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Last Post 03 Feb 2015 09:37 AM by  The_Winch
ESP V8 guys have done it again! Nice!
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MrAWD
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27 Nov 2013 02:40 PM
Posted By mccanixx on 27 Nov 2013 11:36 AM
I agree that the DSM's are probably getting the short end. I also know by watching them they can out accelerate anything currently in ESP. That has not necessarily translated into needing to dislocate them however.

Well, regular ESP DSM would typically make 1.8xx short times which would get them to be pretty quick for the Pro Solo from the start line, but Charles's car had an open center diff before with 65:35 split and now he is on the regular one (still open but with 50:50 split), so puling anything in 1.9xx for short time is a great success. 

I remember that all of the WRXes were puling much harder than that. And, when V8s pull 2.1 short time or better, they are right there as well due to lot more power and torque. It is hard to imagine car which max power around 275 and torque right below 300 for the flywheel numbers to outrun that many car in ESP.

Fedja

 

marka
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27 Nov 2013 02:43 PM

Howdy,

Posted By Fedja Jeleskovic on 26 Nov 2013 11:06 PM
So, let's cut the crap about this! Here is the part from the above mentioned Fast Track that is important:
"Comment: The SPAC feels that these AWD turbo cars in ESP are not a good fit. ESP has shown strong growth, nearly all
of which has been fueled by ponycars. Also, the STIs in ASP may be a more attractive option with the additional UD/BD."

All of the sudden SPAC decided to bring this proposal out for comment, which has to imply that either enough people asked for this or someone influential decided to make things easier for him/her. So, in either way, how could the rest of us who don't know how this came about get any information about this? Is there a way to know who and how brought this up?

No.  There's confidentiality in the process for letter writers and that's not accidental.  You don't know if this is the SPAC thinking this up on their own, the SEB jamming it down their throat, a response to tons of letters requesting it, or anything else.

You can argue whether or not that's a good thing if you'd like, but the ultimate fact is that you don't know and that's not likely to change.

 

So react to the proposal that was presented.  Write in with your thoughts on whether its a good thing or a bad thing.  Motivations behind the proposal don't matter.  The proposal itself does.

 

And in the "FWIW" category, I was involved with CP and then ESP from around 2000 to 2010.  If this is the first time you're recognizing that there are pony car owners that don't like the awd turbo cars then you've had your head firmly planted in the sand.

 

Mark

Z3papa
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27 Nov 2013 03:19 PM
Trying to attack this proposal which is out for comment based on attacking a person or the messenger is foolish, especially if you were right in your assumption. I'd suggest instead writing a letter as to the merit of the proposal. The SEB has shown in the past year it has not been deaf to the letters written as it re-wrote many of its initial proposals in the street category process.
MrAWD
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27 Nov 2013 03:40 PM
Posted By marka on 27 Nov 2013 02:43 PM

No.  There's confidentiality in the process for letter writers and that's not accidental.  You don't know if this is the SPAC thinking this up on their own, the SEB jamming it down their throat, a response to tons of letters requesting it, or anything else.

You can argue whether or not that's a good thing if you'd like, but the ultimate fact is that you don't know and that's not likely to change.

No arguing there! I had no idea how is this handled, so this is useful response! 

Posted By marka on 27 Nov 2013 02:43 PM

And in the "FWIW" category, I was involved with CP and then ESP from around 2000 to 2010.  If this is the first time you're recognizing that there are pony car owners that don't like the awd turbo cars then you've had your head firmly planted in the sand.

Mark, even the title of this thread is saying otherwise. I was pushed out of ESP in 2002 for whatever was going on back there, and things didn't get much better for 2003 either (although not directly related to the ESP for that year). So, this is far from first attempt to do this. But, this is the first one that I am aware it made it for members comment level, which is something that I was referring to as one of rarity.

MrAWD
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27 Nov 2013 03:43 PM
Posted By Z3papa on 27 Nov 2013 03:19 PM
Trying to attack this proposal which is out for comment based on attacking a person or the messenger is foolish, especially if you were right in your assumption. I'd suggest instead writing a letter as to the merit of the proposal. The SEB has shown in the past year it has not been deaf to the letters written as it re-wrote many of its initial proposals in the street category process.

You are right and you can bet I will write my letter. Still, if would be nice to know who is/are the whiny one/s!!

Fedja


cashmo
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27 Nov 2013 05:46 PM
it would be nice to know who is/are the whiny one/s!!

"Pathetic is the only word that comes to my mind right now, but really??? How low this should really go?" 
Seems fairly clear to me. 

Whiskey11
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28 Nov 2013 09:58 PM

Posted By hklvette on 25 Nov 2013 04:51 PM
You mean just like the AWD guys getting mad at the C5 being classed in STU? Pot, meet Kettle.

The irony is really thick in this thread isn't it hklvette?

 

I'm not sure I have much to contribute other than I support the move.  I support it because there really are some fundamental differences between the majority of the ESP cars (primarily live axle, RWD) and the AWD cars in the class.  This "difference" comes out quite strongly any time the weather gets even remotely close to limiting grip.  It also comes out quite strongly in the Pro-Solo where within the current SP rules, AWD has a substantial advantage at launch.

 

McCance did really well and I'm glad for him, but with the incursion of BMW's into F-Stock, and the fact that there isn't really any other place to stop on the way up to CP, it makes sense to preserve one of the last few "sanctums" of the Pony Car Crowd.  Ironically that crowd is also one of the largest supporters of the hobby.  ESP and CP are the largest in their category, F-Stock is much weaker but still relatively popular and on those grounds I think the proposal makes sense.

 

I also fear that there is a bit of a perception issue between the Pony Car crowd and the AWD "boost buggy" crowd.  Specifically that a large number of boost buggies flocking to ESP would otherwise drive away pony car owners due to the perception of inequality in the cars.  Considering that the two advantages the pony car crowd has over the rest of the cars used for autocross tends to be power/torque and the ability to put that power down, the addition of a car that can do it better certainly adds to that perception of inequality regardless of the actual partial parity.

 

My $0.02

mtuhro
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29 Nov 2013 07:00 AM
Posted By Whiskey11 on 28 Nov 2013 09:58 PM

This "difference" comes out quite strongly any time the weather gets even remotely close to limiting grip.


This will always be the case, whenever you have AWD cars running with 2wd cars.  The other 90% of the time the AWD cars are at a disadvantage, because they are dragging around an extra set of driveline components.

We tend to get allot of AWD cars at our regional events.  In all classes, not just ESP.  There has always been a good health level of competition, until it rains...


sjfehr
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29 Nov 2013 09:03 AM
In regional competition, everything gets hosed up when it rains anyhow because you can't have all your competitors running in a single heat and thus anyone who gets a little less rain is going to have the advantage, regardless of how many wheels are spinning. And that's assuming the courseworkers manage to get the cones back in the right spot after the chalk disappear.
MrAWD
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29 Nov 2013 09:24 AM
Posted By cashmo on 27 Nov 2013 05:46 PM
it would be nice to know who is/are the whiny one/s!!

"Pathetic is the only word that comes to my mind right now, but really??? How low this should really go?" 
Seems fairly clear to me. 

Haha!! At least I can laugh at that one since I stopped doing this to my car when I was chased out last time more than 10 years ago. But, other people (Charles and Sam in particular) are still forking great sum of cache every year in order to make that car worth competing in and I am pretty sure they are not laughing about any of that if they end up racing against EVOs because of those created this mess in the first place! 


MrAWD
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29 Nov 2013 10:58 AM
Posted By Whiskey11 on 28 Nov 2013 09:58 PM

I'm not sure I have much to contribute other than I support the move.  I support it because there really are some fundamental differences between the majority of the ESP cars (primarily live axle, RWD) and the AWD cars in the class.  This "difference" comes out quite strongly any time the weather gets even remotely close to limiting grip.  It also comes out quite strongly in the Pro-Solo where within the current SP rules, AWD has a substantial advantage at launch.

Thank you for the thoughts on this issue! I am sure that for some people reading this your post will have some effect on which way they would go after hearing another opinion on this.

The fact that there are difference between the cars in any given class remains and no body can argue about it! But, where some people might see this as an issue, others could see it as an advantage and something that improves quality for the class. Between choosing a spec racing class and variety that different types of cars bring, I would always choose the later! Although racing the same type of car brings some other aspects into the play, there are still number of differences between the 3rd gen Camaro family cars from the latest versions of the same manufacturer that we don't even have to bring some other guys into the play to prove the point. But each one these cars has some pluses and some minuses, which is what brings ingenuity into the play and improves the quality of the racing.

Using the rain as something to be reason to class things differently in this case doesn't make much of sense because every single class in here will get reshuffled when these kind of conditions come to play. And instead of seeing at as an issue, I would rather call it equalizer! Than, majority of the events done in the country are done without the rain, so it is still rather a rare thing.

At the end, use Pro Solo as the reason to class cars for Solo2 is rather silly and has no merit whatsoever in this discussion!


Posted By Whiskey11 on 28 Nov 2013 09:58 PM

McCance did really well and I'm glad for him, but with the incursion of BMW's into F-Stock, and the fact that there isn't really any other place to stop on the way up to CP, it makes sense to preserve one of the last few "sanctums" of the Pony Car Crowd.  Ironically that crowd is also one of the largest supporters of the hobby.  ESP and CP are the largest in their category, F-Stock is much weaker but still relatively popular and on those grounds I think the proposal makes sense.

From reading the above paragraph one would almost believe that Pony cars need another wholly ground aside from CP!

But, last time I checked ESP was not a Pony class and there are plenty of other cars in there. The fact that owners of those cars don't come to play or bunch of these cars are way over classed and nobody believes they would have any chance against might V8s is another story. Claim it as a place where only Pony cars have right to play makes no sense! Since there is nowhere in the rule book specified for V8s to have superiority. let's stop making them anything they are not and hurt the others along the way. It is not right any way you cut it! 

Posted By Whiskey11 on 28 Nov 2013 09:58 PM

I also fear that there is a bit of a perception issue between the Pony Car crowd and the AWD "boost buggy" crowd.  Specifically that a large number of boost buggies flocking to ESP would otherwise drive away pony car owners due to the perception of inequality in the cars.  Considering that the two advantages the pony car crowd has over the rest of the cars used for autocross tends to be power/torque and the ability to put that power down, the addition of a car that can do it better certainly adds to that perception of inequality regardless of the actual partial parity.

Existence of "other" cars in ESP actually made some of those V8s actually better and faster. But, there are still quite a few that believe after buying a set of Koni yellows and widely accepted spring rates for the car, their cars are prepared to the MAX and expect to be chasing top guys on every event! It has been proven time and time again that lots of these cars are underprepared by far and only few of those have their work cut out! It is a process that takes time and money! There is no perception that can be justified to cover negligence of these facts. The easiest way to go is to say those "boost buggy cars" are too much to ever beat and that quest is impossible to conquer. Place where I have gotten my shocks has a saying that if you think it is impossible, it is possible you are not thinking and applies heavily in this case. Now, I am not saying that suspension can not be sorted out without triple adjustable shocks by any means, but it helps a great deal and makes a car (any car, pony crowd included) extremely faster once sorted out for a given setup and nut behind the wheel.


John V
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01 Dec 2013 11:45 AM
The best move at the point would be to move everything out of ESP that isn't a V8, live axle car. Just get it over with. Eliminate any chance of someone building something that will have a remote chance if rocking the boat.
MrAWD
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01 Dec 2013 09:00 PM
The thing is that difference between different generations of V8s is even bigger than difference between some of these cars from the rest of the ESP. For example, lots of V8s can't get even close to the 3rd gen Camaros, but they seem to fine with that.

Also, even if they succeed in getting rid of WRXes and DSMs there are quite a few other AWD cars left in there. But, since they don't seem to be a threat at this moment they are not complaining about those right now. That just showes what kind of people trying to pull this off!
John V
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02 Dec 2013 08:27 AM
The wording in the proposal is pretty clear. Anything that doesn't have a V8 up front and a live axle in the back doesn't meet the spirit of ESP. So move them all out. Better to do it now before they start to show promise.
ileagle
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02 Dec 2013 09:52 AM
Holy Toledo Batman!

Time to reclass the S2000 to ASP, it won BSP by 3 seconds!
Maybe we should look at moving the E36 as well, it beat up on DSP by over half a second.

Let's play classing whack-a-mole until all the cars are in ASP.

My next ESP ride will be a Ferrari 500 Superfast.
MrAWD
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02 Dec 2013 10:27 AM
Posted By Cole on 02 Dec 2013 08:27 AM
The wording in the proposal is pretty clear. Anything that doesn't have a V8 up front and a live axle in the back doesn't meet the spirit of ESP. So move them all out. Better to do it now before they start to show promise.

Unfortunately, that is how it looks like! But, I have race with lots of cool guys driving those cars, and I can not believe that all of them are up for this - but rather wimpy few...


ron
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02 Dec 2013 02:04 PM
The proposal to move the s2000 actually didn't go through but maybe it should have, those cars are extremely light.
jfossum
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03 Dec 2013 02:01 PM
Throw out the boost buggies, bring back the BMWs!!! :-)
jfossum
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03 Dec 2013 02:38 PM
Seriously, I can see moving the WRX out. The STI/EVO nearly destroyed the class for good, and the timing for moving them out wasn't great, since the new boost rules kicked in the same year shortly followed by a bigger engine & turbo on the "base" WRX. I don't claim to be an expert on these cars, but it seems you could build a WRX that would be pretty close to the performance of the old STI in ESP trim.

However, I ran an ESP DSM back in the mid 90s, and these cars, while competetive, have never been dominant in ESP. If someone thinks a DSM is basically a 2-door EVO, they are greatly misinformed. These cars should stay in ESP where they have been for the last 20+ years (longer than most current ESP competitors).
ileagle
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03 Dec 2013 04:36 PM
Will the 2015 Mustang Turbo be in ASP as well? I guess the V8 would still meet the "spirit" of the rules.
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