M3s are in there, version with 4 doors is quite there as 4 door on either STI or EVO...so, why not CS?


TrqlessWonder
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18 Feb 2014 03:42 PM
Personally, while I think the Evo is a little outgunned in BS, I do think it's the best fit at the moment. I don't think DS is the right place, which is where the rest of the AWD cars go. However, and bear with me for a moment, I think the best shot for the heavier cars like that, is in a place where really only heavier cars exist. If the most favorable, but still plausible classing is the goal, then I think FS might be the home you're looking for.
MrAWD
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18 Feb 2014 03:51 PM
FS was 3.5 sec behind the CRs at Nationals and EVO can go faster than that - in other words FS would be too soft for those cars. From what I was able to see so far at our local events with heavy BS CR presence, getting down to a second off of their times might be possible...still has to be proven though, so that is a big "might"
CSP21
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18 Feb 2014 03:55 PM
You clearly have some interesting ideas of classing strategy that isn't shared by the current and last several years (or more) of Stock/Street classing.
The Nebulizer
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18 Feb 2014 04:01 PM
Posted By TrqlessWonder on 18 Feb 2014 03:42 PM
Personally, while I think the Evo is a little outgunned in BS, I do think it's the best fit at the moment. I don't think DS is the right place, which is where the rest of the AWD cars go. However, and bear with me for a moment, I think the best shot for the heavier cars like that, is in a place where really only heavier cars exist. If the most favorable, but still plausible classing is the goal, then I think FS might be the home you're looking for.

Has everyone forgotten that Street runs on street tires? AWD gains big advantages on Street tires vs. 2wd. I can't imagine a reason to consider moving the STi/Evo out of BS at this point. Suggesting FS is absolutely absurd - those cars have no business in a heavy RWD class. These cars will likely be rather competitive in BS. There is almost no reason to think they will be less competitive than they were - aside from C5 addition. The CR has been moved out of class. The cars are AWD on street tires. There is a reasonable chance they will be the cars to have in BS. I know that is what I would be running in the class for a Pro Solo.

 

MrAWD
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18 Feb 2014 04:13 PM
Mixing apples and oranges! Classing for Pro Solo should have no merits for classing of cars in Solo2. If they need to adjust things over there to match differences between these two types of racing, they can do it whenever see fit!

As of the AWD cars on street tires, they should be able to put the power down better compare to the 2WD cars. But, power is not that important for what we do here in Stock (sorry Street) compare to the weight of the cars. Having 700 lb deficit to S2k or other little cars is not something that Street tires will be helping and they will most likely hurting the overall outcome! I think it is not surprising at all that most of the ST classes favor lighter cars - not heavier!
Z3papa
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18 Feb 2014 04:36 PM
Posted By The Nebulizer on 18 Feb 2014 04:01 PM
Posted By TrqlessWonder on 18 Feb 2014 03:42 PM
Personally, while I think the Evo is a little outgunned in BS, I do think it's the best fit at the moment. I don't think DS is the right place, which is where the rest of the AWD cars go. However, and bear with me for a moment, I think the best shot for the heavier cars like that, is in a place where really only heavier cars exist. If the most favorable, but still plausible classing is the goal, then I think FS might be the home you're looking for.

Has everyone forgotten that Street runs on street tires? AWD gains big advantages on Street tires vs. 2wd. I can't imagine a reason to consider moving the STi/Evo out of BS at this point. Suggesting FS is absolutely absurd - those cars have no business in a heavy RWD class. These cars will likely be rather competitive in BS. There is almost no reason to think they will be less competitive than they were - aside from C5 addition. The CR has been moved out of class. The cars are AWD on street tires. There is a reasonable chance they will be the cars to have in BS. I know that is what I would be running in the class for a Pro Solo.

 

I substantially agree with this.  This is why you see the boost buggies in STU with higher index and don't see them classed in STX.   Why don't we just let this year play out and see what cars thrive on street tires already.  It's like this every year where the me people want their car to be the class overdog or cry foul that "they don't have a place to play".   As far as I can tell, most cars have a place to play.


CSP21
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18 Feb 2014 04:39 PM
FYI, classing for Solo has zero to do with Pro Solo. SEB/SAC has zero ProSolo consideration when classing is done. Howard does his own thing for Pros.
TrqlessWonder
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18 Feb 2014 05:58 PM
Posted By The Nebulizer on 18 Feb 2014 04:01 PM
Posted By TrqlessWonder on 18 Feb 2014 03:42 PM
Personally, while I think the Evo is a little outgunned in BS, I do think it's the best fit at the moment. I don't think DS is the right place, which is where the rest of the AWD cars go. However, and bear with me for a moment, I think the best shot for the heavier cars like that, is in a place where really only heavier cars exist. If the most favorable, but still plausible classing is the goal, then I think FS might be the home you're looking for.

Has everyone forgotten that Street runs on street tires? AWD gains big advantages on Street tires vs. 2wd. I can't imagine a reason to consider moving the STi/Evo out of BS at this point. Suggesting FS is absolutely absurd - those cars have no business in a heavy RWD class. These cars will likely be rather competitive in BS. There is almost no reason to think they will be less competitive than they were - aside from C5 addition. The CR has been moved out of class. The cars are AWD on street tires. There is a reasonable chance they will be the cars to have in BS. I know that is what I would be running in the class for a Pro Solo.

That's where I think the best fit is. But, if someone were to try and write a re-classing request-type letter to improve their chances... The only places in stock/street where a 3500+lb car has shown to be competitive, is in a class just about solely reserved for 3500+lb cars.  I didn't say it was the right thing to do, I said that's where his best shot might be, were he so inclined to push for a reclass. He could assert that it's similar weight, and he's short on horsepower compared to the rest of the class.  I don't think it's really that left-field to conclude that a cow would fare better in a class for cows, as opposed to one for butterflies.

Street-R still exists for the 2014 season.  Fedja's sig makes direct reference to being on the purple crack.

MrAWD
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18 Feb 2014 07:17 PM

Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/7542' class='af-profile-link'>Z3papa</a> on 18 Feb 2014 04:36 PM
<p>I substantially agree with this.  This is why you see the boost buggies in STU with higher index and don't see them classed in STX.   Why don't we just let this year play out and see what cars thrive on street tires already.  It's like this every year where the me people want their car to be the class overdog or cry foul that "they don't have a place to play".   As far as I can tell, most cars have a place to play.</p>

Ok, lets get on the same page here before we get too far with this. It makes no sense to compare results from rally cars in STU with the rest, where suspension is unlimitted and those soft springs that are the worst thing for both STI and EVO, are replacced with something much more proper. My car (EVO X that is) runs over 1000 lb on each front wheel, while using sub 200 lb springs...you guys do the math on how much improvement would be to use 800 - 1000 lb springs instad...
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