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Last Post 10 Dec 2015 09:16 PM by  Z3papa
Proposal combining STS and STC
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Mugenlude
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30 Dec 2013 12:40 PM
Regardless, maybe if they would stop threatening to change the STC/STS classes the numbers wouldn't drop! This has been an ongoing theme for the last 3 years, leave it the hell alone!

I'm of the opinion that if a class keeps making good numbers that there isn't a reason to eliminate it.

There were 38 "jacket" classes at Nationals this year, STC was the 6th largest (Open+Ladies) class, STS was tied for 11th. These aren't the numbers of a broke class(es). Is it as glamorous as STX (69) or STR (56), no, but they also haven't had the influx of new cars to pad the numbers as people determine the fast car.

STS is the "weakest" of the ST Category, but is still larger than all but one SP class (ESP), one Stock Class (SS), one Prepared Class (CP)... I don't know, there are lots of classes, but neither STC or STS seem broke to me.

Why are we trying to fix something that isn't broke?
hklvette
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30 Dec 2013 03:44 PM
Posted By Mugenlude on 30 Dec 2013 12:40 PM
Regardless, maybe if they would stop threatening to change the STC/STS classes the numbers wouldn't drop! This has been an ongoing theme for the last 3 years, leave it the hell alone!

I'm of the opinion that if a class keeps making good numbers that there isn't a reason to eliminate it.

There were 38 "jacket" classes at Nationals this year, STC was the 6th largest (Open+Ladies) class, STS was tied for 11th. These aren't the numbers of a broke class(es). Is it as glamorous as STX (69) or STR (56), no, but they also haven't had the influx of new cars to pad the numbers as people determine the fast car.

STS is the "weakest" of the ST Category, but is still larger than all but one SP class (ESP), one Stock Class (SS), one Prepared Class (CP)... I don't know, there are lots of classes, but neither STC or STS seem broke to me.

Why are we trying to fix something that isn't broke?

I wrote something similar to that:  "What problem is this trying to solve?"

tkm
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31 Dec 2013 02:51 PM
I wrote a letter last year asking for the normally aspirated STX FWD cars be moved to STC (ITR, 06+ Civic Si, SER Spec V, etc) keeping the STC ruleset (225 tires, etc) and got a big fat no.

It would be interesting to have a fast FWD class instead of having FWD cars splintered over 3 or 4 different classes.

brentglad
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07 May 2014 02:11 PM
I just wish they would leave the Civic's alone... just give us our own spec class and leave it be. It would stop all the complaining about the Civics, and hopefully all the re-prepping year after year after year.
ron
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09 May 2014 09:18 AM
So, is anyone writing a letter on this or are we going to let this fall by the wayside? I keep hearing that there is virtually no difference in the civic vs crx, I would beg to differ. 100 lbs difference plus the crx has a six inch shorter wheel base, which we all know makes a significant difference in autocross. Then there is the Miata which is lighter and has a limited slip and has an incredible suspension to boot. Significant enough that the two healthy classes should be left alone. 
gary p
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09 May 2014 03:03 PM
Posted By coneracer on 09 May 2014 09:18 AM
...Then there is the Miata which is lighter and has a limited slip and has an incredible suspension to boot. 
I think the last STS legal miata limted slip probably stopped actually limiting slip sometime before Nationals moved to Lincoln from Topeka.  It's a non-serviceable viscous-coupling type which is fairly weak to start, diminishes in effectiveness with use, and hasn't been available as a replacement part for more than 15 years.  

Autoxer62
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13 May 2014 08:59 AM

I wrote a letter to the effect of "put the Civic in STS and leave the rest of STC as is".

brentglad
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27 May 2014 06:02 PM
I wrote my letter to leave STS and STC alone. I am still confused by all the bantering about the Civics. The class has a proven car with years and years of development which is why they do so well. Maybe if the people that keep complaining about them would put the effort and time to build a competitive car to actually give reason for this then I would understand, but when you show up with an stock car on lowering springs and monroe shocks what do you think is going to happen?
brentglad
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21 Jul 2014 05:39 PM
So I see they're presenting it to the BOD... This doesnt look good. This class is going to get real messy, real quick. I would just hope they come to their senses and realize that its not in the best interest for all at this point and time. I think they should at least see what happens with the new tire requirements coming out and see what happens. The thing I love about STCivic is that it is a spec class, and a driver class. Build a car to the formula and go have fun.
drdisque
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21 Jul 2014 11:37 PM
Did you notice further down the changes they're making to EP and GP? It looks like they're hoping the serious EF Civic and CRX people just move to Prepared.
SteveEkstrand
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22 Jul 2014 12:29 AM
There was a clear problem that there was no longer a true prepared class for front wheel drive. EP had become DP without Miatas. And GP was a near dead class further hurt by a single limited prep CRX. EP might be fun, but its quite a build to do 100%. SMF might be an easier option. Add power and tire. The additional prep from there is immense, but some power and tire go along ways! There isn't a path to SP. Cars could never compete in CSP.
brentglad
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23 Jul 2014 09:43 PM
Personally if I am building a prepared car, I sure as hell am not doing it in a FWD platform. Also I dont want to spend the money and effort to build a Prepared car. If this goes through, I will miss the only true driver class in SCCA... and SCCA all together. If the car is no longer competitive I will be heading over to NASA to build a TT car. I'm done with SEB and BOD constantly changing everything in ST* and having zero direction as to what the hell they are doing.
jdchristianson
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24 Jul 2014 09:14 AM
Posted By BrentGlad on 23 Jul 2014 09:43 PM
 If this goes through, I will miss the only true driver class in SCCA... 

Really..............


brentglad
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24 Jul 2014 09:49 PM
Let me rephrase... One of the only true "affordable" driver classes.
jwharnish
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06 Aug 2014 07:10 PM

Brent;

I would not give up on the Civic for now. You have made nice improvements and the combining of the 2 classes, I do not believe will change the front runners in a combined class. 

I believe we have to look at this recommendation to combine the classes in a different light, not just a civic/crx question. 

We currently have 101 classes at Nationals this year. That is a lot of classes, and needs to be reduced. I believe the BOD is looking for ways to reduce this number, and if there are two similar classes, they will combine them. The recommendation proposed, will eliminate one class, STC/STS, and make one larger class. (ST?)

This was not a result of competitor input, because neither class wanted this to happen. And I also believe was not the original recommendation to the BOD to combine classes.  I really believe this is the result of class consolidation, as there will be fewer than 101 classes in 2015.  STC and STS are very similar classes, and are consistently close on times. 

How will a combined class look for 2015. If everyone stays in their 2014 cars, the class will still be dominated by the same drivers in the cars they currently have. The size of the combined class at Nationals will be 70-75, rather than 35-40. I believe that will be about it. Big class, more competition, with the same cars everyone currently has, at least for now. I do still believe the CRX will prove to have an advantage over time. Time will tell. 

Just my 2 cents worth;

Jim Harnish

STC/89 Civic (for sale)

  

jwharnish
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07 Sep 2014 08:30 PM

Ok just back from Nationals and I like many I suspect were watching the action especially with regards to STC and STS merger. Both class ran same heat one one the East and other on the West. Weather was present but both classes dealt with same weather for most part. 

top 20 spots with a combined class

1 Miata 122.598                        6 Civic 124.311                  11 CRX 125.225                       16 Civic 125.564

2 CRX    122.977                         7 Civic 124.335                  12 Miata 125.254                   17 CRX  125.660

3 Civic  123.242                          8 Civic 124.567                 13Miata 125.290                     18 CRX  125.886   

4 Civic  123.604                          9 CRX   124.6465              14Miata 125.315                     19 Miata 125.934 

5 Civic  124.226                         10 Miata 124.651              15Civic 125.401                       20 Civic  125.941

Top 20 had 11 STS cars and 9 STC cars. Top finishers each class had STS winning by aprox .6 sec. compared to winning STC time,

A lot of great drivers both classes, so this is a good indication on what a combined class will look like next year if everyone stays with their current cars. I know one competitor mentioned he was interested in buying my STC car, which finished second this year, but in a combined class, he would develop a CRX instead.  This was the point I was making with my previous post. 

Car is still for sell, seriously considering a class change at this point. I suspect I am not the only one one. Combined class will apparently be called STS next year. Probably good choice since I believe most of the "STC" cars will disappear.

 

Jim Harnish

STC 60

davebs14
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07 Sep 2014 09:16 PM
Posted By Autoxer62 on 13 May 2014 08:59 AM

I wrote a letter to the effect of "put the Civic in STS and leave the rest of STC as is".


Kind of what I thought would be the logical move as well. Of course I also thought that grouping similar cars in street was a good idea too but yeah that fell on deaf ears as well.   If they JUST moved the civics then that would give the RSX-S a place to compete and not obliterate a healthy STF class as well. Nothing like a car with 200hp stock that has a world of aftermarket support and weighs in around the mid 2500 range in fighting trim (or better).
xnamerxx
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08 Sep 2014 07:57 PM
I'm going to hold judgement against the RSX-S until I actually race against one drive by a big name driver...which should be happening soon.
ron
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09 Sep 2014 07:40 AM
From what I heard, no matter what you do, you can't get the rsx to handle well. Not sure why and maybe if you spend mega bucks on the suspension it would be competitive.
Ron Williams
ron
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09 Sep 2014 08:30 AM
Oh and my opinion on the class combination is that I don't want to end up third so I'm against it.
Ron Williams
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