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Last Post 03 Feb 2015 09:37 AM by  The_Winch
ESP V8 guys have done it again! Nice!
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MrAWD
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25 Nov 2013 11:30 AM

    Just saw the latest Fast track and even though I have heard that proposal was aiming WRXs, just realized that DSMs are actually a target as well. So, after almost 30 years of being part of the class, V8 guys have figured out again that those AWD cars are not good for the class! Pathetic is the only word that comes to my mind right now, but really??? How low this should really go?

    Fedja

     

    Han Solo
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    25 Nov 2013 04:25 PM
    Seems perfectly logical to me. < Mustang Driver
    hklvette
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    25 Nov 2013 04:51 PM
    You mean just like the AWD guys getting mad at the C5 being classed in STU? Pot, meet Kettle.
    MrAWD
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    25 Nov 2013 04:52 PM
    I know!!

    The only thing is that this brings this old memory of long discussions that took place 10 or so years ago. Now it looks like we have new kids on the block that would still rather remove all of the obstacles from other cars first rather then improve on them selves and their cars...

    Fedja
    gary p
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    25 Nov 2013 05:12 PM
    Posted By hklvette on 25 Nov 2013 04:51 PM
    You mean just like the AWD guys getting mad at the C5 being classed in STU? Pot, meet Kettle.

    Put the C5 on the same wheel and tire restrictions as the "boost buggies" and I don't think there'd be much bitchin'

     

    ratt_finkel
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    25 Nov 2013 05:45 PM
    Sorry, but the regular wrx and DSM's do not belong in ASP unless you want them completely gone from competition. Mark may not like my comment, but sometimes you just get beat. I don't see any reason to change a healthy class. Keep ESP the way it is and revel in the fact that there is now proof a car other than the GTA can win

    If anything, this should motivate MORE people to try different formulas.
    MrAWD
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    25 Nov 2013 06:40 PM
    I hope you are not talking of Mark Madarsh since I though he was better than this. Last time we had a good race and he beat me on the second day to take 2nd place after Sam. If he is the one pushing for this, than this is just sad on all kind of levels.

    And I couldn't agree with you more on ASP for DSMs! But, there is only one car that is still in game so who care if two guys get mad over this! Right!
    drdisque
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    25 Nov 2013 07:02 PM

    delete post

    MrAWD
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    25 Nov 2013 07:17 PM
    Really?? DSM are there since 1989 and now we have to find other place for them because someone decided that is easier way to make decent results in ESP? Seriously?? 24 years of class presence should end because of a cry baby or two?
    Silencer
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    25 Nov 2013 08:17 PM
    Posted By Fedja Jeleskovic on 25 Nov 2013 11:30 AM

    Just saw the latest Fast track and even though I have heard that proposal was aiming WRXs, just realized that DSMs are actually a target as well. So, after almost 30 years of being part of the class, V8 guys have figured out again that those AWD cars are not good for the class! Pathetic is the only word that comes to my mind right now, but really??? How low this should really go?

    Fedja

     

    Not all V8 ESP Drivers agree with this.

    Dave


    MrAWD
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    25 Nov 2013 09:08 PM
    You are correct Dave and I apologize to all of those who don't share this idea as improvements for ESP. I should have been more clear on this when I started this thread!

    Fedja
    talon95
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    25 Nov 2013 09:40 PM
    Wow, that is total crap. As was said, the DSM has been in there for well more than 10yrs. I ran ESP in a Talon in the late 90's same as Fedja. They changed the rules then to not allow u/b of turbo's for this reason. I'll be writing my letter.

    Dave G.
    ratt_finkel
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    25 Nov 2013 11:40 PM
    Whoah, don't put words in my mouth. I never said Mark championed this. Just saying he is someone who would benefit from it. And certainly has the clout to help push it through. Mark has expressed to me he thinks there are too many course dependencies with the boost buggies in the class. But I also know this has pushed his driving and tuning to the next level. And allowed him to win, rightfully so, the driver of eminence.
    MrAWD
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    26 Nov 2013 09:44 AM
    Not intended by any means! I remember him in quite opposite way, and I would have hard time believing he had something to do with this!

    Fedja
    ACM
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    26 Nov 2013 11:46 AM
    Is it April 1st already ?


    Charles
    MrAWD
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    26 Nov 2013 11:06 PM
    So, let's cut the crap about this! Here is the part from the above mentioned Fast Track that is important:
    "Comment: The SPAC feels that these AWD turbo cars in ESP are not a good fit. ESP has shown strong growth, nearly all
    of which has been fueled by ponycars. Also, the STIs in ASP may be a more attractive option with the additional UD/BD."

    All of the sudden SPAC decided to bring this proposal out for comment, which has to imply that either enough people asked for this or someone influential decided to make things easier for him/her. So, in either way, how could the rest of us who don't know how this came about get any information about this? Is there a way to know who and how brought this up?

    Also, how members of SCCA could find out what is driving all of this? I mean, it can not be just what was written above. DSMs were in this class for over 20 years and even with bunch of attempts to sabotage its presence in ESP, it remained there all the time. Lots of people that I was racing with in there actually like the diversity that different cars bring to the class, and I do agree with that 100%. Nobody likes the single car classes and it is a common sense that those quickly become boring and attendance is lost before you know it.

    Last time I was actively part of this discussion, power levels, torque numbers, potentials, and all of the other things that you can think of, were taken into consideration, broken down in pieces and then put back together just to find out that class is a healthy as it could be and nothing needed to be changed. So, now after DSM is still the same one and there are plenty of new V8 that came into the class with lot of new fancy features, more power, better torque curves, increased potential, and who knows what else that have improved existing level of those cars. But, they are trying to make it look like that those pore V8s can't keep up with DSMs any more and that they don't belong in ESP any more! It just doesn't add up on any level and I can't believe I am the only one who thinks that!

    Fedja
    mrazny
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    26 Nov 2013 11:27 PM
    Well, it's out for comment. make your comment @ sebscca.com.
    MrAWD
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    27 Nov 2013 10:22 AM
    My worry here is that someone in the SPAC either pushing this crap or enough of their friends feel like they could do it and it all went through! Now, what is the word of few of us who don't agree with this? A letter or two will change things? Especially when nobody seem to care that much anyway...
    mccanixx
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    27 Nov 2013 11:36 AM
    I agree that the DSM's are probably getting the short end. I also know by watching them they can out accelerate anything currently in ESP. That has not necessarily translated into needing to dislocate them however.

    That said: As you know, very well, this conversation never truly goes away and comes up every few years or so.

    My feelings on the proposal aside I think writing is important. Whatever the true agenda may be.
    ACM
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    27 Nov 2013 01:59 PM
    Posted By mccanixx on 27 Nov 2013 11:36 AM
    I agree that the DSM's are probably getting the short end. I also know by watching them they can out accelerate anything currently in ESP. That has not necessarily translated into needing to dislocate them however.

    That said: As you know, very well, this conversation never truly goes away and comes up every few years or so.

    My feelings on the proposal aside I think writing is important. Whatever the true agenda may be.

    Hmm, being one of the two drivers of the only (to my knowledge) national level DSM in ESP, I can tell you that we were consistently out-accelerated to the top of 2nd gear by the V8s at every ProSolo we've been to in recent years - we clawed the time back out on course.  Except this last season where we were out-accelerated and then out-driven too :-)

     

    Not surprisingly, I am taking this rather personally, since there hasn't been another national level ESP DSM in the last decade other than mine, so this is clearly aimed at Sam and I.


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