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Last Post 26 Nov 2013 10:52 AM by  mrazny
2014 PAX is out
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96SM2
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mitchman
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22 Nov 2013 11:34 AM
Who's gonna be the first one to create a chart that shows if classes moved forward backward? (I'm too lazy to do it)
ron
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22 Nov 2013 11:36 AM
Last year there was a .975 street tire multiplier that didn't seem to be quite enough but was close. If you use last years numbers with the multiplier and compare it to this years street numbers they are quite abit apart, sometimes 7 to 10 percent. I don't understand.
rtp.rick
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22 Nov 2013 11:45 AM
Posted By ron williams on 22 Nov 2013 11:36 AM
Last year there was a .975 street tire multiplier that didn't seem to be quite enough but was close. If you use last years numbers with the multiplier and compare it to this years street numbers they are quite abit apart, sometimes 7 to 10 percent. I don't understand.

Yes, for most areas the .975 multiplier seemed to work quite well.  For some areas it ended up being way too easy.  With a brand new Category, I didn't want it to start out with everything just handed to that Category of cars.

There is a lot of history for what was Stock Category, not so with the new Street Stock Category.  I used as much "good" data as was available to me and I had to start somewhere.  I think these factors represent a good starting point.

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

sjfehr
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22 Nov 2013 11:50 AM
Rick, are those street class/ street tire pax values accurate for good quality concrete?  8 tenths difference between BS and BSR just seems too small a difference for street tires vs A6s.  Especially with S2000CR moving up to AS but still in BSR.
rtp.rick
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22 Nov 2013 11:56 AM

As as been pointed out many times, most events are not run on concrete.  So, your mileage may vary.  The Street Toring Categories have not generally faired well on coincrete, Index wise.  I don't think anyone should be surprised to see that continue.

H's & K's,
Ricmk Ruth

rtp.rick
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22 Nov 2013 12:03 PM

After several have commented to me, I checked with the National Office and, sure enough, there should be a Street Category HS.  I’ll work on that and get it added to the list.  Although, that may not happen until later this weekend, or early next week.

 

H’s & K’s,
Rick Ruth

sjfehr
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22 Nov 2013 12:15 PM
As someone who runs indexed classing on street tires on concrete... I REALLY appreciate all your efforts on this but... ouch, this pax is painful and completely crushing my dreams of finally having a fair and competitive pax for my street-tire shod stock car

 

If the numbers really are that disparate, any chance of developing two sets of pax- one for asphalt and one for concrete?  Or at least numbers with less of a conservative bias?  If your goal is to get good numbers this year to improve on next year... these numbers certainly aren't going to be encouraging many competitive regional drivers to switch from *SR to *S, and you'll likely end up the same place you are right now.
rtp.rick
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22 Nov 2013 01:00 PM
Posted By sjfehr on 22 Nov 2013 12:15 PM
As someone who runs indexed classing on street tires on concrete... I REALLY appreciate all your efforts on this but... ouch, this pax is painful and completely crushing my dreams of finally having a fair and competitive pax for my street-tire shod stock car

 

 

If the numbers really are that disparate, any chance of developing two sets of pax- one for asphalt and one for concrete?  Or at least numbers with less of a conservative bias?  These sort of numbers certainly aren't going to be encouraging many competitive regional drivers to switch from *SR to *S.

As said, most Regional events are run on asphalt.  In that all of this is new, and new tires are coming in to play all of the time, I think it's going to take a (at least) another year before really good conclusions can be drawn.  I'll certainly be keeping track.

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

Z3papa
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22 Nov 2013 01:07 PM
For the grief I given you, I think the adjustments made relative to the differences in street classes to SR is rationally thought out -- heavier, higher hp car classes getting more adjustment than lower weight or AWD driving classes. Makes to me but there will always be those who aren't happy and will spend the next few months trying to argue this out. Silly season begins.
mitchman
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22 Nov 2013 01:32 PM

Rick added HS back to the list. 

MrAWD
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22 Nov 2013 02:10 PM
As it was mentioned above, BS numbers make no sense whatsoever! First of all BS looses dominating car so the class should have softer numbers for running race tires compared to the last year. Unfortunately, it is left at 0.845 for BSR.

As of the B-Street goes, class does have AWD cars in there, but they were never cars to have or those that created the PAX in the first place. Punishing the whole class just because it has 2 or 3 AWD cars in there that were running medium pace for the class makes no sense. By this I mean that if BSR runs 60.000 with the numbers the way they are B-Street should run 61.011 to be even, which is absurd. Even by using the known multiplier from earlier between Rs and Streets of 0.975 we are half second rubbed off of that.

I was hoping that I might be able to run my car in B-Street next year, but that means I will not run any of the Match Tour events, because these numbers are silly for this particular class. Oh well...

Fedja
96SM2
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22 Nov 2013 02:29 PM
Just looking at PAX from this year, it looks like the .98 multiplier was close based on the Top 3 in the Index Championship. .985 would've almost matched Rick's 2014 numbers for FS and DS locally if I did the math right. It would be interesting to see how close those 3 would've been based on this info.
Scootin159
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22 Nov 2013 02:43 PM
FM got a huge hit - 0.496s on a 60s AM course. Given that my other autocross car ("street" GS car) just got a HUGE reprieve (0.912s), that's a massive 1.770s swing in PAX across my garage. Sounds like if I want to win locally next year I've basically had the FM car obsoleted by PAX.
talon95
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22 Nov 2013 03:07 PM
Yea, A-street looks really high too. I guess I can understand being conservative though. Looks like the SSR PAX multiplied by about .970. But we've seen that cars like the C5/C6 take a much bigger hit. Strano came up with 0.950 for a base C5.

This also suggests the CR won't be competitive at all since,

0.845 * 0.975 = 0.824

or even,

0.845 * 0.980 = .828

Still less than 0.833
lowside67
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22 Nov 2013 03:15 PM
I have updated the spreadsheet I did in years past to look at how PAX will change year over year (using only classes subscribed in my local region).

Not a good time to be in a new stock "Street" class competing on PAX!

http://www.uhlmann.ca/hosted/2014pax.pdf
talon95
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22 Nov 2013 03:25 PM
Yea, that's the upside. A lot of the local guys I run against (if I run SSR) are really boned in the PAX next year since we've been using the 0.975 factor.
Z3papa
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22 Nov 2013 04:35 PM
I'm sorry but I've never bought the concept that .975 or a 2.5% adjustment was a very valid target point with the current crop of street tires pushing 1.1-1.2g. The SS adjustment is softest at .980 and the GS adjustment is the toughest at .993. That recognizes that lighter/lower power cars will be less affected that higher hp cars/classes. The assumption everyone had was it would be .975-.980 across the board which would not have taken into account the differences. Some would say STF got the shaft but realistically it only needs to be .24 sec. faster on a 60 sec. course than an HS car but has all the ST allowances.
lowside67
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22 Nov 2013 04:59 PM

I agree - either the RTH or the STF index is out of wack, I find it very hard to believe that statistically on a 60 second course, camber plates, wider wheels/tires, coil overs, tuning, race seats, etc are only worth 3/10 of a second over an RTH car.

Mark Hirt
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22 Nov 2013 05:33 PM
Posted By Fedja Jeleskovic on 22 Nov 2013 02:10 PM
As of the B-Street goes, class does have AWD cars in there, but they were never cars to have or those that created the PAX in the first place. Punishing the whole class just because it has 2 or 3 AWD cars in there that were running medium pace for the class makes no sense. By this I mean that if BSR runs 60.000 with the numbers the way they are B-Street should run 61.011 to be even, which is absurd. Even by using the known multiplier from earlier between Rs and Streets of 0.975 we are half second rubbed off of that.

The number makes sense after all the "normal" S2000 is no slouch and you gain two evil rides the  ZOK Slowstice and 2007 MX-5 MSR. The MSR is a rocket on street rubber, it's almost like the car was designed by Mazda to run on them, wait it was 


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